ばか！バカ！　馬鹿ー月！

For me the key is keeping contact with the language. A classroom won't do, anyway I can't tell since I only took a few months with home teacher and since then I've been studying myself from books and internet. That home teacher taught me the basics of grammar and the grounds of the culture.

IMO its the most difficult part of the language, there is a barrier inside your head that makes you think japanese in a spanish way (in my case). Being gross, its like converting word by word into your language: <me><--person<--(converts to know language)<--hito<--ひと<--人. Once you make that "click" you literally enter a new world and think different.
Now I'm like: <me><--人 , I understand it directly in japanese, thinking in japanese. When reading, I understand the idea just like reading english, and most of time have troubles trying to express it in english or spanish (translating is a completely different thing, you have to make an extra effort to find the connection between the two languages).

Since the start I've used manga to practice. Bubbles (short sentences) and conversational expressions. Started about the time of sitting for 4kyû.
The next year while I was preparing for 2kyû I started with novels and light novels. I've read Kamisama no Memochô, Ningen Shikkaku, the Murakami' new 1Q84.
Of course I can't do it without a dictionary at the side, but I adopted the grammar expressions and sentence structures at the time I find them.

Right now (a level between N2 and N1) is enough for reading a light novel fast and enjoy it. Thought at the start it gets slow if you need to find too much vocabulary.

Actually the only references I use is my electric dictionary for jp-en vocabulary translation, and the series of "A Dictionary of ... Japanese Grammar" (the three books) that are really awesome and have almost everything I search for, with several explanations and examples. And for last internet when I find a proper noun or something with cultural references that aren't in my dictionary.

I can attest to rpapo's thing about spanish. I'm a decently advanced Spanish 2 student, and I never actually translate it back to english, I just understand because I have been taught how to think in Spanish. Im fluent to a point, but its not like I can translate spanish books...

Japanese is a very forgiving language for translators really. Many times, words have multiple meanings, and if you use the wrong words due to a mistake of context, it still makes a bit of sense.

Well, we can't very well get fired, since we aren't employed in this in the first place...

I will agree that the only way to gain real fluency in a language is through living it. In addition, real fluency does not automatically give you the gift of translating. Translating is, as has been said here already, an art form. It requires some imagination, because a literal translation will generally make no sense to somebody who doesn't know both languages already. If I were to literally translate Spanish to English, you would quickly get the wrong impression from the thees and thous (ti, te and tu), and some things would come off really strange. Many words commonly used in modern Spanish are related to words that in English sound archaic, but inside the Spanish culture they sound perfectly normal. And that's with a language that is relatively closely related to English as another european latin-based language!

Japanese, of course, requires far more flexibility in how you render the result, since the verbal and cultural concepts are far more different. The way of thinking is different.

Which brings it back around to fluency: Fluency in a language virtually requires a person to think in that language too. Spending time translating in your head both slows you down and distorts your understanding of what is being communicated.

EusthEnoptEron wrote:I stay with my opinion that translation harms your understanding rather than improving it though. At least I did not learn anything from translation except for some English maybe. You force yourself to render grammatical structures that you don't comprehend fully yet (you may need certain pre-knowledge after all) into your language, which may lead to misunderstanding in many cases. Sure, you can go back later and reflect on your mistakes, but if it's wrong, then it's not a good translation anymore.

Well, I contradict myself, though, having translated more than 5 LNs with half-assed Japanese-knowledge already. Still, I prefer the "natural" approach. (Leaving that aside, I feel that I'm somewhat missing the point with this post. Anyway, I need some sleep )

Reminds me of a Pre-K or 1st grader learning about past tense and etc... We knew nothing about writing english past our names, so It may very well be a different language in a sense. Also, translation is as I keep saying, an artform. We aren't professionals, and we are human, so a mis-translated part is just a mistake, and if you can learn from it, it makes you better.

I stay with my opinion that translation harms your understanding rather than improving it though. At least I did not learn anything from translation except for some English maybe. You force yourself to render grammatical structures that you don't comprehend fully yet (you may need certain pre-knowledge after all) into your language, which may lead to misunderstanding in many cases. Sure, you can go back later and reflect on your mistakes, but if it's wrong, then it's not a good translation anymore.

Well, I contradict myself, though, having translated more than 5 LNs with half-assed Japanese-knowledge already. Still, I prefer the "natural" approach. (Leaving that aside, I feel that I'm somewhat missing the point with this post. Anyway, I need some sleep )

Memorizing Kanji is relatively easy compared to most of the other parts of japanese. Really, its tougher to learn words made from almost 56? syllables, and some will be exactly the same reading, than about 2000 characters which will always mean the same thing. Im a bit unorthodox also, I only have single kanji comprehension down pat.(Even then I need to refresh a bit sometimes) I dont know words, and Kana is just a bit out of reach. I use WWJDIC, which is a good resource for compound kanji, and Denshi Jisho. Seriously, I think in 1 chapter, I can certainly say I know the kanji for Cute, Happiness, and Today and write them like a normal student would.(This doesnt mean I dont know anything else, but I can remember those two faster than pretty much anything in my head at the moment of posting)

So translating really helps as a learner, because you are forced to learn the grammar structure, and words as you go along.

lavitz wrote:I understand what your saying, but I think what my professor was referring to were the more subtle parts of speech, such as the way in which things are said / word selection or possibly the puns/figures of speech. Yall did give a couple sites that had some of that stuff I think, However if you didnt know the meaning then youd have no choice but to research it or ask someone.

I completely agree. That's why constant exposure to various media is important. For the record, besides anime and manga and light novels, I used to watch fansubbed drama, learn songs, watch Japanese variety shows (lots of them), listen to web radio (still doing this though). And after a decade, I guess I have sufficient knowledge in those things. Having Japanese friends also help.

Rpapo, I used to do that when trying to sub variety shows for my friends when I was still studying for JLPT2. I have to actually type out what they say, then parse them using my brain and search the dictionary. I sub about 5 minutes in an hour LOL! You are right about the fact that writing it out helps in committing them to memory, rather than just pure ad-hoc check the dictionary and translate.

Well, I guess I have it easier than most of you guys in that I already know Chinese (both simplified and traditional), and despite the differences, which are sometimes subtle, I find it easy to memorize kanji. I do get the yomi wrong sometimes though.

I get two kinds of reactions from Japanese: (1) Wow, you're really learning the language! and (2) How dare you try to translate when you can hardly speak? I agree with the professor in only one sense, and that is that to make a translation that carries every shade of meaning of the original, you need to be extremely knowledgeable of both languages and cultures. But, in my experience, you will then be hamstrung by the limitations of both languages and cultures. And in that regard I have half a lifetime of experience working with English and Spanish culture and language, so I am somewhat used to dealing with those issues.

I agree with what's been said above, that reading comprehension in Japanese, plus reasonable composition skills in English, are the main things you need. If you can learn the recognize when you should be doing some extra research, and where to do that research, then so much the better.

At the moment, I am a rather unorthodox translator. I start with the printed book and create a computer text transcription (into Windows Notepad). To do that it really helps if you already know the ON and KUN readings, if not the actual meanings. If I hit a kanji I don't know (and there are plenty of those), then I use http://kanji.sljfaq.org/mr.html to find the reading and meaning. Once I know the reading, I can type the text into my working document.

Once I have a raw TXT file, I have a computer program I wrote which attempts to parse the text into words, and gives me every possible meaning to those words. Once I have that, I have to piece together a meaning for the sentence of the moment. Each sentence generally stands on its own, provided you've translated what went before it already, as that provides the context (VERY important in Japanese).

Slowly, almost by osmosis, this process is burning the kanji and their meanings into my brain. And it's a little more fun than trying to memorize a dictionary first.

I don't exactly agree with your professor. If you have composition proficiency, you most certainly have comprehension proficiency, but not necessary the other way round. It's just like if you don't use a certain language for a long time, you can't speak as fluently, searching for the right words at times. But if another were to speak it, you can still comprehend perfectly. However, with good editors, you don't need to be super fluent. They will be your thesaurus and paraphrasers.

@everyone
hmmm Thanks for the input.

@ larethian
I understand what your saying, but I think what my professor was referring to were the more subtle parts of speech, such as the way in which things are said / word selection or possibly the puns/figures of speech. Yall did give a couple sites that had some of that stuff I think, However if you didnt know the meaning then youd have no choice but to research it or ask someone. For me at least, sometimes when Im watching subbed anime ill hear a character say something and the sub will read something that communicates basically what was said but I would understand the comment in japanese slightly different then the translation given in english,and while Id admit that the person subbing the anime probably has way more experience and proficiency with the language then I have, Im sure that is getting in to what I said earlier about how two people would translate something completely the same.

Hmm, I like the language for those things too, but Im a bit more on the how awesome would it be to just know one of the hardest languages for english speakers?

well, I'm actually less interested in the language itself. more interested in the content and culture, and girls as well.

Well, you realize the American Compulsory Education System forces me to learn an uninteresting subject of English...

Poke2201 wrote:@Larethian: Interest is key to learning, amiright?

of course, isn't that the key to learning anything?

larethian wrote:I don't exactly agree with your professor. If you have composition proficiency, you most certainly have comprehension proficiency, but not necessary the other way round. It's just like if you don't use a certain language for a long time, you can't speak as fluently, searching for the right words at times. But if another were to speak it, you can still comprehend perfectly. However, with good editors, you don't need to be super fluent. They will be your thesaurus and paraphrasers.

To translate from Japanese to English, you need to be able compose English sentences proficiently, a degree of essay writing and paraphrasing skills, which I somewhat lack. And with regards to Japanese, you only need comprehension proficiency. For me, I've self-studied Japanese since 1999, albeit struggling at times. Then I started taking lessons in 2003, with oral and essay writing (short ones though) components. I stopped around 2008 after clearing JLPT2. All the while I've been watching anime. My first Japanese manga (with the aid of Denshi Jisho) was Detective Academy Q, and it was tough. And my first light novel was Suzumiya Haruhi in 2007. Translation was never a goal for my studies, I study just for pure interest. And like I mentioned before, grammar foundation is especially critical to learning new vocab fast through sources outside of the classroom. Well since I already know Chinese, it's easy to memorize and write kanji. I cannot really say accurately at what level you will be able to translate. you will figure it out as you read light novels.

@lavitz: Note that Light Novel/Manga/Anime Japanese is NOT normal everyday talking japanese. Just putting that out there. But it is pretty close to it, or so I heard, and apparently its easy to pick out japanese learners through anime and the japanese learners through other means.

@Larethian: Interest is key to learning, amiright?

I don't exactly agree with your professor. If you have composition proficiency, you most certainly have comprehension proficiency, but not necessary the other way round. It's just like if you don't use a certain language for a long time, you can't speak as fluently, searching for the right words at times. But if another were to speak it, you can still comprehend perfectly. However, with good editors, you don't need to be super fluent. They will be your thesaurus and paraphrasers.

To translate from Japanese to English, you need to be able compose English sentences proficiently, a degree of essay writing and paraphrasing skills, which I somewhat lack. And with regards to Japanese, you only need comprehension proficiency. For me, I've self-studied Japanese since 1999, albeit struggling at times. Then I started taking lessons in 2003, with oral and essay writing (short ones though) components. I stopped around 2008 after clearing JLPT2. All the while I've been watching anime. My first Japanese manga (with the aid of Denshi Jisho) was Detective Academy Q, and it was tough. And my first light novel was Suzumiya Haruhi in 2007. Translation was never a goal for my studies, I study just for pure interest. And like I mentioned before, grammar foundation is especially critical to learning new vocab fast through sources outside of the classroom. Well since I already know Chinese, it's easy to memorize and write kanji. I cannot really say accurately at what level you will be able to translate. you will figure it out as you read light novels.