Debates

[ainsoph9]

Yes, there are, but the same could be said of other countries/alliances as well.

[Mystes]

Which are?

[ainsoph9]

The EU and UN for one. Some say that the Vatican is this as well, but I think is ridiculous.

[Mystes]

Though the EU and the UN aren't countries by themselves.

[ainsoph9]

I used the word "alliances" for that purpose.

[Khaleel]

Second: Communism is not the big bad evil you make it out to be. The entire idea was equal rights for everyone. The only issue is that Leaders become corrupt, and no one knows how to follow proper Marxist Communism. The best example would have to have been Russia, due to the fact Stalin did honestly prompt "protection" for all (no matter how rash), while China and North Korea abuse it to be "worship your god emperor"

It's something really strange a book propose equality with revolution. After all, Kill for a dream is ok, right?

Brazil was between 64-89' a Ditacturship with this slogan: "Brazil. Love it or Get Out"

Artists, Communists, Liberals and common persons were arrested. Some, tortured.

To me, discuss something like "Capitalism vs Socialism" in Brazil is useless. Where we going making something like that? Marx lived between 1818-1893. Exactly in the second industrial revolution (1850-1870). He lived in a world of weak syndicates, much people living in farms and almost no labor rights. Today is a diferent World. Tomorrow will be a diferrent world. Today the proletariat have humans rights, work for the govern is the "best thing in the world!1!" and if you ask to any teenager: "You want to go farm, plant yor own food or to a apartament, work for _____________(Petrobras, Vale or any commoditty company)

He will say: "When I start?" or, better, "How much you will pay me?"

Of course, i am not a Communist neither a capitalist extremist. I don't need to go much far in Asia, Africa and even "Latin"(Seriously, this is something really stupid. What I have in common with voodoo practitioners in Haiti or Peronistas in Argentina? Americans and Canadians call themselfs "Anglo-Saxon Americans"?) America to see what is inequality, violence and near-slave labor.

[HexOmega]

Well, the point of America is you are indeed allowed to think those kinds of things, so keep living the dream...lol

[ainsoph9]

To me, discuss something like "Capitalism vs Socialism" in Brazil is useless. Where we going making something like that? Marx lived between 1818-1893. Exactly in the second industrial revolution (1850-1870). He lived in a world of weak syndicates, much people living in farms and almost no labor rights. Today is a diferent World. Tomorrow will be a diferrent world. Today the proletariat have humans rights, work for the govern is the "best thing in the world!1!" and if you ask to any teenager: "You want to go farm, plant yor own food or to a apartament, work for _____________(Petrobras, Vale or any commoditty company)

He will say: "When I start?" or, better, "How much you will pay me?"

Of course, i am not a Communist neither a capitalist extremist. I don't need to go much far in Asia, Africa and even "Latin"(Seriously, this is something really stupid. What I have in common with voodoo practitioners in Haiti or Peronistas in Argentina? Americans and Canadians call themselfs "Anglo-Saxon Americans"?) America to see what is inequality, violence and near-slave labor.

While the picture you paint is nice to an extent, the problem is that reality is not always that way. Sadly, sweat shops and child labor still exist in the world, and many governments and authorities of the world are corrupt. Labor rights in many countries are practically taken for grants, but other countries (i.e., in parts of Africa and Asia) only have this as a dream on the horizon at best.

As for Americans and Canadians calling themselves "Anglo-Saxon Americans," that is the first time I have heard that one. I live in the heart of the United States, and we NEVER call each other that or refer to any racial group as that either. So, I am genuinely curious where you heard this expression.

I do not understand what you mean by "America to see what is inequality, violence and near-slave labor" either.

[Silimir]

Well America isn't perfect. Seeing inequality, violence and near-slave labor is not rare, where ever you go.

People may call me anglo-saxon outside of America, but I will always consider myself canadian quebecois.

I didn't read all the posts, but are you talking about the american/USA dream? The one where people are all equal, and are rich, and doesn't get bet up, and are just happy?

Even if we are talking of all these nice thing, we always face the same dilemma... one day we will die and all this will have no more importance. And As my teacher used to say, what is the meaning of living? (maybe he was in a depression?) Is it death... or living the best live we can, or bring a change to the humanity, or at least contribute in anyway at it, is it living for a dream, is it working for someone and then die, is it... At the end of your life, what will you be able to say about your life?

As Brazil, I sometime think that it is useless of talking about Capitalism... Socialism... can we really bring a change at it and one day really all live happy and die in peace?

A nice debate is: Why is their corruption? Why some people want it? Is it because they consider they have only them to think about and making bad thing to others isn't important because it is not them?

[ainsoph9]

Silimir, if I understand correctly, the question you are asking is, "Why does evil exist?" on a more fundamental level. I am going to flip your question around and ask, "Why does good exist?" People assume that evil or corruption or whatever you want to call it is the problem. It is a problem, but it is not as nearly as problematic as the problem of good. What should make anyone want to something completely selfless or that betters anything? Viewed this way, really nothing makes people want to do anything good in everyday life for "secular" reasons alone. "Street" wisdom is that people just do whatever to get what they want out of life and to heck with everyone else. Although one can argue that people do not do this to prevent the destruction of humanity or whatever, the reason for doing so is still ultimately selfish. "I do not do action x, y, or z because it will mean that I will die or suffer a loss." This has nothing to do with being good. Rather, we see evil and corruption as the norm and good as the anomaly this way.

[Khaleel]

While the picture you paint is nice to an extent, the problem is that reality is not always that way. Sadly, sweat shops and child labor still exist in the world, and many governments and authorities of the world are corrupt. Labor rights in many countries are practically taken for grants, but other countries (i.e., in parts of Africa and Asia) only have this as a dream on the horizon at best.

Yep, I agree with you.


Well, the origin of "Anglo-Saxon" American is because the two inefficient definitions. First, Latin America. "Latin America" was a term utilized by the French Monarchy to approach the Mexican Monarchy (very short period in Mexican History, someone from here can talk better about that) and the others nations of Central America and South America.

Something like "Hey, we all talk a languages born from latin, we have something nice in common!" for some reason, that term keep existing even after the end of French Imperie, was adopted by the own "latin" americans and used in anti-american speeches "We are all latin americans! We are all friends! Our cultures are almost the same!". A clear ignorance about the term and geography. And of course, a invisible threaten is always the best.

About the "all is blame of americans": That is a very unfair and lamentable phrase. Most often, these people do not bother to read about the history of north america, not trampled in the U.S. or Canada to see what we have to learn about how to make good education and justice systems.

Soo, now in our schools we learn the existence of two Americas, The Continent Divided by social and economic factors: Anglo Saxon America and Latin America. Stupid, I know. But what I can do? The education problem in Brazil is more deep then that.

Actually My phrase was "Latin"(Seriously, this is something really stupid. What I have in common with voodoo practitioners in Haiti or Peronistas in Argentina? Americans and Canadians call themselfs "Anglo-Saxon Americans"?) America [...]" I forgot the parethenses on "America". I was trying to say "Latin America".

A nice debate is: Why is their corruption? Why some people want it? Is it because they consider they have only them to think about and making bad thing to others isn't important because it is not them?

Sorry, if I am making a mistake, but here government and corruption are synonymous.



A good exemple of corruption: You are a cop and have the right to fix your police car, but you friend is the mechanic, soo you ask for a little more money from the police central to buy piece X. Your friend fix the police car (of course, in paper is written "piece x was bought and used") and the extra money was divided by you and your friend. Everyone is now happy and nobody will make futher questions.

If you say "Man, that's sucks" I will say "I agree."

But in here in my country, do things like that is almost normal because is "Fair, the government stole millions!". The civil population was corrupted. What expect for politics?

A simple comparasion: The corruption perceptions index.

10 Canada
24 United States
54 Kuwait
43 South Korea
44 Brunei
57 Namibia
57 Saudi Arabia
73 Brazil

When be corrupt is somenthing accept, is really hard to change...

[Mystes]

Canada in 10th? Should be somewhere near 60-70.

[Khaleel]

Canada in 10th? Should be somewhere near 60-70.

If you said that, imagine Brazil man...

I take US, Canada and other countries like exemples to follow.

[Silimir]

Silimir, if I understand correctly, the question you are asking is, "Why does evil exist?" on a more fundamental level. I am going to flip your question around and ask, "Why does good exist?" People assume that evil or corruption or whatever you want to call it is the problem. It is a problem, but it is not as nearly as problematic as the problem of good. What should make anyone want to something completely selfless or that betters anything? Viewed this way, really nothing makes people want to do anything good in everyday life for "secular" reasons alone. "Street" wisdom is that people just do whatever to get what they want out of life and to heck with everyone else. Although one can argue that people do not do this to prevent the destruction of humanity or whatever, the reason for doing so is still ultimately selfish. "I do not do action x, y, or z because it will mean that I will die or suffer a loss." This has nothing to do with being good. Rather, we see evil and corruption as the norm and good as the anomaly this way.

In a way you are saying that things that are considered bad like corruption are the norm of life being... Yes I understand what you are saying when you tell: selfishness is necessary so that everyone can live their own life and die being happy... but isn't it bringing inequality... or things that can affect others... I understand that this is the way life goes on... but isn't it against democracy and what people always extol?

@kira and khan (adopted thanks to kira ^^): Though Canada (with Quebec in it) should be in the top 5

Sorry, if I am making a mistake, but here government and corruption are synonymous.

Same in Quebec LOL [+ collusion]

[ainsoph9]

@Khaleel: It sounds like the way history and geography is taught in Brazil is a(n) (over)reaction to various parts of history and expressions used. I know that many Central and South Americans are offended when people refer to the United States as "America," forgetting that other countries make up America as a whole. Does this have to do anything with it you think?

In a way you are saying that things that are considered bad like corruption are the norm of life being... Yes I understand what you are saying when you tell: selfishness is necessary so that everyone can live their own life and die being happy... but isn't it bringing inequality... or things that can affect others... I understand that this is the way life goes on... but isn't it against democracy and what people always extol?

It is against democracy in a sense, although many times people just vote for their own selfish reasons. Your comments and question actually just goes on to further prove what I am saying. I am not saying this to make you "lose faith in mankind." Rather, I only say this to promote some thought because forces us to re-evaluate our assumptions about good and evil. As indicated above, good would not allow for any injustice and evil. For good to be supreme, it would require a standard that everyone follow without any deviation. This is not our current reality though. Evil does exist and is sadly oftentimes closer to the "norm." This leaves people in a not-so-ideal situation, which must be dealt with. We say good is the solution, but how do we even know what good is, let alone evil? Our conscience does help here, but even that can be "corrupted." So, how do people derive and understand good and evil?