Cliches

[b0mb3r]

You know them, you see them, and they're everywhere in the anime world. Either you see tsudere going "kyahh" when boys look at their underwear or have undecisive male lead or how most setting are highschool or how there is always a beach episode, etc. They also act as gimmicks, plot-movers, and such.

After I finished watching Durarara I realize a bit how different it was from other animes. It doesn't go chibi mode or have those angry blood vein popping or fanservice. Art-wise it was simple and use a grey tonality color palette that I am not used to. It simply involves multiple characters that drives the story through their many different perspectives.

I wonder why we don't see much originality in the anime world. I may be late to notice this I am seeing a "stale" the more I watch recent anime. Meaning I feel like I am watching the same thing twice somewhere else.

So there are two reasons why I brought this up:

1. To start a discussion about the issue why anime these days are boring and repetitive.
2. Imagining a hypothetical situation where you do have absolutely control over the industry what would you change?

I also wish for others to bring up the cliches you guys see and how certain anime itself address them or destroys them. For example:

In mecha we see alot of angst young boys that throw themselves in unbelievable situation where they are chosen and are incredibly able to pilot an unknown secret prototype robot. To me the best mecha anime was Gundam 08MS Team. What drove the show was again the characters. When I first saw it I actually care about the characters and not about overzealous crazy mech that shoots thousands of lasers killing human beings in space explosion apathetically. To me Gundam and war literally what drove the characters forward. It shows little neat details about how they were trying to fix the gundams as mechanics and not as Newtypes.

Another thing I want to see more in the anime industry is a more east/west art collaboration. Shows like Teen Titan and The Batman falls flat when American try to imitate anime style. Heroman is the current east/west project that I don't quite like. The only western part of that show is that the writer is Stan Lee, everything else is BONES. Yes I know if you guys mention Animatrix, Halo Legends, and Batman Gotham Knight they are another east/west projects. But is mostly japanese artisitc interpretation of western products. I sort of want a project that involves a Western design with Eastern Animation. There are only two shows that I know are successful.

1. Avatar: The Last Airbender
2. HBO Series: Spawn

What's incredible about these series is that the designs and character are supplied by Americans. They go to the east for people to animated them. When first saw Airbender I thought is just another anime imported from japan with horrible dubbing. Instead I saw many things that don't point out being anime. Color palette, art direction, pacing, etc. Heck I even watched the Japanese dub and it doesn't seem anime enough to be anime. If you have a chance I would highly recommend you check out both of these series.

[ShadowZeroHeart]

Regarding the question about the slate, its probably due to the simple logic of supply and demand. Supply without demand is a pure waste of money, time and effort. Demand is the best engine for supply. So heres the question, we all know that there is a demand for the currently so very common anime plots and stories, whereas new and unique ideas may not receive enough attention, nor generate the interest that you would want. In such cases, do you really want to put your money, your time and risk your business into this new area? As an audience, you would want changes, but if the changes are not as good as you expect, you can easily toss it away. On the other hand, if you are a company, you cant really say "Hey, i guess this cant work out afterall! lets abandon this project" after easily spending tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions, without any profit. In short, they dont wanna risk it for the small minority, but satisfy the big majority for their best benefit.

As for the absolute control... Not good in this field, and i have no idea what to change... so I wont discuss this... sorry?

[b0mb3r]

So do you think a gradual change of "taste" within demand is a method, instead of greatly investing a new idea and project?

[ShadowZeroHeart]

So do you think a gradual change of "taste" within demand is a method, instead of greatly investing a new idea and project?

Yes, that is one method. Another method is someone proving that other ideas can create even greater demand. Example, if someone, or some company, creates a new anime that is unlike the common ones we see these days, AND it creates a big uproar. In that case, they just HAVE to start looking into how it is popular, and trying out new ideas to try to follow suit. But no matter what, someone has to break the calm and bring in the storm in such a case.

[b0mb3r]

The method I mention before came from watching B Gata H Kei. While is stereotypical with weak male lead, evil ojou-sama, innocent clumsy girl, etc in a school setting. The major difference is about a horny girl who wants to sleep with 100 guys. It bring sort of a fresh air implying that not only guys are on hormones but so are girls. Though again it has to fall into the stereotype this is a gradual change I've seen.

Another good example is Seitokai Yakuindomo. Usually comedy surround itself around slice of life and random situations. Here there is so much subtle sexual jokes with the male lead giving dead-pan comments is also different. Here it shows girl character expressing themselves by talking of sexual topics.

I think the most important factor I came to learn from these two is one very obvious look: manga. I guess is important to find a very unique manga or light novel to bring the industry. Though the risk you say about new project is definite. What I realize from my observation is how many seinen do we see animated? How many anime do we see sex as "casual" and dwell in darker human relationship? Very little I say. The one that comes to mind recently is Rainbow. Is about 6 juvenile boys that takes place in prison in post WWII Japan. The theme are dark and you obviously feel for those characters.

This is another method I believe in. Anime industry need to invest on more seinen mangas because there are so many popular ones why not? The only danger I see is that anime may become too serious but is a small risk.

[ben1234]

Let's see if I can get this down accurately:

1) Fan subbing and bad economy brings in lower revenue for American publishers
2) Less revenue means that publishers can't pay stuidos and producers as much as they did in the past for the licensing fee
3) This limits the money producers and studios can put into their budgets for paychecks and that fee they pay writers and magazines to animate manga or light novels
4) A smaller budget for paychecks mean that studios usually can't afford big name directors and writers at the same time as talented voice actors/singers (eg. Angel Beats and Mayoi Neko). This leaves us with 2 basic paths:

5a) They go with the expensive writer and/or director. So we'll be seeing inconsistencies in animation (eg. Kanade's constant height changes in Angel Beats) and less talented voice actors (aka. the ones that make ears bleed)

or

5b) They go with the cheaper director and/or writer and bring in a highly talented music/animation/voice team (eg. Gonzo and Xebec). This leads to the generic crap we see all the time that are packed with wasted voice talent

6) More harem crap means less people are likely to buy the DVDs and other merchandise when they probably have a similar series in their collection, so they resort to downloading subs to save money for the better stuff.
7) Vicious circle continues until companies like Gonzo go bankrupt and the market is saturated even more with generic crap

And yes, there's more than 2 options they can go with but they usually end with a similar result

[ShadowZeroHeart]

Let's see if I can get this down accurately:

1) Fan subbing and bad economy brings in lower revenue for American publishers
2) Less revenue means that publishers can't pay stuidos and producers as much as they did in the past for the licensing fee
3) This limits the money producers and studios can put into their budgets for paychecks and that fee they pay writers and magazines to animate manga or light novels
4) A smaller budget for paychecks mean that studios usually can't afford big name directors and writers at the same time as talented voice actors/singers (eg. Angel Beats and Mayoi Neko). This leaves us with 2 basic paths:

5a) They go with the expensive writer and/or director. So we'll be seeing inconsistencies in animation (eg. Kanade's constant height changes in Angel Beats) and less talented voice actors (aka. the ones that make ears bleed)

or

5b) They go with the cheaper director and/or writer and bring in a highly talented music/animation/voice team (eg. Gonzo and Xebec). This leads to the generic crap we see all the time that are packed with wasted voice talent

6) More harem crap means less people are likely to buy the DVDs and other merchandise when they probably have a similar series in their collection, so they resort to downloading subs to save money for the better stuff.
7) Vicious circle continues until companies like Gonzo go bankrupt and the market is saturated even more with generic crap

And yes, there's more than 2 options they can go with but they usually end with a similar result

It sounds logical, but wrong. Reason being the Japanese anime and manga industry does not rely that much on the overseas market. Its revenue comes from advertisements, and merchandise, which is largely from its own Japanese population. So from (3) onwards, it starts going wrong. For example, Mayoi Neko had different directors for each episode... So if they really wanna save on their budget, won't having just ONE director be cheaper? And regarding (5a), with a single writer/director, there should be LESS inconsistencies.

Second, regarding the writer, anime these days are generally from manga or novels, thus the original draft is there. So its basically up to the director to bring it all out. And the heavy harem contents, as mentioned in (6) is because of the original story, the manga or novel, would have such plots in order to grab their own audience, and to create more story.

The method I mention before came from watching B Gata H Kei. While is stereotypical with weak male lead, evil ojou-sama, innocent clumsy girl, etc in a school setting. The major difference is about a horny girl who wants to sleep with 100 guys. It bring sort of a fresh air implying that not only guys are on hormones but so are girls. Though again it has to fall into the stereotype this is a gradual change I've seen.

Another good example is Seitokai Yakuindomo. Usually comedy surround itself around slice of life and random situations. Here there is so much subtle sexual jokes with the male lead giving dead-pan comments is also different. Here it shows girl character expressing themselves by talking of sexual topics.

I think the most important factor I came to learn from these two is one very obvious look: manga. I guess is important to find a very unique manga or light novel to bring the industry.

Regarding this issue, without the dark atmosphere, I would like to bring your attention to one anime which I believe made quite a big change recently, thus the anime these days. The famous "Lucky Star". Before this, the number of animes that are based upon 4-komas are way lower. And yet, with its success, the demand for such stories and ideas are proven, thus the increase in the number of 4-komas being animated.

Examples: B gata H kei, Seitokai Yakuindomo, WORKING!

As a 4-koma to attract attention, they must be able to bring the comedy out of the story in short brief words and pictures, or literally, in 4 squares(DUH!). So they would have to think of all sorts of ideas to make it funny. However, it seemed difficult to animate it while maintaining its comedy and story, as an anime episode lasts 20+ minutes, and just 4 squares would take a min or two only. Best reference is Seitokai Yakuindomo. Every few 4-square comedies and you see a big stamp to mark the end of a series of jokes. So thus, the new addition of 4-komas has brought variety, and the sexual jokes and all as compared to the old and common harem ideas.

As for RAINBOW, though i have heard and read the first few volumes of the manga, i am not too sure about the anime and how successful it is, so I am unable to comment further on that. But the increase of seinen manga may indeed be one way out, but that would depend on how the companies would invest their money.

[b0mb3r]

Ben's comment reminds me another problem with "originality". Supply and Demand. While many of us overseas prefer something different, the Japanese market aim to please the NEETs, moetards, figure collectors and such.

To fight against fansub or such maybe it's wise to do a "web-anime", similar to webcomics. Webcomics can either lead to self-publishing, creating their own company or find other company for helping out. With a website just featuring one work of anime creation you create good traffic for the site. The motivation is similar to those guys who are making Katawa Shoujo, the reward for creating such a thing is creating itself. If you think about it isn't the #1 reason why animators tolerate terrible working condition with poor income, 11 hours a day, eating local KFC, sleeping under the desk, etc is because they love to create? Or you could say the poor working condition itself a motivation, a challenge how much animation they can dish out each week. If working from home there's bound to be distractions.

Me and friend joke how much low income Japanese animators have, so we think about starting our own company in the states and steal all those talented people with a healthier, better income, working environment (not to the point where they become spoiled and leeches coming out lazy works)

[Teh_ping]

Regarding this issue, without the dark atmosphere, I would like to bring your attention to one anime which I believe made quite a big change recently, thus the anime these days. The famous "Lucky Star". Before this, the number of animes that are based upon 4-komas are way lower. And yet, with its success, the demand for such stories and ideas are proven, thus the increase in the number of 4-komas being animated.

Well, before this, there was 'Azumanga Daioh', and you missed out 'K-On!' on popularity (well, depends on who you ask), but you're right on this point.

Anyway, my take is that after watching only a few shonen series (I still don't consider myself an otaku though), yes, it does get dry after some time as well. There are a few subversions each year, some of them have become smash hits (looking at you, Haruhi), but rather, I feel it's more of the anime industry not wanting to try something new. They want something proven, that was popular with the fans (okay, this after reading a Bakuman's explanation of Shonen Jump, which I'm not sure how accurate is it), and very rarely do we see animes nowadays that rely on original storylines (or fillers, but that's another case). Unless someone comes up with something original (plot, setting, so on, but most of the time, it's the plot) that has been proven to work (or at least something that people feel that has the potential to work), no one would want to copy it. It's the same in other industries as well (fashion, video games, you name it), you would want to learn from your competitors in order to improve yourself. But until someone found that breakthrough, most companies would want to play it safe. And we all know that most people will go to what they call the 'in' thing.

As for the adaptations of seinen manga, it is gaining popularity now, Highschool of the Dead, Minami-ke, xxxHolic (One of my favourite mangas, Liar Game was adapted as a live-action, but that's another case)...Though due to censorship issues, they would have to tone down on some violence and sexual ideas, so the idea was already there.

As for 4komas, what makes them so effective is that they deliver the punchline quickly and effectively, hard and fast, like what ShadowZero said. Normally, animes are like stories, a single plot driving it forward and making progress, it's like going down the expressway. But adapting a 4koma would be difficult to maintain for a 20 minute show because basically, you have to expand and link these separate 4komas together in order to create a somewhat satisfactory plot in order for it to work. It's like trying not to have any adverts in a TV show, you want to make something flow when it's interrupted (or worse, scattered all over the place).

Sorry if I'm not making sense in some areas, I'm just tired after attending my country's National Day Parade (And working on Index, as usual.)

[ainsoph9]

Another thing that tends to be a problem with the current anime market is its reliance on certain gimmicks for humor content. Probably the one that has the most drive to it is sexual jokes. Most of the jokes seem to be recycled from "Love Hina" and Takahashi Rumiko manga and rely heavily on the manzai style of humor. Although I like manzai because it is close to American slapstick, sometimes a different approach to humor would be refreshing. Perhaps the problem with the humor and approach to anime is not so much the anime after all. It is possible that the source material such as manga and light novels are the just as much of a problem. Yet, it really is up to the animation studios to choose what will be animated. Frankly, at this point, I would not mind seeing some studios going back to redo some old series, especially ones that were never finished or had the ending screwed up like FMA and Kanon. Regardless of approach, if anime does not change soon, I think that even the new generation of anime lovers will come to hate and reject it.

[ShadowZeroHeart]

Anyway, my take is that after watching only a few shonen series (I still don't consider myself an otaku though), yes, it does get dry after some time as well. There are a few subversions each year, some of them have become smash hits (looking at you, Haruhi), but rather, I feel it's more of the anime industry not wanting to try something new. They want something proven, that was popular with the fans (okay, this after reading a Bakuman's explanation of Shonen Jump, which I'm not sure how accurate is it), and very rarely do we see animes nowadays that rely on original storylines (or fillers, but that's another case). Unless someone comes up with something original (plot, setting, so on, but most of the time, it's the plot) that has been proven to work (or at least something that people feel that has the potential to work), no one would want to copy it. It's the same in other industries as well (fashion, video games, you name it), you would want to learn from your competitors in order to improve yourself. But until someone found that breakthrough, most companies would want to play it safe. And we all know that most people will go to what they call the 'in' thing.

Well, I don't really agree to the part about anime industry not wanting to try something new... But more of, they fail miserably when they do? The most recent example is probably Black Rock Shooter. A genuine original anime that came from a MV by miku? Just that... its not the breakthrough you seek?

Besides, even if proven to work, things would start focusing all on that area, and it becomes generic very soon as well. People are always greedy for more, so... unless they can find infinite areas that are not covered to satisfy you hungry beasts, you will STILL complain about this issue LOLz

Edit: Btw, I mentioned that Lucky Star changed the industry to quite an extent, not that there are no other animes that came from 4-komas. But more importantly, that Lucky Star brought enough attention that they start going into this area. Same for Haruhi and the increase of Light Novel anime adaptations?

[b0mb3r]

Takahashi Rumiko manga and rely heavily on the manzai style of humor.

Funny that you mention manzai. I feel like my whole life is a huge manzai at times. The different is that in the anime world everyone is insane and nuts while the main lead is normal. In my life mostly everyone is normal and I'm the nutty guy so I usually get the reaction the male lead gives me from everyone.

Back on topic I believe the only studio (okay a collaboration) making a difference is Anime no Chikara. With the exception of So Ra No Wo To, they tried to not rely on any material and give original works. Is very different from other stereotype shows when they released Senkō no Night Raid. It was difficult to watch at time since it takes place in Shanghai and use real historical reference. There was many time it challenges my knowledge and I had to wiki it too. Unfortunately it was as enjoyable as I imagine. Maybe I wasn't ready for its taste.

[joshuafaramir]

Although I agree that produces/companies need profits, flooding the aniverse with cliches and stereotypes are a bit too much. One cannot eat the same food for a month straight without feeling sick. (unless he/she is desperate.)

The anime industry does make breakthroughs sometimes, however, compared to previous years, more and more generic storylines are being used over and over and over again. Similarity in itself is not a bad thing but similarity without innovation or uniqueness at the same time leads to stagnation or worse.

A good example would be Amagami SS. Albeit the usual storyline (school, no, high school boy gets girls), they changed how multiple ending Visual Novel Game adaptations should be done. Instead of just going through a straight line, they separated (or crammed) different arcs. Sometimes, I wish that's how they did it with Fate/Stay Night. I know for a fact that it would have been awesome. Why? Because the UBW Movie was a big failure. To little time and too much story to tell.

I disagree with absolute control though. I have always believed that diversity means innovation and absolutes means stagnation.

I love School Days because it have some element of realism to it. Exaggerations aside (beheading) if you cheat, you're screwed. It goes against what harem plot always seem to show---that harem = good ending. It simply does not work that way.

I am aware of my personal preferences and bias therefore, I will say this, I am tired of watching kids/teens protagonists run the show especially on war genre. I mean, what is wrong with adults in that world? Teens are in their most unstable age be it psychologically and physiologically and yet they choose to let them make the big decisions. (ZnT anyone?) but I digress.

I know, I know... Majority of the anime watchers are "teens" and therefore, can empathize more (or fantasize) with the protagonists. Thus, the influx of school-life genre. Maybe I'm just really picky with what I watch. 4-coma adaptations are good but as ShadowZeroHeart have said, it is hard to fit a minute manga on a 20+ minute anime.

For me, Spice and Wolf was one of the best. Anime-wise or Light Novel-wise.

[ben1234]

Btw, I mentioned that Lucky Star changed the industry to quite an extent, not that there are no other animes that came from 4-komas. But more importantly, that Lucky Star brought enough attention that they start going into this area. Same for Haruhi and the increase of Light Novel anime adaptations?

Azumanga and Ichigo Marshmallow were made years before Lucky Star. It wasn't that Lucky Star changed things, but more like when the majority of the (good enough to animate) 4-koma are monthly serializations, you're going to have a 3 year gap between Azumanga and Lucky Star before you have enough material to work with.

If we're going by light novels, JC Staff had a bit less than a year's head start on KyoAni's Haruhi with Shana. And if we go a bit back, Gonzo and KyoAni did do the FMP adaptions, and there was the Kino no Tabi and Scrapped Princess series. But ya, Gonzo gets the credit with this one, they really went all out with light novels before JC Staff did their thing, even if half Gonzo's adaptions sucked.

About the usual naked bath/beach scenes/panty shots we see and hate, anime and manga artists/writers/directors are usually required to fulfil a certain page or minute quota so those scenes are cheap fillers to use (writers usually don't need to think how a guy walking into a naked bath scene would turn out)

[b0mb3r]

Although I agree that produces/companies need profits, flooding the aniverse with cliches and stereotypes are a bit too much. One cannot eat the same food for a month straight without feeling sick. (unless he/she is desperate.)

The anime industry does make breakthroughs sometimes, however, compared to previous years, more and more generic storylines are being used over and over and over again. Similarity in itself is not a bad thing but similarity without innovation or uniqueness at the same time leads to stagnation or worse.

A good example would be Amagami SS. Albeit the usual storyline (school, no, high school boy gets girls), they changed how multiple ending Visual Novel Game adaptations should be done. Instead of just going through a straight line, they separated (or crammed) different arcs. Sometimes, I wish that's how they did it with Fate/Stay Night. I know for a fact that it would have been awesome. Why? Because the UBW Movie was a big failure. To little time and too much story to tell.

I disagree with absolute control though. I have always believed that diversity means innovation and absolutes means stagnation.

I love School Days because it have some element of realism to it. Exaggerations aside (beheading) if you cheat, you're screwed. It goes against what harem plot always seem to show---that harem = good ending. It simply does not work that way.

I am aware of my personal preferences and bias therefore, I will say this, I am tired of watching kids/teens protagonists run the show especially on war genre. I mean, what is wrong with adults in that world? Teens are in their most unstable age be it psychologically and physiologically and yet they choose to let them make the big decisions. (ZnT anyone?) but I digress.

I know, I know... Majority of the anime watchers are "teens" and therefore, can empathize more (or fantasize) with the protagonists. Thus, the influx of school-life genre. Maybe I'm just really picky with what I watch. 4-coma adaptations are good but as ShadowZeroHeart have said, it is hard to fit a minute manga on a 20+ minute anime.

For me, Spice and Wolf was one of the best. Anime-wise or Light Novel-wise.

Yeah war stories involving adults takes the back seat. the closest we had in mainstream is Code Geass where the main character is a kid but the adults are just important as he is. Anime movies have that advantage of not following the mainstream conventions. For example Sword of the Stranger or Paprika. You get high quality anime and unique stories. Sometimes compilation works too like Aoi Bungaku. A unique one I watched last year was Kuuchuu Buranko aka Trapeze that involves alot of experimentation like bright colors and usage of photograph of people. Some a good adaptation comes around like cross game and fullmetal alchemist. So yeah if the industry understand how successful the examples I mention above maybe they can be a little less close-minded.