Poll - Changes in Spice And Wolf Guidelines

[Darknemo2000]

If you are asking for me to put it in one sentence) then here it goes:

All images should be uploaded to their a specific (volume-based) image gallery page, regardless of their type and the translation progress. Preferred formatting is JPG.

This is the line that I would like to see added to guidelines. i have already listed my points for it and how it can benefit the project.

Still this is NOT a major problem. Guidelines regarding text are much more important. This change is just purposed just because, as I believe, it is more beneficial than the old one image where image separation based on their type (color images are uploaded into specific image gallery yet gray-scale ones are kept apart) and their uploading is depending on translation progress .

[Smidge204]

Sorry, Oni DOES have an opinion. His opinion is to follow the process. Wait a month like everyone else.

I also wanted it stated for the record that with the exception of kicking TGM in the nuts for deleting my post after I explicitly told him not to f*** with it I have completely taken the high road on this. Somehow everyone sees Darknemo as the victim but he's the only person that's been throwing feces around. Somehow I get painted as the villain for standing up to his B.S.

Maybe he should make this his new avatar:



You people are seriously unbelievable sometimes.
=Smidge=

[Darknemo2000]

Thats because your "standing up" was rather insulting in its own matter, like saying that my edits are pretty much useless without images or that I am pretty much braindead. You do realize that jumpy jumped on my with a flame I flamed him back and thats all. I didn't even said anything about you or how useless your edits seem and so on. You just went up and launched a personal attack on me, though you should have launched an attack against the theme.

I wasn't insulting you, yes I was biased and still am but again I am initiating this all poll so needless to say that I will be more centered on the points for rather than against. You should have just done the same without launching a personal attack against me.

This is not a thread on what my edits/translations are and what they are not. This is a thread about changes in Spice and Wolf guidelines. And you still are not over it and see me as a dark villain while you are a poor damsel in distress, but you have to understand that there is difference between criticizing ones stand-point and launching personal insults.

Maybe thats why people team up against you? At least I wasn't personally insulting you. Yes I was painting your position in darker colors but i wasn't saying - Smidge is braindead, his contributions are not worth anything at all and his mods status is only out of pity, didn't I? Thats the differences and thats why more people are against things you say and do in this thread.

I don't know what this image should mean (well I guess another spiteful bite), but you do not have an avatar yourself so why not unsing it?

And TGM is never as biased as me or you. He is not going oh lets do bad for Smidge as i hate him, not really he was just trying to stop this thread going out off hand and thats what the discussion not directly related to this threads main theme (and personal attacks, flames) edited them.

I did a mistake deleting your first post, should have just edited the way TGM did but again, I was too angry to think clearly.

One way or another lets just shut up and go back to the main theme.

[onizuka-gto]

I just wish to remind you all one more time, please keep the personal discussion for private messages.

This project specific guideline is open for ONE MONTH, it is fine if you wish to consider this petition to be within your favour, but any attempts to enforce any proposed draft before the deadline will be rolledback/deleted/etc etc/

please do not cut the blue tape, this will only harm process for yourself and other in the future.

Any more personal related discussion regarding the commenter themselves and not the subject details at hand, will be deleted.

You will be issued with a report to your profile (for first offence) if your comment has been deleted in this thread, however repeated offence will be issued with a warning, preluding to a possible ban.

You will have the right to appeal with for a report to be edited or removed (case by case review with consultation with other staff and selected comrade witnesses),

but warnings are permanent


so please keep this civil.

thank you.

[fiendmaw]

Since there isn't an 'I agree with both' option in the poll,I vote the 3rd.I like them both ways,sure non-color images in a gallery is nice,non-color images in the actual text are nice too.So it's just a question of preference.I'm not going to comment on the things that happened here because it's beyond me,hope you sort it out soon.
What you can do to please both parties,is to introduce a non-color gallery,to a total of two galleries,but that's too much of a hassle(and probably not a valid option either).

[Smidge204]

What you can do to please both parties,is to introduce a non-color gallery,to a total of two galleries,but that's too much of a hassle(and probably not a valid option either).

I would be satisfied with such a compromise...
=Smidge=

[Darknemo2000]

I don't see the need of separate folder for the non-color ones. Just add all illustrations together without making too much of folders. Splitting it in two part would add unnecessarily confusion and would not be, what I think original idea is, more convenient at all.

[TheGiftedMonkey]

Is it possible to make an Illustrations page for all the color/non-color illustrations, but have a divider or two separate sections on that page to sort them?

[onizuka-gto]

If you are asking for me to put it in one sentence) then here it goes:

All images should be uploaded to their a specific (volume-based) image gallery page, regardless of their type and the translation progress. Preferred formatting is JPG.

having taken some time to consider your proposal, if i understand correctly, you wish that all the images to be added to the illustration page for each respective volumes, before the appropriate chapters are available to read?

What then becomes of previous volumes which are still following the general direction of just having the illustraion page for coloured articles, with the in line black & white images inserted in the respective chapters?

At the moment i don't really feel the urge to look up the black & white images in the previous volumes, since i've seen them while i was reading the script.

On the other hand, i'm quite concerned with being spoiled if you were to put inline pictures together with the coloured articles (Which more or less are meant to be seen at the beginning of the volume and are deliberately non-spoiler)
which has yet to be published.

The other issue is the naming convention of the page, if you are to put the inline & colour pictures together, it can no longer be justified as simply as "color illustration".


I think you need to think about this problem of spoilers, as inline images are very context related, so the concern is very valid for those who like surprises.

[Darknemo2000]

Again, it never seemed to be with ZnT or Toradora, in fact I have received few message why i or someone else haven't uploaded volume 14 images yet.

The system works fine with the afore mentioned why should it it start being bad with Spice and Wolf out of sudden?

Being Spoiled never seemed to be that great concern with either of the novels in fact, people would not look of the volume that is not released yet illustrations at all or if look - be even more eager to see what the heck happens.

In Spice and Wolf color chapters are spoilers by themselves as compared to other novels the color novel pages are direct part of the story just like non-color ones.

Yes, the level of spoiling is different with added non-color illustrations, yet the same problem is already with story related color ones, just on a smaller extent. To really not to spoil reader one should leave only op and ed pages.

Again I look at spoiling as an artificial problem, if illustrations are too far ahead you can chose not to look at them, even looking at color pages you are already spoiling yourself, so for me adding non-color ones there would not make THAT big of difference really.

This all of course is based on experience we are having with Toradora and ZnT. Neither received complains (well about Toradora I am not 100 percent sure as I am not that deeply related to the project, but as far as I know there wasn't) and the only complaints that I received concerning illustrations where why I or other people like Vaelis do not put the latest volume illustrations on.

Basically the spoiling problem is already there, just on a smaller extent, yes they were meant to be seen but it doesn't change the fact that they are spoilers already so if you are so concerned about this problem you should take out both color and non-color ones to really avoid the spoiling otherwise . Yet this problem seems to be a pseudoproblem really. It never affected neither of the two projects that are working the same way and just made readers to be more eager with the release.

As for naming - just name it Illustration or Novel Illustrations

and the already released ones will have to change according to new changes eventually. i don't mind doing that if others find it to be too bothersome.

[Smidge204]

Again, it never seemed to be with ZnT or Toradora, in fact I have received few message why i or someone else haven't uploaded volume 14 images yet. The system works fine with the afore mentioned why should it it start being bad with Spice and Wolf out of sudden?

1) Show us the messages you claim to have received.

2) There is no "system" with ZnT/Toradora, it's anarchy. There was no enforcement of the guidelines and nobody bothered to ask before doing whatever they wanted. It continued so long because nobody noticed.

S&W is being "singled out" because I DID notice, and soon enough to try and correct it. Doing it "wrong" just because two other projects do it "wrong" and nobody bothered to stop it is not a valid reason.

Being Spoiled never seemed to be that great concern with either of the novels in fact, people would not look of the volume that is not released yet illustrations at all or if look - be even more eager to see what the heck happens. In Spice and Wolf color chapters are spoilers by themselves as compared to other novels the color novel pages are direct part of the story just like non-color ones.

You speak for yourself but it seems you also claim to speak for everyone. Your singular opinion is worth just that. Since you speak in the past-tense you surely must have at least some evidence of this prior to this discussion? You can't use opinions now, after the discussion has taken place, to justify a position that relies on the past.

The fact remains that if this were true, both ZnT and Toradora would have attracted more attention. There is no evidence to suggest such a thing is happening or, if it is, the effect is totally negligible. If anything this whole fiasco has drummed up more interest.

Again I look at spoiling as an artificial problem, if illustrations are too far ahead you can chose not to look at them, even looking at color pages you are already spoiling yourself, so for me adding non-color ones there would not make THAT big of difference really.

It's kind of hard to not see images that are on the same page as ones you DO want to look at. There is no segregation and no warning. That is why fiendmaw suggestion is particularly appealing - it creates that separation.

This all of course is based on experience we are having with Toradora and ZnT. Neither received complains (well about Toradora I am not 100 percent sure as I am not that deeply related to the project, but as far as I know there wasn't) and the only complaints that I received concerning illustrations where why I or other people like Vaelis do not put the latest volume illustrations on.

Again, where are these messages?

Basically the spoiling problem is already there, just on a smaller extent, yes they were meant to be seen but it doesn't change the fact that they are spoilers already so if you are so concerned about this problem you should take out both color and non-color ones to really avoid the spoiling otherwise.

The color illustrations are put there by the publisher. How can something be considered a spoiler if it's put there by the creator? That's like saying a commercial is a spoiler... sorry, but the definition is not malleable to your own ends. If the content creator does it that way it is cannon, and cannon by definition can not be a spoiler.

Things like this, however, are most definitely spoiler-worthy:

http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/image ... 02-303.jpg



Now, to everyone else:

If you agree with fiendmaw's compromise proposal:

What you can do to please both parties,is to introduce a non-color gallery,to a total of two galleries,but that's too much of a hassle.

Then VOTE NO on this poll. We can amend the proposed change and re-vote to include the compromise.
=Smidge=

[Darknemo2000]

Well if doing it wrong wasn't bad so how it is wrong in the end? Or are you claiming that ZnT and Toradora are not successful projects? Look how much page views they have and how recently page views per day increased in those two projects.

As for the messages, sadly i do not have them as I have already deleted them time ago as there is little psace to store all the massages (las I get many asks for Raws). i think I might have few on my animesuki account though.

Right now Tradora and ZnT are the best B-T project in terms of having attention and popularity (Haruhi is still the absolute best) I don't see how you can question that unless you are blind or don't bother too look the views numbers. Spice and Wolf will have a lots of job to do to be able to catch up with the two, not talking about other projects (Maybe except Clannad).

How much part in this has the way images are stored is a question however, it is a fact that it both of these projects are going on successful without people complaining about the spoilers or something of a similar manner.

If anarchy is doing so well then maybe it isn't bad after all, considering that this anarchy has the same system on them both. The point of B-T is to distribute translations of novels and encourage it if this anarchy actually works for faster translation then how can it be wrong. Maybe initial guidelines are not so successful or good as one would like to claim?

Splitting the two galleries is still better than nothing of course but for me it still looks like unnecessary complication.

Again I might change my opinion if I would understand how it should work but for now, I see it only as two separate links color illustrations and non-color illustrations and I am against it as it seems like too much linking thus too complicated.

I would not mind a separation line like TGM offered yet i have trouble imagining how it would actually work.

[Smidge204]

As for the messages, sadly i do not have them as I have already deleted them time ago as there is little psace to store all the massages (las I get many asks for Raws). i think I might have few on my animesuki account though.

Well proof or it didn't happen. Hearsay has no place here.

Right now Tradora and ZnT are the best B-T project in terms of having attention and popularity (Haruhi is still the absolute best) I don't see how you can question that unless you are blind or don't bother too look the views numbers.

You can't use views to accurately judge the popularity of a project. You need to normalize for time (an older, less popular project will have more views than a newer, more popular one) and actual activity. ZnT is almost two years old, which works out to roughly 430 views/day on average. S&W is three MONTHS old which actually works out to be more - about 480 views/day.

Raw page hits are meaningless without context, and aren't even that important with context either.

If anarchy is doing so well then maybe it isn't bad after all, considering that this anarchy has the same system on them both. The point of B-T is to distribute translations of novels and encourage it if this anarchy actually works for faster translation then how can it be wrong. Maybe initial guidelines are not so successful or good as one would like to claim?

Again, your definition of "successful" and "popular" are almost baseless. You cite faster translation but in terms of your own contributions they are machine translated. Machine translations are actually counter-productive IMHO, since they are notoriously bad and someone has to translate the text manually to verify it - but nobody is going to bother because there is already a (most likely wrong) translation... nobody is going to do the work twice. It LOOKS good but ultimately it's just a facade.

Edit: Ah, I knew it was here somewhere...
=Smidge=

[Darknemo2000]

I'll use Vaelis stats of Daily views limited to the last 3-4 months.

01. Suzumiya Haruhi - 1575
02. Toradora! - 875
03. Zero no Tsukaima - 750
04. Clannad - 522
05. Fate/Zero - 352
06. Kara no Kyoukai - 275
07. Spice & Wolf - 267
08. Suzumiya Haruki no Seitenkan - 230
09. Umineko no Naku Koro ni - 224
10. Maria-sama ga Miteru - 195

As you can see ZnT and Toradora are still at the top and Toradora is actually newer project but has more daily views and overall views compared to SaW and this despite it and ZnT being wrong.

About MT

Spoiler! :

This well thread is not about MT it is about online MT and any self-respecting person would never use online translators as they are horrible.

Besides no one would ever use a single MT translator, even ATLAS alone cannot be good enough to provide translation. Using MT I even translated some parts of Archmade volume 2 chapter where he (human translator) could not understand or where he mistranslated (there were two places) so all in all MT is reliable enough to provide translation, but again - not a single MT but a few MT with great deal of dictionaries at a hand and knowledge of japanese grammar. You havent even read a single chapter that I translated and yet you talk as if you know. All your knowledge is based on online translators or a single MT, which is not what my translations are based on. Talk big only when you know what you are talking about, but for now since all your comments are based on your general knowledge of online translators you have no right to dismiss something that you are simply not aware of.

And it is not a fast job either. It usually takes me three weeks to do one chapter. I did that latest part 4 of chapter 3 in volume 5 faster only because i was having a toothache whole week so was working day and night (literally).

But again were are here not to discuss MT or my contributions in general.

Views do not tell series popularity only but it can give a general idea which series people are more interested in. And Toradora and ZnT look like few of our strongest project while Spice and Wolf though follows guidelines well and has more translators than lets say ZnT and is older than Toradora.

Again my main claim is that the anarchic projects are doing much more successful than most of B-T projects that follow the guidelines, thus the anarchy doesn't seem a bad thing. The way images are presented may be not decisive factor but the fact is that it is not preventing them from being successful.

You may question my note of successful but you wont be able to say anything about success at all nor about popularity with such position of scepsis and in the end you will ahve to admit that all projects are all unsuccessful or super successful depending on ones point of view as there simply will be no criteria to determine that.

Yet there is a fact that some projects attract more attention (thus more views and more activity in discussion by more people and so on) and I am using the most reliable one - numbers daily and weekly views or views in total. And here Toradora and ZnT look stronger than most of other B-T projects.

[Smidge204]

I'm glad we agree that the issue of images being grouped together has absolutely no bearing on the popularity or subjective "success" of a project. I'm also glad to see you've latched on to the "anarchy" rhetoric, because that shows you have yet again changed your stance on the issue. Just keep moving the goal post and you surely can't lose.

Please disclose how those stats were gathered. If those are from daily samples then I am likely responsible for at least 5-10% of those hits on ZnT just from this topic alone.
=Smidge=