Japanese in 18 Months? No way!!!

[larethian]

Now, what about the hiragana expression? I can read it but I do not get the meaning.

like what? are you following tae kim's guide? you need to at least learn the fundamentals of grammar, where hiragana is used in.

[Zell_ff8]

mnemonics are contraproducent.
I mean, you have to memorize something want it or no. You may memorize the meaning directly, or mnemonics. But mnemonics are always more tricker and complex, so it's much more confusing that just getting used to the kanji.

I mean, it's just much easier and shorter to assimilate 雲="cloud" than 雲="billowing rain-clouds look like two noses". Shorter in words, meanings more direct. Also, being iconic you have already mnemonics in radicals. For kanji and for words. If you know 人and木 you can deduce the meaning of 休 (the mnemonics "man resting on a tree" can be deduced without having to memorice it). If you know 重 and 力 you can deduce 動. And adding 人 you can deduce 働. And if knowing 感, you can deduce the meaning of 感動. It doesn't apply to everything, but works in more cases than using one mnemonic for each kanji/compound.

When you get used to it, you take them as naturals. Its the same with our alphabet. You don't remember S thinking "S is shaped like a serpent crawling", or "A is a house roof" or "O is the moon". The same way you'll learn kana (those you have to memorize, it's ridiculous to use mnemonics for meaningless sounds). And also radicals, and with those you can deduce or have a guess of the meaning of an unknown kanji or compound.
It's the same reason any math teacher would tell you not to memorize methods or formulas, but to understand them. If you do, you can deduce or write the formula yourself without memorizing (I never memorized Snell' law, but I know that the sines of the angle of the ray goes with the index of the medium where it travels, so I construct the formula "sin a.na=sin b.nb" in the moment in my head, and from there I reach the standard formula "sin a/sin b=nb/na")

Mnemonics are fun and attractive to newcomers, to grow interest in ideographs. But I don't know anyone who seriously study japanese that has found mnemonics useful . Most of them who used it said that ended being confusing when the number of items increase.

[Poke2201]

mnemonics are contraproducent.
I mean, you have to memorize something want it or no. You may memorize the meaning directly, or mnemonics. But mnemonics are always more tricker and complex, so it's much more confusing that just getting used to the kanji.

I mean, it's just much easier and shorter to assimilate 雲="cloud" than 雲="billowing rain-clouds look like two noses". Shorter in words, meanings more direct. Also, being iconic you have already mnemonics in radicals. For kanji and for words. If you know 人and木 you can deduce the meaning of 休 (the mnemonics "man resting on a tree" can be deduced without having to memorice it). If you know 重 and 力 you can deduce 動. And adding 人 you can deduce 働. And if knowing 感, you can deduce the meaning of 感動. It doesn't apply to everything, but works in more cases than using one mnemonic for each kanji/compound.

When you get used to it, you take them as naturals. Its the same with our alphabet. You don't remember S thinking "S is shaped like a serpent crawling", or "A is a house roof" or "O is the moon". The same way you'll learn kana (those you have to memorize, it's ridiculous to use mnemonics for meaningless sounds). And also radicals, and with those you can deduce or have a guess of the meaning of an unknown kanji or compound.
It's the same reason any math teacher would tell you not to memorize methods or formulas, but to understand them. If you do, you can deduce or write the formula yourself without memorizing (I never memorized Snell' law, but I know that the sinus of the angle goes with the index of the medium, so I construct the formula "sin a.na=sin b.nb" in the moment in my head, and from there I reach the standard formula "sin a/sin b=nb/na")

Mnemonics are fun and attractive to newcomers, to grow interest in ideographs. But I don't know anyone who seriously study japanese that has found useful mnemonics. Most of them who used it said that ended being confusing when the number of items increase.

Actually... What a mnemonic for a kanji is...

DRUMS are beaten and many MOUTHS are open in song as the people REJOICE on a festive occasion. --> 喜

They are exactly what you are describing really.

[Zell_ff8]

Actually... What a mnemonic for a kanji is...

DRUMS are beaten and many MOUTHS are open in song as the people REJOICE on a festive occasion. --> 喜

They are exactly what you are describing really.

The difference is the method, like when I used a math formula as an example. Using mnemonics requires you to memorize longer sentences (some are really weird) for an identity, when it is easier to separe the components and deduce it in the moment. With mnemonics you need more memory, when regular study requires more comprehension.

In a computer lexicon (I'm a programmer), its like the difference of a search algorithm in a dictionary (mnemonics) VS a calculation in real time (deduction).

Mnemonics in a general aspect (and if there're lots of items) is a waste of resources. Its much easier to just memorize あ as a figure than "an antenna is on top of the roof" (link). Its like I said, no one thinks of a "S is like a serpent" to remember how to draw it or spell it.

In my library I found some books (addressed to beginners) of mnemonics for kanji (like that link for kanas but for kanji), which a different drawing for each kanji and its a mess. If you have space in your mind to remember a so unrelated image of a "cheeleader jumping" to remember "ち", just memorizing it would take less space.
I haven't found a book of mnemonics for advanced learners, all are for starters or newcomers. Almost all books for learning and acquiring kanji are in a form of dictionary with different kind of practices or using special groupings (sound, radicals, context of compounds)

[SkyFlames07]

I guess you guys misunderstood me XD I am ok with Kanji, I am asking about Hiragana..

What I ment is the hirgana expressions, I can read the characters already, but I do not get the meanings. So which I am wondering is if there is a guide or recopilation of the expressions that are only used with Hiragana.

[Zell_ff8]

Kana has no meaning. They represent only sounds. So the meaning of the words written in kanas is the meaning of the word which sounds like that.
But that my friend, is quite a problem in a language with so !"#%& many 67#/#%& homophones. Good luck with that.
Most early students are afraid of kanji and want only kanas, but kanji are really the savior. My worst nightmare is a japanese test with only hiragana. Sentences at full kana are much harder than regular japanese, believe me.
For example, 「こうき」. There is no way you can know what that means. Not if I don't give you a context. And even so, there are hundreds of homophones with multiple words valid in the same context. (「こうき」 can mean 口気, 工期, 公器, 広軌, 好奇, 好期, 好機, 光輝, 香気, 後記, 後期, 校紀, 校規, 校旗, 高貴, 綱紀, 興起, and a dozen more, all pronounced the same way)

There is not a defined guide. Anything can be written in kanas. And almost everything in kanji too. If you want to be picky, you can use 之 instead of possesive の and most particles has kanji or can be omitted. So you can write 100% kanji or 100% kana. There is an implicit rule of keeping a ratio for aesthetic purpose (and for the health of our eyes).
Today I was reading Boku wa Tomodati ga Sukunai and there is a character that speaks old and in purpose (also, by aesthetic purposes and to express in written form that he's hard to understand when talking) speaks all in hiragana. It's readable, but without kanji fast reading is difficult because you can't see easily the structure or where a word starts or ends:

Spoiler! :

「夜空のあねごはいわれました。しんのおとこたるもの、たとえどのようなかっこうをしていようとも、隠しとおせぬおとこらしさというものがにじみでるものだと。このように女中さんのかっこうをしていようとも魂からおとこらしさをはっきできるようになったとき、そのときこそわたくしがしんのおとこになったあかしとなるそうです。つらいしれんですががばります」

(this is not a rule, but a trend) In modern japanese all particles and okurigana are written in hiragana (i.e. ほど、くらい、まで instead of 程、位、迄. okurigana -verb endings- can be replaced with kanji like in chinese but it's a really weird and old japanese). All words and compounds are written in kanji. General verbs are written in kanji, and frecuent or deducible by context in hiragana. Complementary verbs are also in hiragana (e.g. 思っている instead of 思って居る).

If you read different authors each one has its preferences. Older texts has usually more kanji. Or for aesthetic purposes, there can be times when the writting is changed to more or less kanji (for example that sentence I quoted earlier, or childrens "talking" all in hiragana, or robots/machines, usually written all in katakana)

In short: guide? there isn't. you rely on context 99% of the time, and what counts here is how vast is your vocabulary to recognize words and its usages even if they are not written in kanji.
for example, here is a picky one:　けつのあながちいさい. If you're not used and do not know that expression, you could end up thinking "his anus is too small". But that expression means "narrow-minded".
(yeah, it's intended to cause confusion. actually I took that example from a manga where a fujosi get the first meaning pic)

[larethian]

to add on, actually, nearly all grammatical constructs are written in hiragana. particles (which are extremely important), conjunctions, conjugate portions of verbs, etc. grammar means "language rules" right? how can you understand a language without learning its rules? so what you need to learn are the "rules" binding the words. I have a classic example on the importance of particles somewhere at home (will go back and look for it later). you can actually take a look at this:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar

[Poke2201]

I accept your opinion, but I disagree with mnemonics being a waste of resources. They are very useful for the beginning of memorizing things. Sooner or later it becomes second nature, then you don't need the mnemonics now right?

[SkyFlames07]

Now the papers reverted.
At first I was scared of Kanji and not of the Kana, but now that the first is just memorization (I guess I have a good memory), the second is the part that I wanted to avoid that is the pronunciations of the japanese words. I actually tryed at first to remember boths, kanji mean and word pronunciation. (Ex: 火　"fire" - "ka") that is the method with which one I wrotte over 200 thousand of kanjis down on my notebook, but now if they give you just "ka" you can get dozens of results... Seems like a dead end to me.
Thanks lare for the guide, I will take a look after ending with the Kanji V1.

[Poke2201]

Don't worry too much about how many uses for ka there are. Focus mainly on comprehension. If you can read and listen, you will learn how to talk and write easily.

[Zell_ff8]

@Poke2201: Well, I don't know how they work to learn memorizing. I already knew how to study and memorize, so I directly started that way.

@larethian: Grammar are rules for structure, but not how to write it. That is implicit, depending on context, region, age, or just preferences. For example 「はこれ何？」 is gramatically wrong. But 「之位何でも無い」 its perfectly valid and correct, 「これくらいは何でもない」 its not "more correct", just more common. For example particles are usually written in hiragana. But you can write them in kanji if you want, it's just not common nowadays (most learners won't recognize 迄 has a particle). Also by context, like possesive の, most of times in hiragana, but in some formal ceremonies its more common to use kanji (like tombstones with ○○之墓). Or aesthetics, we have the world of ateji for that very reason. You surely know ありがとう or おめでとう, but 有難う and 御目出糖 are also valid, common and correct. Even onomatopoeias, ああ！ can be written 嗚呼！ for aesthetic purposes.
There is no mandatory rule on how to write (use of katakana/hiragana/kanji), you're totally free to choose how to write each word. The rest is just "de facto" custom, what is common today and there.

edit: also, don't worry about memorizing everything. the tip that most worked for me was keep a constant contact with the language. i.e. practice. You'll learn words as you encounter them, and the meanings and sounds will stick by themselves as you find them more and more times. Read a lot!
I didn't memorize all words with か. If I have to number them now, I can only recall 化, 蚊, 可 and 火. But if I happen to find 歌詞 when reading I automatically remember that 歌 also is pronounced か. I can't explain the process, I just already acquired it (probably by repetition).

[EusthEnoptEron]

As poke mentioned, mnemonics are chiefly a way to bring those Kanji easily into your head without too much effort. It just works; if you create your own characteristic stories. And after repeating them a few times in real text, you won't care about them anymore anyway since you'll know the kanjis by heart. Hell, thanks to it I learned up to 100 kanjis a day back then, so at least for me it worked like a charm.

[edit]
I want to add, though, that admittedly I don't use mnemonics anymore. But it's a great method to get started.

[larethian]

Zell, please read carefully. Did I mention that "it's a rule to write grammar in hiragana"? And read carefully also Skyflames's original question:

Now, what about the hiragana expression? I can read it but I do not get the meaning.

and he re-itereated it again:

What I ment is the hirgana expressions, I can read the characters already, but I do not get the meanings.

As a matter of fact, please read my entire post again after that. (^ω^)#

[Zell_ff8]

But I already addressed his question. You can't get the meaning from hiragana, you just has to know the word beforehand and take it from context.
And also there isn't a list of words written in hiragana because all words are in kanji originally (except gairaigo -and some have ateji-). There are words I've seen more times in hiragana, like りんご, but it comes from 林檎.

Or define "hiragana expressions". If he meant a recopilation of grammatical expressions (not precisely in hiragana, but as I said you can write them all in hiragana if you want) like ~にもかかわらず, ~というものではない, ~わけではない, ~にもとづいて, ~やいなや, ~ずにはおかない; you can find them on any grammar book. Grammar books for JLPT have them grouped by difficulty. Those are fixed expressions that may be studied case by case.

btw Skyflame hablás español?

I don't remember now the name of some books but a few ones I could recommend for learning kanji are the Shin Nihongo no Kiso Kanji Workbook I & II. With those two I learned my first 500 kanji and acquired a fair ammount of vocabulary. I liked how it had grouping by themes and both writing and reading practice. Also Kodansha Kanji Learners Dictionary is my most precious book ever. I never used a dictionary so much like that one.
And for grammar I really like "A Dictionary of ____ Japanese Grammar" series and Kanzen Master.

[larethian]

now I understand where you are coming from. it seems like we understand his question differently, and my answer is targeting something else. but instead of me trying to explain in a long post, @Skyflames, why don't you just post some example sentences? and tell us which part of the sentences you don't understand.