『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳研究

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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by Doraneko »

larethian wrote:orrh, just what I'd expect from Doranyako-sama, a very detailed and complete answer, thanks :D
My pleasure. :D
so お揃い is part of keigo? it's referring to "assembling"?
It literally means gathering / assembling / going together / matching.

As for whether it is keigo... There is a certain degree of politeness in it but I wouldn't put it up to the level of full-fledged sonkeigo.

The example you quoted, "皆さんお揃いでおいでください", shows precisely the level of politeness exhibited. "お揃いでおいで" is clearly more polite than "揃ってきて". But the use of 皆さん instead of 皆様 shows that the whole line has yet to reach the top rank in the hierarchy of politeness.
<明鏡国語辞典>

お‐そろい【お▼揃い】─ソロヒ〘名〙
①二人以上の人が連れ立っていることを丁寧にいう語。「─でお出かけですか」
②衣服やその柄などが同じであることを丁寧にいう語。「─のジャケット」
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by larethian »

Doraneko wrote:
larethian wrote:orrh, just what I'd expect from Doranyako-sama, a very detailed and complete answer, thanks :D
My pleasure. :D
so お揃い is part of keigo? it's referring to "assembling"?
It literally means gathering / assembling / going together / matching.

As for whether it is keigo... There is a certain degree of politeness in it but I wouldn't put it up to the level of full-fledged sonkeigo.

The example you quoted, "皆さんお揃いでおいでください", shows precisely the level of politeness exhibited. "お揃いでおいで" is clearly more polite than "揃ってきて". But the use of 皆さん instead of 皆様 shows that the whole line has yet to reach the top rank in the hierarchy of politeness.
<明鏡国語辞典>

お‐そろい【お▼揃い】─ソロヒ〘名〙
①二人以上の人が連れ立っていることを丁寧にいう語。「─でお出かけですか」
②衣服やその柄などが同じであることを丁寧にいう語。「─のジャケット」
ahh ok, I understood the usage context of "assembling" in the sense of creating a full (matching) set, but it confused me initially since I can't figure out how it applies to the girls, but after you explained my misunderstanding of "綺麗どころ", I get it now.



I have now a new problem that has been staring at me for the past half hour:
The context is a girl named Liir who's considering about the philosophical meaning of "despair". Because I can't really type in Japanese on this PC due to some restrictions, merely being able to copy and paste from an online dictionary, I opted to use translated sentences for the context, they are simple enough so I shouldn't have made any mistake other than sucky grammar:

the bold parts are Liir's part and the bold 'she' also refers to Liir. she is watching 3 shoujo bullying 1 shoujo.
Spoiler! :
"...... what manner of despair on earth are you people experiencing?"
She asked.
The young girls, on hearing that,
"Huh? What's that pipsqueak babbling about?"
"Hey hey, what's despair?"
"You don't even know that?"
"I'm not really good at studies."
"That's not the point right?"
"Save me. Please. These people are trying to kill......"
"Don't say that in such a distasteful manner. Do you really want us mash up your face?"
"Eeehhhh ~ that will really be bad ~. If you do something to my face, I'm going to tell on you, so don't do it."
"Even if we don't do that, you will still tattle on us."
"I won't! I......"
"Quiet!"
And that young girl beat up the other young girl.
A human beating up a human.
And she looked at them for a while, then murmured.
"Perhaps, Cross was right."
She murmured.
A magic had been cast on this country.
An abnormal power that was tampering with everything.
That was what she felt.
After Cross had disappeared, she had also begun to notice it gradually.
安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気.
Afterschool.
Chime.
Classroom.
Desk.
Blackboard.
Club activities.
Bullying.
And, what else?
Anyway, it was not unthinkable that everything in this country was backed by this special magic.
Maybe the author is trying to be cryptic or something, but I can't make much sense on the untranslated sentence; the blue and the red parts seem kind of mismatch to me.
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by YoakeNoHikari »

Afraid of whether or not this cheap despair would continue on for eternity, to the extent that it was a boring, tranquil atmosphere.

Ah...That is what I think, but it does not make much sense to me either.
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by larethian »

ok, after thinking about it, I kind of understand the contradiction already, so I'll manage somehow. Liir is actually comparing the so-called 'despair' as defined in Japan, compared to the true 'despair' that is happening in other parts of the world. To the girls, getting bullied is despair, but in other places, people are getting killed, violated, etc. etc.

She is trying to describe the things/objects in Japan, that are supposedly protected by a kind of magic from the true despair that plagues other parts of the world. Using 退屈な, 安穏とした空気 creates the contrast to show 'mild' this kind of 'despair' is.

as for the translation, I''ll think about it later when I get home, or until our in-house consultant can help me with this :D.

I've actually posted my entire sucky translation in case the full context is needed:
http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... i:Prologue
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by Ryu »

Just returned from my trip, so my worn out brain might not be operating optimally, but I'm thinking of

"She felt cheated by that lazy, boring despair, which seemed to go on forever, and that thought alone struck fear in her."
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by Doraneko »

安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気.
Solely on the point of grammatical construction, "安売りされている" modifies 絶望, while "永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど" modifies "退屈な, 安穏とした空気".



As for the context...

安売りされている絶望

Without substantial knowledge of the story and by just relying on the information provided Lare, the "cheap" nature of despair in Japan is quite understandable.


永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気

My literal take on this line is "a boring, uneventful atmosphere that makes one fears that it would continue forever."


larethian wrote:She is trying to describe the things/objects in Japan, that are supposedly protected by a kind of magic from the true despair that plagues other parts of the world. Using 退屈な, 安穏とした空気 creates the contrast to show 'mild' this kind of 'despair' is.
Indeed. I agree that it is exactly the point of the line. To the heroine, amidst the so-called despair, was a stale, uneventful atmosphere that seemed to have no end.
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by larethian »

thanks for all the input.

I just need to clarify this last thing on the grammar construct wrt to what Doraneko said. I thought the break-up was like this:

{ [ ( 安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないか ) + と怖くなるほど ] + 退屈な, 安穏とした空気. }

even when "安売りされている" modifies 絶望, I thought this whole clause "安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないか" is a subordinate set of "と怖くなるほど" rather than just "永遠に続くんじゃないか". Am I mistaken?

Thanks again.
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by Doraneko »

larethian wrote: even when "安売りされている" modifies 絶望, I thought this whole clause "安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないか" is a subordinate set of "と怖くなるほど" rather than just "永遠に続くんじゃないか". Am I mistaken?

Thanks again.
If it was such a case, the line would instead be "安売りされている絶望は/が永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気."

Compare this version with the original. Note the grammatical function of に, and to a lesser extent, the position of the commas.

安売りされている絶望に, 永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気.
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by larethian »

seeing your example of what it should have been if it's based on my breakdown seems clearer. though I have a bad tendency to read whatever intangible noun, like 絶望, that comes before に as an adverb for the action that comes after without thinking too much. In my mind, I just tried to share "続くん" with "永遠に" and "絶望に" at the same time, treating both as adverbs in a n00bish way.

日文文法对我来说真得是太伤脑经了。看来要掌握适当的文法运用形式还需要花费我不少心思呢。我回去翻了我的《てにをは辞典》,看了几个文句例子,复习了一下。您在这里指得《に》的用途(after 絶望)是否意味着《pair》或是《and (additive)》来连接上半句(安売りされている絶望)与下半句(永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気)的用途呢?真是不好意思。

Merci beaucoup

P.S: practicing my Chinese because I'm working with some Chinese clients now. btw, did I use 得 wrongly when it should have been 地?
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by YoakeNoHikari »

In your first sentence: 日文文法对我来说真是太伤脑经了。 The 得 should just be 的.

看来要掌握适当的文法运用形式还需要花费我不少心思呢。 Not really a mistake, but the 我 should be unnecessary.

您在这里指《に》的用途(after 絶望)是否意味着《pair》或是《and (additive)》来连接上半句(安売りされている絶望)与下半句(永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気)的用途呢?真是不好意思。 Once again, it should just be 的.

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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by Doraneko »

larethian wrote:seeing your example of what it should have been if it's based on my breakdown seems clearer. though I have a bad tendency to read whatever intangible noun, like 絶望, that comes before に as an adverb for the action that comes after without thinking too much. In my mind, I just tried to share "続くん" with "永遠に" and "絶望に" at the same time, treating both as adverbs in a n00bish way.
It is certainly important to identify the correct grammatical structure first before jumping to context interpretation, or else the final translation will drift away from the original intended meaning. But then everyone makes mistakes, so as long as you keep practising and revising there should be no worries. Even for me, I get trapped by complex sentence from time to time.
日文文法对我来说真得是太伤脑经了。看来要掌握适当的文法运用形式还需要花费我不少心思呢。我回去翻了我的《てにをは辞典》,看了几个文句例子,复习了一下。您在这里指得《に》的用途(after 絶望)是否意味着《pair》或是《and (additive)》来连接上半句(安売りされている絶望)与下半句(永遠に続くんじゃないかと怖くなるほど退屈な, 安穏とした空気)的用途呢?真是不好意思。

Merci beaucoup
Yes. In the text に serves as a 並立助詞. Here is a more detailed discussion in 大辞林.
2 (並立助)
〔補説〕 1 から転じた用法
名詞および準体助詞「の」に付いて、同趣のものの添加、対比・取り合わせなどの意を表し、また、対等に並べあげるのに用いる。

月―むら雲

ロイドめがね―燕尾服(えんびふく)

古いの―新しいのと、いろいろ組み合わせる

米―みそ―醤油―、何から何まで足りないものばかりだ
P.S: practicing my Chinese because I'm working with some Chinese clients now. btw, did I use 得 wrongly when it should have been 地?
"日文文法对我来说真得是太伤脑经了。"
It should be "真的是". Or simply using "真是" will also be fine. Refer to definition 副2 in the quote.

"您在这里指得《に》的用途"
Again it should be 的. Refer to definition 助5 in the quote.

Differences between 得, 的 and 地:

〈助〉
(1) 用在动词后面,表示能够或可以。如:我们可粗心不得;她能去我为什么去不得
(2) 用在动词和补语中间,表示可能。如:我拿得动;那办得到
(3) 用在动词或形容词后面,连接表示程度或结果的补语。如:冷得打哆嗦;笑得肚子痛


〈助〉
(1) 用在定语后,表示词与词或短语之间的修饰关系 [-ic,-ve…]。如:红色的气球;小小的进步
(2) 用在定语后,表示定语和中心词之间的领属关系 [of,'s]。如:中国的水稻;农民生活的提高
(3) 〈代〉 pron. 附着在词或短语之后,构成“的”字结构,代替所指的人或物。如:卖菜的;吃的
(4) 助词。“的”字前后用相同的动词、形容词等,连用这样的结构,表示有这样的,有那样的。如:推的推,拉的拉
(5) 用在谓语动词后面,强调这动作的施事者或时间、地点、方式等。如:谁买的书?;他是昨天进的城;我是在预售处订的票
(6) 用在两个同类的词或词组之后,表示“等等、之类”的意思。如:破铜烂铁的,他捡来一大筐
(7) 用在陈述句的末尾,表示肯定的语气。如:这件事儿我是知道的
(8) 用在两个数量词中间
(9) [口]∶表示相乘。如:这间房子是五米的三米,合十五平方米
(10) 〈方〉∶表示相加。如:两个的三个,一共五个
(11) 同“得”,后面带补语
那知进了园门,园子里已结坐的满满的了。——《老残游记》
(12) 同“地”( de)。用在状语后,表示状语和中心词之间的修饰关系

〈副〉
(1) 确实;实在 [really;indeed]
不因霜叶辞林去,的当山翁未觉秋。——秦观《淮海集》
(2) 又如:的对;的据(真凭实据);的觉(果然;的确);的是(的确是)
(3) 必定;一定 [certainly]。如:的决(处决;处斩);的的(特意)
(4) 另见 de;dì


(1) 用在状语和中心词之间 [used after an adj.,noun,adverb or verb,etc.to form an adverbial adjunct]。如:他认真地学习;天气渐渐地冷了;有计划地安排生活。又表示动态,相当于“着”。常附在立、卧、坐等不及物动词的后头
后妻向床上卧地不起。——《舜子变文》
(2) 还用于状语后或补语前
相看月未坠,白地断肝肠。——唐· 杜甫《越女词》
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by YoakeNoHikari »

Damn, that's complicated. I prefer my three example sentences. ^^
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by Doraneko »

YoakeNoHikari wrote:Damn, that's complicated.
Yea. In general the Chinese language takes a minimalist approach, meaning less grammar stuff to memorize on the surface, but each grammar item has a whole lot of meanings and radically different uses attached to it. As contradictory as it may sound, its simplicity inevitably contributes to its complexity.

I prefer my three example sentences. ^^
With respect, the "的" in your example of "小的鳥" serves a very different grammatical function when compared to the ones in "真的是" and "你指的用途." To start with, note the nature of the word preceding "的". More specifically it is for showing a modifying relationship between the preceding attribute of "小" and the succeeding noun of "鳥", by effectively turning "小" into an adjective (i.e. 形容詞作定語). Refer to definition 助1 in my previous quote. :)

小 - attribute (小的 = adjective)
真 - adverb
指 - verb
Last edited by Doraneko on Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by YoakeNoHikari »

Well, that is certainly true.

I guess that native speakers do not realize how 'complex' it is.
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Re: 『いつか天魔の黒ウサギ』の翻訳の研究

Post by larethian »

any smart way to translate 通学路?
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