How to organise the Discussions here

[the_naming_game]

Having had a chance to see how things worked for awhile, I've (as usual) come up with a very long post detailing my thoughts.

As I see it, the cons of keeping all discussion on the wiki:

• talk pages can get very long and unwieldy
• Forums are definitely better for "comments and suggestions" drive-by type things. Like "great project!", and "can I make a pdf from this?"
• Forums are also better for "bike shed" discussions and polls, aka "shinjin & locked spaces" (I'm still keeping the torch alive!), etc.
• It's nice to have a good place for discussion of things not directly related to the wiki projects.

And the pros:

• You can scan through several discussions at once on one talk page, without all that clicking. So it's easy to find something to add to. That small bit of friction will not stop someone who's dedicated, but for the passing anonymous user, it definitely will.
  
  You might say that this is a worthwhile filter, but dedication isn't necessarily a direct correlate of value, since the number of undedicated but constructive people will always be higher, just because there are FAR more undedicated people out there. (those who just happen to be passing by, and want to add some input, fix something, clarify something, etc.)
• You can track all updates to the discussion on the Special:Recentchanges page -- in fact, you can keep track of just about anything from that page. It's incredibly convenient to be able to find out about updates, and immediately click to the discussion from there. If the discussions are in the forum, then (barring a "recent posts" feature) you just have to check each forum to see if there are any discussions of interest to you.

(small example: BlckKnght recently started a topic on "coffee" [vol1ch5] -- and I probably would have never looked at it if he hadn't put a small blurb about "check forums" in his summary line.)


Note that the cons of forums could be worked around, more or less.

• "Recently active threads" feature. With something like this, (vs a "recent posts" feature.) an incredibly active thread wouldn't drown out the ability to see that there was activity in another thread. (I found something here, but I have not tried it out; can't vouch for it.)
• View the full text of the last N posts of every recently active thread -- or of every thread within a certain forum/volume/chapter topic. (I haven't been able to find this, but it's not really an easy concept to search for.)
• Add a blurb in your edit summary if you've made a related post in the forum.

This still increases the number of places to check from one to two. But that's still MUCH better than having to browse each thread. Again, it's all about decreasing the friction. Wikis have incredibly low friction. (If there was some automated way to connect the bulletin board to the wiki, that would probably be closer to ideal.)


In light of the points I've put forth, I suggest this compromise:

1. Keep most discussion in the wiki. Archive old discussions on a subpage of the talk page. (What you get free with subpages: "links to all ancestor pages are shown automatically" + ability to use relative links.)
   
   First section of current talk page can have a list of archived topics with links to the corresponding page. Note that there would still be anchors that can be linked to with Page_name#These_kinds_of_links -- That way links don't get broken. (also, with the method used here, you can create anchors without cluttering the TOC with old topic headings.)
   
   before:

   Code: Select all

   == archived topics ==
   == Topic 1 ==
   lots of text here
   == Topic 2 ==
   lots of text here
   === Topic 2 subtopic ===
   == Topic 3 ==
   not much text here
   

   after:

   Code: Select all

   == Archived topics ==
   <!-- this works the same as an anchor name.  I've tried it in both Internet Explorer and Firefox -->
   <!-- the link goes to "This_Page/archive 1#Topic 1" -->
   <span id="Topic 1">[[/archive 1#Topic 1|Topic 1]]</span>
   
   <span id="Topic 2">[[/archive 2#Topic 2|Topic 2]]</span>
   :<span id="Topic 2 subtopic">[[/archive 2#Topic 2 subtopic|Topic 2 subtopic]]</span>
   == Topic 3 ==
   not much text here
   

   (I'm pretty sure the repetitive stuff can be done with a template. hmmm ... BlckKnight?)
2. Start all polls/major discussions with a link to a forum thread, and then when discussion is finished, add a summary to the talk page. This works great for big topics, because you have the link from the front page, as well as the talk page link. So if people are looking through the wiki, they WILL find it. (For smaller topics, this isn't as good an idea, because with those, you don't really know if you feel like replying until you've read some of it. And few people-just-passing-by have the wherewithal to click through and read all those small topics.)
3. If a conversation is starting to get long and off topic, one of the participants can create a link to a forum thread, and continue it there. The main non-meandering discussion (if there is one) can continue on the talk page. The rationale for this is that only dedicated people take part in meandering and involved discussions anyway.

Anyway, I see this as one way of dealing with the ever-growing talk pages, while retaining the convenience of the wiki, and also leveraging the advantages of the forums. Whew. Now to find something less involved to think about...

[psieye]

Hmm... the point about the Wiki being better for casuals is true and we do want to aim for them. The Subpage feature seems good - that was one of my two problems with Talk pages on the Wiki: old topics being mixed in with active topics. If someone adds something new to them, I guess they could add a small blurb in the parent Talk page of "updated: ~~~~" to notify "recent changes" pages


In essence, I agree with your approach of keeping the Wiki nice and simple. Major discussions and off-topic talk being shuttled away to the forum to be 'cooked' and the results brought back to the Wiki.

Now for the difficulty of actually applying this in practice... Me I use the "updated posts since your last visit get coloured" feature but it does involve a lot of clicking to get at each topic. I guess getting the Wiki up to date with what goes on with the forums is best for the casual who only wants to look at what he wants with minimal friction. Simply leave "updated: ~~~~" signatures to forum links when you post in that thread?

[the_naming_game]

Sorry for not replying sooner. Whenever I checked the thread at its old location, I was always listed as the last poster. (yet another example of friction slowing interaction / idea exchange.)

I actually had a very long post lined up, but I'd rather not overload everyone unnecessarily. Let me just say that while helpers like the colored posts, and updating the wiki to reflect the forums, are convenient -- in the end, they're just bandaids to patch back what was already there at the start. And like all bandaids, they don't provide nearly as complete a solution as a wiki in its normal usage pattern. (That is, a wiki that is well-maintained, does its intended job far better than a forum that is well-maintained)

Let's say you're reading the novel.
You have an issue with part of the translation / wording. The talk page is right there -- one click, convenient, targetted. It's exactly the page you're looking for to discuss this particular chapter.

(If the wiki had more forum-like features in order to be able to better handle concurrent posting, and automatically moving less active topics to an archive page, then I would say that the wiki is perfect.

But even as it stands, these weaknesses do not pose much of a problem in practice, especially with the current activity level of this wiki. The practical benefits far outweigh the practical inconveniences.)

Once on this talk page, there are likely to be other things you're interested in, since your current interest is this particular chapter. Having everything on one page makes it far easier to skim.

Of course, the forum isn't going to go away any time soon
And I don't really want it to, since there is much more to discuss than just those directly Novel-Translation-related things. But the wiki is mostly perfect for discussion of things that go on in the wiki. Even in this current time of forum hegemony, rogue factions still lurk in the wiki, having conversations here and there. Yes, the wiki-zens will rise again, let there be no doubt!

(A roar rises from the crowd; the guards shuffle uneasily in their ill-fitting armor and plumed helmets.)

I've seen some interesting issues (yes, on topic, having to do with wording in a chapter, etc.) raised in the wiki recently, and I'm sure they'll get a lot more discussion with the extra exposure that wiki talk pages get.

Coexistence of forum and wiki.
No matter what, there are going to be some topics that could easily go either on the forums or the wiki. (something I would term as the tyranny of choice. Go check some guy called Barry Schwartz.) So no matter what, to keep up with events at the Translation Project, people are going to have to check both. Some things in order to make this easier:

• a link to the forums on the sidebar. Having the forum link on every single page on the wiki will probably increase traffic considerably, compared with just having it on the main Suzumiya Haruhi page.
  (When the link is right there, it's easy to think to yourself "I haven't checked the forums in awhile.. hmmm" -- I know I'm like that with the "Recent changes" page on the sidebar.)
• install a "last N posts in the forum, arranged by topic" mod to phpbb. I actually have a proof-of-concept working, and am currently polishing it for prime-time. (Mostly html style issues, and adding parameters to allow customized behavior.)
  
  What this does is essentially add some of the wiki's "all on one page" power to the forums.
  (Once you try something like this out, you'll probably realize what I've been saying about the "all on one page" digest of posts being THE easiest and fastest way to skim a forum.)
• a direct link to the previously described mod from the wiki sidebar.
  (I, would of course, have a page like this bookmarked with an address bar alias -- a great Firefox feature, by the way.
  But if you want to expose as many people as possible to the discussions going on in the forums, this is pretty optimal. One click from anywhere in the wiki. Instant gratification.)

The idea being, basically to make the forums dead easy to get to from the wiki. Hmmm. It might be good to make the same true, vice versa?

• I wonder if it's possible to change where it says "The Baka-Tsuki Open Translation Project" on the top of every page, so that it links to the wiki.

(Ok, this turned out a little longer than I intended. Oh well.)

[the_naming_game]

Talk about crickets...

In any case, here is a "mod" that does what I described before, more or less. That is, it shows all recent posts on one page, grouped by topic, of course. With nice jump links, and the ability to drill down, selecting only certain categories and forums. Or at least that's the idea. It worked on my dinky little setup. It doesn't require any file modification of the phpbb2 files, just a single file upload, so easy install.

I had the basic functionality done before, but before I knew it, I started finding more and more things that needed adding, and ... blah blah -- I definitely don't want to see this code for awhile.

A small snippet from the source code:

Code: Select all

// YUKI.N>
$sql_format =
	"SELECT".
	"    %s\n".
	"  FROM".
	"    %s\n".
	"    $sq_from_tables\n".
	"  WHERE\n".
	"    $sq_lim".
	"    %s\n".
	"  %s";

Speaking of which. I've heard of Moe books for teaching law. Even if I'm currently sick of SQL, I'd definitely buy a Yuki book about it.

Alright, to stop rambling for a moment
Could I ask some people who run phpBB2 forums (Well, I'm primarily interested in this one, the reason being that this is probably the only phpbb board that I frequent -- but any are fine for helping with testing, of course.) to try it out and give some feed-back?

('the hell? "feed-back" without the dash in between translates to "poke"?? who comes up with these wordlists?)

I'm in a good mood right now. I've been saving Utawarerumono ep8 for a non-busy time, that has arrived. And as for Haruhi, all I can say is CARDIGAN. And do you really have to ask me which one? (Hmm .. I'm starting to ramble again)

Hopefully, this file attachment thing works.

[onizuka-gto]

feeback! feeeeedback...feed back, feed-back feedback.

hmmm....
the worlds gone mad!

I hate those wildcard "*" always show me up....


*tries to sort it out*

[the_naming_game]

Thanks for responding to my feed ... er poke? Who thought I'd ever be using leetspeak to give ph33db4ck...

Ehhh, while I feel word censorship is pretty ineffective at its intended task, and quite effective at its unintended task, (making people's messages say strange things) I would say don't worry about it. People who don't preview their posts deserve the fate they get! HAHAHA. Er. Right.

But yes, either toss 'em altogether, or forget them. Because messing with word censors will just rot your brain.
(just in case that was incomprehensible to the British, who have that term "tosser" -- "toss" can mean to throw away, so --
"either throw out word censors altogether, or just forget about trying to get them to work right.")

Note:
I just noticed that you can't even tell a post has an attachment unless you're logged in. For all those who browsed this thread while not logged in -- My previous post in this thread had an attachment of a phpbb2 addon. I'm looking for f-e-e-d-b-a-c-k on it. There are a few bugs that I've fixed since, (guest posts now show their entered names.) and some missing features I've halfway kludged in, (page counter for the page, piggybacked onto the topic view counter mechanism + show last post time and user for forums you have View, but not Read access for -- same as the index.php page does.) but the file as attached works fine.

[onizuka-gto]

I hope thelastguardian tries your mod, I think he's really busy at this moment, but hopefully he has a look in here, and try it out.

(^_^)

[the_naming_game]

It's possible (sniff) that this script will never see the light of day on this server, so in any case, I wanted to give it its time in the sun, however brief.
(For it to die, is not the sad thing. It is for it to die without having ever flown.)

http://temporaryserver.ath.cx:15498/ (interesting port number, eh? that is, if you're a true Haruhist.)

I'll try to keep it up for about a month.

I probably should have done this earlier, but I don't really have a web presence, nor am I interested in such. But doing this certainly lowers the barrier of entry, thus extolling my greatly vaunted concept of "reducing friction."

The code has gotten more and more convoluted, BUT I can honestly say for ... most of it, that it's because it's doing something convoluted.

If anyone ends up actually using this script, please let me know. It'd just be interesting to know if anyone ever actually did use it.

Again, for those viewing this in guest mode. The latest source code is attached, which you can download if you log in. Though I could have just had a download area on the server, the baka-tsuki server is definitely going to be around longer than mine.

[the_naming_game]

I realized recently that I hadn't opened the Sacred Port to the firewall. Hence, if anybody actually tried my link previously, it wouldn't have worked.

Then again, there weren't any complaints/comments, so it looks like no one tried it. In any case, apologies to ... whoever. The link in my previous post is actually live now.