Rental Magica

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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

larethian wrote:I'm still a long way to catching up even though I have up till volume 19. but I must agree and say that RM is one the most underrated LNs.
I would agree. Personally, I like this way more than Index. I can't really understand the popularity of Index...

Index undergoes some big changes, but RM does it, but overall, be it plot, character development, story telling, how interesting it is, I would say RM wins hands down! I would think Index cant even be compared against half of RM. Its just that good! I cant wait to find out more of the stunts he is going to pull off! I can hardly imagine it!!
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by kuroi_shinigami »

Well, you guys make me want to read this novel now :lol: Too bad there's too many volume out already and it's practically impossible for me to catch up unless it get translated lightning-speed like Index (my Japanese reading speed is only tenth of my English reading speed :oops: ) :lol: .

What make this series special in your opinion? I actually like Index because I like Touma(including his long preach too, even if a lot of people hate it), not to mention likable side characters and heroine(although main heroine Index barely pass). What about this one? What's the series strong point? Plot? Character? Humor? World Setting?
Fill in the blank : She ( ) a bus

Yoshii Akihisa's answer : She is a bus

Tsuchiya Kouta's answer : 彼女はブスです
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

kuroi_shinigami wrote:Well, you guys make me want to read this novel now :lol: Too bad there's too many volume out already and it's practically impossible for me to catch up unless it get translated lightning-speed like Index (my Japanese reading speed is only tenth of my English reading speed :oops: ) :lol: .

What make this series special in your opinion? I actually like Index because I like Touma(including his long preach too, even if a lot of people hate it), not to mention likable side characters and heroine(although main heroine Index barely pass). What about this one? What's the series strong point? Plot? Character? Humor? World Setting?
I shall compare RM with Index, being the fact that both are based off Magic, or at least at first.

Index, in its first part, has many different girls introduced, however, does not have character depth. RM on the other hand, has built a lot of character, while covering a lot of their pasts. (P.S. there are a few girls in Index I kinda like too, but due to their lack of eventual appearance, or their appearance destroying their initial character, I kinda hate Index, so you can treat it as a personal grudge)

Index eventually lost the magical touch, mainly being at first they mentioned how hard it is to pull off the really powerful magic and stuff, but later on, you see them pulling off such stunts at the snap of a finger or so, at the same time being overly far-fetched. RM maintains that idea all along, which at one point put the company at crisis as they have to pay for each of their jobs, eventually they got out of it, but you get what I mean.

Index tries very hard to make Touma "plain and unfortunate", despite the fact that he isn't so. He is actually very lucky and overly powerful. He seems to be just saying that he is unfortunate from time to time to give that impression, which is so fake. The protagonist of RM on the other hand is plain and useless. He has an eye that grants him great strength, but this power, as it was eventually revealed, is not his. He eventually has to seek out his own powers, through martial arts and long training and reading all kinds of magical books. In short, Index gives very big jumps in Touma's power level. RM really has to move on slowly, as he slowly struggles to do what he can, which is almost nothing at first.

Plot wise, Index focuses on Magic VS Science, whereas RM focuses only on Magic. Plot wise, I guess both are acceptable in their own ways, but as the author for Index tries to hide Magic from the Science area or so, it becomes very draggy. On the other hand, RM has several very well-formed arcs, such as the betrayal of one of the main heroines, the loss of some of his members, thus forcing him to take on a bigger role, and many others. Furthermore, from the latest few volumes of RM I read, it becomes rather tactical and intellectual, since in terms of magical powers, their company can't do anything, as compared to the big organizations that are formed centuries ago. So the idea and methods used is rather interesting. Index seems to be just pushing it through, thinking "I am the author, so anything I say goes".

In world setting, Index is based off a fictional world, with references to religions. On the other hand, RM is based off religions, with depths into the magic used and the ideas behind the magic in some points. For example, the knights of RM is based off the exorcism in the past, so their equipment is rather unified, allowing close cooperation between them. Each of the religion and magic they use have their own requirements and needs. One of the enemies uses a magic that requires the internal organs of people, some uses runes, or perhaps wood. Interesting ideas such as the activation of magic by drawing with their tongue so others are unable to see, or mere steps are taken in a certain fashion to activate magic. It is vast and explained, whereas I think Index is a little lacking in this sense, though it cannot be blamed as it is not a purely magic novel.

As for heroines, I would take the female leads to be Index and Biri biri? For RM, the heroines would be one, his childhood friend, which is one reason for his accursed eye. Later on, upon reunion, the daughter of a great company, together with great talents, earning her the title by some as "Princess of Solomon", meets the protagonist. But as he is just an average school kid, he tries to bend the magic world to what he knows, the normal daily lives he has been, so he attracts these people instead. Most magicians are usually binded by their chains of magical knowledge, and fails to seek new possibilities, but due to him being an abnormality, he eventually led the magicians to think that perhaps there is more than what they know currently. Despite this, the two heroines are currently away from the protagonist. Reason being that in order to save the protagonist, who was considered a "taboo" due to his eye, offered herself to be the lackey of the biggest organization taking care of magicians world-wide. The other heroine wanted fair competition, and due to her position, she was forced to kill the protagonist when he was considered a "taboo" as she needed to protect her own organization. Furthermore, she soughts great strength, and thus would need to offer a suitable sacrifice to the minions of Solomon to do so. In such, her greatest treasure would be her memories, or perhaps feelings... (NOTE: She has already once offered her "future" to one of the greatest minions)

Overall, I think RM is a very very good novel, definitely worth reading, and I think Index cant beat RM, but it is my personal opinion. In terms of humor, RM does not have much humor, despite how peaceful it can be at times, giving you a smile on the face, but not that much of a laugh.
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by kuroi_shinigami »

Magic-wise, what I like about Index is that the story-telling makes the magic and science in that world looks like conspiracy theory, that is, the thing being explain exist in the real world, but when explained in the story to fit the magic theory of the world, it somehow makes you think could it be the explanation could be true after all?(although rationally you know that it's plain impossible, but the backing of pseudo-science and pseudo-occult make it sound believable :lol: )

As for Touma, I don't agree with your opinion that he's actually lucky. I mean, he's just an average high-school boy, but he has to face many life-threatening battle and he doesn't get out of the battle unscathed(he does survive, but he does feel the pain of the injury and sometimes it's not the death that makes it unbearable, it's the pain.). And mind you, he doesn't go to the battle because he wants it, but because he has to to saves the person he cares about. What about the protagonist in RM? Does he went to battle for something he wants or he just get dragged to it because of his eyes?

About protagonist power, I agree that although Touma himself thinks that it's useless, his ability is actually god-like tier. Even so, I don't mind a protagonist with a god-like tier power as long as he act like one, as in he doesn't struggle against the enemy and finish the battle in a cool way(think something like Onizuka in battle, or Kenshin's earlier arc). In fact, I hate the struggling protagonist type more because sometimes it makes me think, if they plan to give him power-up from the start, why not make him strong right away? Why the bother of giving him power-up arc just to keep up with the enemy? Why don't the author keep him weak till the end and let him survives based on intelligence and tactics alone? Or maybe survives just on persistence alone? How about the protagonist in RM? does the power-up of the protagonist feels very shounen-like where it was done only to make him cooler or keeping up with the ever stronger enemy?(think something like Bleach, One Piece, or Naruto like version of powering up protagonist) Or there's a valid "in-the-world" reason for him to strive for that power-up?

As for heroine, I do like Misaka, but I actually like the side character heroine more(along the line of Itsuwa, Misaka-imouto, Takitsubo for Hamazura). In fact, the reason I bring about character likability is not because of the main heroine(which IMO has very little screen-time in Index), but because in every volume, they always manage to bring up at least 1 interesting side character(people like Kuroko, Aogami Pierce, Aqua, Tsuchimikado, Heaven's Canceller) or antagonist(Aleister, Aiwass, Laura). They don't come out often, but when they do, it's always fun to watch either because either they look cool or they're hilarious. What about in RM? How main-protagonist and heroine heavy is the story-telling? Or is there always a fun side character in each volume that gets the spotlight?

Once again, I'm sure RM is at least above average from both Shadow's and lare's comment, and due to time constraint I would probably never catch up with a series that already have this many volume, but I'm just curious about it, and maybe after I know more details I might be tempted to read 2/3 volumes :mrgreen:
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Tsuchiya Kouta's answer : 彼女はブスです
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

The actual theory of the magic of RM is not exactly explained, but just as in Index, magic lost its value in many ways. Magic is dying off, and is thus mages have to hide their identities. This is the norm, at least, until someone considered bringing magic back into the world. This is very similar to Index, but its different as its not Science VS Magic, but a conflict of beliefs. The magic in RM is hard to explain, but unlike Index, it is not really based off religion, but more of a blood lineage, which personally I can't accept, while it is true. The son/daughter of a great mage is likely to be able to possess greater powers of some guy on the street. This is one reason why the long-established organizations holds great power. And despite you saying that the conspiracies between magic and science may sound true, things always take a very naive change for the end, which is disappointing in many ways.

For Touma, I honestly believe that he is actually lucky. The question is not how he gets hurt, but how he can always win, with things bending all to his side at the end all of a sudden. For example, when he was fighting against the woman with the paper strips to cast her magic, despite his ignorance and charging in, without knowing the fact that her magic wont work in the same place, he manages to hit her and win. This is clearly not skill, but chance? Would that not be his "Luck"? If he truly is unfortunate, he would have lost many times. Similarly, his luck with females is clearly NOT unlucky, nor when he cried out how "unlucky" he was when looking for his passport,or when he is falling to his death in some way, he will always get saved by miraculous forces. If you think about most happenings to him, it is definitely more lucky than unlucky.

P.S. I personally think that a person that is not lucky is not unlucky, so as long as he stops crying out "I am so unfortunate", i am fine with it. Just as his luck cannot be a positive value, it shouldnt be negative either, due to his hand.

Now to talk about the protagonist of RM. At first, he was just a school kid. however, due to the disappearance of his father, he was eventually made to sit in the place of his father, as the leader of a company. If he didnt, the company, which is the safehouse for some members, would be taken away, and they would have to return their own hellish nightmares. Thus he was forced into it. Despite this, he is still just an average human, thus he does not judge things by magician standards. What we find unacceptable, such as human sacrifices and all, he is unable to accept either. The norms of magicians are ridiculous to him, and vice versa, magicians think of him as naive, or crazy, and he eventually proves his point. However, despite his school identity, he possesses an unique eye grants him great powers, that would rival even the greatest magicians in the world. This is not his power though, and it comes at a price of great pain and the eye slowly taking control of his mind and body, burning him out, thus the members try their best not to rely on it, until they have no choice. He eventually tries to seek ways where he can not rely on his eye, such as martial arts, or not use it at full power, but it may not always work out. At the same time, due to this overly powerful eye, you can almost say he is allergic to strong magic. Which explains a lot in his sudden useful/uselessness. This provides a better explanation compared to the Touma "Berserker" ability(take a certain amount of damage, and he gets power boosts, so much so he can own even bosses). Eventually, up to where I read, his eye is almost useless, as he relies on his wits and crazy thinking to get out of the situation and change the (magic) world.

As for heroines, I like a few heroines, but I would stick to my idea on Index when I first started the series, that the author is just dumping a girl to him every volume and then forgetting about them after that. This is not so true about the later parts, but you can see the serious lack of appearance of some characters. Despite brief mentions, they hardly exist in the story.

RM on the other hand is a more serious story. In some cases, new members are dragged into the plot, and they may or may not be reappearing, you never know. However, the main casts will always stay. Some girls like the protagonist, but there is only two main heroines. Even when the story focuses on one member or a few characters, you can see the character and sometimes thoughts and problems that others(especially females) face. Some events that seem unrelated may prove you wrong later on. Its not a novel on the humorous side, but it would bring you joy, with a smile on the face when you get the happy, or rather, the daily ending... This is as I said, because the magician's world is quite crazy, especially in our eyes, so our normal or daily bliss is actually their wildest dreams and imaginations. You will see the pain and suffering, yet you may shed tears for them just to be able to return home to a place where they can rant and make noise, or sip just their daily tea. For one, the protagonist is currently having a very big dream: "To gather all his members in the company once more." (This is because some were separated due to his uselessness) And this dream lets him challenge the impossibles of the magic world. There will not be so much fun, but its a story thats definitely worth reading.
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by larethian »

firstly, there are 3 things that can suck me in:
1. Epic story with a large cast
2. Fantasies (my fantasy definition is pretty broad, it includes LNs like HnA), ie. to say I'd pick a fantasy over a slice of life story; magic and fantastic creatures is a plus
3. Stories that play with my mind, in other words MF-ing plots

I didn't want to post, because Shadow has already explained plus components of RM in great detail @_@. But since Index is being compared, and being one of my favourite, though not my favourite, series, I needed to chip in a little :lol:

Firstly, I love Index because it fits both (1) and (2) of things that can sucker me in, especially (1). However, I love all aspects of Index except for the characters. Well actually, I do like the characters of Index, it's just that for a story of such an epic scale, it's characters are somewhat lacking compared to other epic novels I've read, especially in the background story department. I don't nitpick too much for smaller scale plots or gag (ie. comedy in English) series, but for something like Index, the story and characters don't balance well in my opinion. Simply said, perhaps except for some aspects of Accelerator, they don't stir my emotions that much; I can't connect with them deeply, and their actions are most of the time purely actions, driven by current circumstances. Because the characters lack depth and background stories, there's no concrete justification as to how a character behaves in a certain manner. Touma is actually the worst of this example. It just doesn't make sense to me for someone without any memories and concrete background basis, to behave in such an altruistic manner. The same can be said for many other characters in Index, and I would not want to repeat Shadow's point on the underdeveloped girls. That's why I find Accelerator to be notches above Touma in terms of characterization (not that I like Accelerator more than Touma). His actions are actually a little more congruent. Maybe even for Misaka-imouto as well. However, it's still not enough, I feel.

On the other hand, the background stories of characters from RM and DYD (which also has a large cast in an epic setting and many of the characters well developed in both main and side stories) are very rich and I get to understand a decision/action not just as a present-circumstance-driven decision/action but as a past-experiences-shaped thought process to lead to a decision/action in response to the present circumstance. Relatively poor characterization is actually the most glaring weakness of Index.

Plot wise, both Index and RM have very strong appeal to me. Index is really much more mind-blowing epic (at least for now, since I haven't caught up with RM) to me. The amazing thing about Index is in its set pieces (though still lose to One Piece, but nvm since it's a manga) and how they weave the story into a bigger picture.

We can't really compare themes but just to supplement what Shadow said. RM, true to its title, focuses on different branches of magic and gives more flavour in that aspect. Index is really science (esper) vs religion (magic); they are focusing on different things, and each has its own appeal. But RM's title is more congruent since it keeps to the central idea of renting magicians. A Certain Magical Index, though is somewhat a little misleading title, given how things unfold as the story progresses.

That being said, I'm definitely not slamming Index, which I chose to be one of my top five LNs ( for now at least ;) ). Nor am I saying RM wins Index (just highlighting some differences, that's all). DYD and RM also have their own issues, which I will not elaborate. It's just that I always find it a pity, even if I'm making a relative comparison, that such a great series has such lacklustre characters, which I feel is as important as the story, if not more so.
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

larethian wrote: That being said, I'm definitely not slamming Index, which I chose to be one of my top five LNs ( for now at least ;) ). Nor am I saying RM wins Index (just highlighting some differences, that's all). DYD and RM also have their own issues, which I will not elaborate. It's just that I always find it a pity, even if I'm making a relative comparison, that such a great series has such lacklustre characters, which I feel is as important as the story, if not more so.
I guess I just hate Index for the amount of money spent, without yielding good rewards, yet I am still spending... sighz, don't worry, its a personal thing.

That aside, I am actually quite interested in the issues that DYD and RM have, if you are willing to talk about them that is. Kinda interesting to see other peoples' points of view.
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by larethian »

well, every novel has its issues, nothing is perfect right. and I don't mean it in a big manner though :D. I'll talk about RM another time when I've caught up, I think I'm about 7 or 8 volumes behind IIRC, I've stopped for over a year (close to 2) because I was swamped by my work then. Maybe I'll pick it up again sometime later this year.

For DYD series, let's see what's at the top of my mind.
Firstly, Kagami over uses repeated patterns at times. For example, he likes to cut arms for some reason. In DYD, except for arm cutting, I don't remember much about how important characters get injured. Sui, Claugh, Ryner, even Froaude. How many times Sui, Claugh, and Ryner lost their arms? I find this amusing and facepalming at the same time. I also vaguely remember other less important characters getting the same treatment. Another repeated pattern is that a lot of people power up by devouring something (also true for Itsuten). Also, his vocab in certain descriptions is somewhat limited, though as a translator, it makes my life easier.

Secondly, some of the character antics and manzai he uses to create comedy seem out of place to me - characters throwing tsukkomis in a highly tensed situations (well actually more for Taito in Itsuten rather), I don't know, maybe it's meant to lower the tension level, and it may not be too much of a problem to others who enjoy it.

Thirdly, the flashbacks and reintroducing of things seem a little too much at times, at least for a person who has been reading the story since volume 1 and not jumping to a random volume.

Oh yeah, I was also having some expectations for the family known as the Spears of Roland, believed to be an equivalent to the Swords of Roland (Eris family) in the past. Somehow, they were not really touched on except for a brief introduction. I can't even remember the characters' names... but it seems like there was a chapter dedicated to them in Toriaezu series.

I can just remember these few for now, though they are more of nitpicks rather than major issues.
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

LOLz, I agree to some of the points about DYD. The arms cutting, haha, didnt really notice it much, maybe due to me having only read DYD and not the later volumes(as it is not out in chinese), but even so, it has happened several times.

Similarly, the number of female characters that has some past issues with our protagonist, and how similar they are in some cases. And in quite a few cases, the way the volume starts off is highly similar. This is a bane for me as well.

Anyways, hope I will be able to hear your comments on RM eventually!
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by kuroi_shinigami »

Well, no matter how good it is, a novel is still a fiction after all. There will always be a some flaws in the fantasy logic that will end up with the word "because the author will it to be like that" if you want to nitpick it. I agree with the unrealism of Touma heads into battle every time with having no memories at all, but IMO that's what make him look cool. He goes to battle because he believes what he does is right, and willing to fight for it, even if he has to bet on his life. It doesn't make sense for sure, but something that make sense is not cool IMO, and coolness is the only saving factor for Touma since we never get told about his background story yet so far :lol:

About Touma being lucky, I really have to disagree with that. Indeed, in the end he always manage to survive because of "plot armor" from the author, but once again, he does get injury, sometimes a very severe one, not for achieving something that he wants, but to protect the people around him. I mean, what's the chance of getting a nun who happens to be someone holding 130.000 grimoire on your balcony and at the same time having a troubled level 5 who have to fight the strongest esper in the city to be your acquaintance? Not to mention the snow-ball of event that happen to him that make him has to fight an angel and double saint and almost died because of it just because the church think him as dangerous even though he doesn't meant it? If that happen to you can you really tell that you're lucky just because you survive?

About shallowness of character, this I have to agree with. Some character was told in a volume to be such a deep, engaging and fun character, to only be mentioned later in a brief scene, but I guess that's to be expected in an action story with such a large cast.

Well, for RM though, it seems the protagonist is intriguing. I always have a soft spot for a protagonist who's weak, but actually use his mind to think of a way to win instead of just going into an endless level-up training to get stronger. I have to wonder though, how do the explain the theory of magic in RM? Do they have their own set of rules, some of which coincides with mundane things in the religion or magic cabal's rule in the real world? Or they can do magic as long as they do the ritual without explaining the meaning of the ritual?

The one thing I like about the magic in Index is that each got its own set of rule with a reason behind each ritual used, which make it looks more like pseudo-science with an occult flavor rather than pure magic. Of course, the magic in Index is more like a special skill that the religious people can use from angel's help rather than the common interpretation of magic, and it pales in comparison with the pseudo-science in there, but I still feel that all the rules and explanation(fictional of course, but conspiracy-theory fiction rather than far-fetched fiction) really intrigued me when reading it.
Fill in the blank : She ( ) a bus

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Tsuchiya Kouta's answer : 彼女はブスです
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by ShadowZeroHeart »

kuroi_shinigami wrote: Well, for RM though, it seems the protagonist is intriguing. I always have a soft spot for a protagonist who's weak, but actually use his mind to think of a way to win instead of just going into an endless level-up training to get stronger. I have to wonder though, how do the explain the theory of magic in RM? Do they have their own set of rules, some of which coincides with mundane things in the religion or magic cabal's rule in the real world? Or they can do magic as long as they do the ritual without explaining the meaning of the ritual?
I am not saying Touma is extremely lucky, but with normal luck. Actually, hes luckier than most people out there. How many people would join those battles and died, without doing anything, as "Passer-by A"? He is in the core of the situations and gets out alive. The others are victims without even finding out why or what happened. Enough of Index I guess? Back to RM.

RM first lets you understand all the different types of magic the novel introduces. This does not really give a total generic way of magic, which makes it a little hard to explain. Yes, they all bear magical powers, to some extent. Even alchemy and the creations they make are considered to be magic, despite not having much real magic involved. Magical items are magic too. The two heroines would rely on their magic, one using a long lost magic of nature, the Celtic magic, magic of a Druid, the other by summoning the minions of famous Solomon. For the first, she has to seek out wood that possesses pure or magical traits, so much so she had to start growing some herself. For the latter, she had to make a contract/pact with them by negotiating in some way, and in one case i mentioned, she offered her "future" to one of the four greatest minions of Solomon as a tribute to gain power.

One of the girls, a miko, would require the power of the Gods of Japan, the power of Shinto to gain power. This is very strong, being able to refuse entry of demonic powers in a divine zone you draw. However, this in turn means she is greatly weakened when outside of Japan, and the paper and salt she uses rapidly deteriorates under such situations. A ghost would use Poltergeist.

Each type of magic requires their own ways of activation, and has their own history, which makes it really hard to explain this way. But most will have their origins traced.
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by larethian »

if you want Teh Ping to work on this series, poll here: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4553
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hamadaanime
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by hamadaanime »

thank you i liked this idea
and i want to know is this novel complete or it's still ongoing in Japan
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hamadaanime
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by hamadaanime »

Kira0802 wrote:Which is the latest volume?

21
i am really looking forward to read this novel
but sadly no translators :cry: :cry:
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harem.king
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Re: Rental Magica by Makoto Sanda

Post by harem.king »

thank you for this project
i like to read novel but unfortunately i can't because no translator want it :wink:
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