TAMnI: The present problem of past/present tenses

[Kadi]

"Mixed = as in the original" as in "1:1 translated tenses from Japanese"? Won't work. Ever. Forget it. Eusth (my translator) tried it and I went batshit on him. Reason: Lack of tenses in Japanese. Only 2 tenses (present and past) + progressive form. Even worse if you're translating from Chinese, from what I've heard (1 tense).

Now, seriously. 1:1 adapted tenses from the Japanese don't work. They (tenses in Japanese) are too different. I couldn't even explain how the Japanese exactly do their tenses, but experience says translating 1:1 doesn't work.

[Enigma]

Anyway, does anyone know of any English books that uses present tense exclusively?

Apparently Starborne by Robert Silverberg fits what we're trying to do: third-person, present tense. I've picked it up but haven't actually fully (or even mostly) read it yet (I've been revising my edits of volume 13 slowly) to also use it as a reference.

The narrator in TAMnI sometimes do recaps and there is no way to do those without using past tense.

Oddly, too. At the beginning of volume 13, he summarizes what Vento is doing at a certain time, and based off Joay's original tenses (since he just translates the tenses), 6:33PM is when Vento kills 3 directors, whereas the two prior sentences had already happened by that time. The lines:

Spoiler! :

September 30, 6:33PM.

One person from [God's Right Seat], [Vento of the Front], physically broke through Academy City's Gate No. 3.

At the same time, an unidentified attack was launched, inflicting massive damage to both Anti-Skill and Judgment, the people in charge of public order.

With the defenses down, Vento herself kills three of the general board of directors.

I'm likely just thinking too much and it'd probably be safer just to change the last sentence to past tense as well, wouldn't it?

[Darklor]

Funny thing I wouldnt see a problem - maybe my english is really too bad...

Btw.

Spoiler! :

That sounds like a really bloody novel?

[Kadi]

But there is one (a problem). In short, it's better in past tense. In present tense it's not as bad as I first thought when I read the spoiler, but it's better in past tense. Interpret it as a recapitulation what has already happened (at the end of Vol 12), where you use past tense. Then, in part 2, the main story/narration starts in present tense. Or whatever you decide on.

[MerrickXasis]

What's worse is that there is no actual "tense" in Chinese...at least to my knowledge. (not sure if anyone mentioned this point)
Compound with the fact that my teachers constantly write on my essays to "stick to one tense", I can see boatloads of errors coming up.

[thewizardninja]

After Daihaseisai, the workers have been in alert mode as they continue to remove the equipment, and during these days, the students now get a break. Maybe it’s because they tried to force the planning of the trip that resulted in this being so urgent — to ask for a passport in this situation, if something is to happen, he doesn’t know how to explain it.

The glaring problem here is actually not the use of present tense over past tense but is in fact the use of present tense over future tense. It should be "If something were to happen, he wouldn't know how to explain it.", regardless of whether the dominant tense is past or present.

Also the workers are still in alert mode and removing equipment. Since that line goes on to say "and during these days, the students now get a break", and Kamijou is only able to go on the trip to Italy because he is ON that break, it makes sense to assume the removal of equipment is still going on. Hence "have been" is an appropriate term to use, if you're using present tense of course. If you were using past tense I assume you would use "had been", I might be wrong though.
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Sorry I went off-topic for a bit. Personally I think you should keep the present tense as the dominant tense, although it's the more difficult of the two it's a much more versatile tense when used correctly, seeing as you can easily separate events into present, past and future events rather than just past, further in the past and future events. It's also much more interesting that way and it puts you more in the moment.

That being said you should never resort to using only one tense. If the past is being talked about you should use past tense regardless of whether you're dominant tense is past or present, bearing in mind that means the past in relation to the scene you're in at the moment not the past in relation to where the "main" scene is. So if somebody is talking about their past or the narrator is describing what previously happened then you would use past tense, however if the text jumps backwards in time and you get shown a scene that happens before the point you were originally at then the dominant tense would be used. Also future tense should ALWAYS be used when referencing things that will happen in the future, no exceptions, and if you choose to use past tense as the dominant tense then present tense can never be used (by the narrator at least).

tl;dr
Present tense for present events, past tense for past events and future tense for future events. That makes sense doesn't it?

P.S. What a whopper of a first post XD

[Enigma]

Realized there might be some problems with the 'mixed' portion of the poll. Assuming by mixed tense it means the novel's original tenses, it seems that people are mistaking it for present tense. We definitely shouldn't tell obvious past events in present tense and the like, and if you notice any overlooked mistakes or errors (I tend to miss a lot for various reason, though I'll avoid going into detail), go right ahead and fix them since it's a wiki and all. Besides, I edit as I read (I should probably read, then go back and re-read while editing), and probably won't go back and read 8–11 for a while. Not to mention how we have way more translators than editors is simply shocking.

And from what people have been saying about the Chinese one-tense issue, since a good chunk of the translators are translating from Chinese, would they even be able to replicate the author's bizarre mix of tenses?

[SilverPhyX]

As for me, I'm sorta sticking with whatever makes sense while I'm editing. I think the biggest problem here is that we're not exactly sure what the dominant perspective of the narrator is.

It could be someone telling a story that's already happened, which would mean most of the narration is in past tense. I personally subscribe to this view. "Narration" includes descriptions and non-dialogue, basically.

Or, it could be something along the lines of a documentary, which describes everything as its taking place, and uses all present tense. I think the author uses this mostly in the action scenes, such as Kanzaki fighting the Knights, etc. I do not believe this perspective applies to the whole story, though I could be wrong.

I'm personally for mostly past tense, and then switching when appropriate.

EDIT: Oh man, after going back through volume 7 and actually paying attention to the tenses, everything is pretty much in the present tense, and it works for me. I can see how one could go about changing everything to past tense, but I am not sure the dominant tense for the Index LNs the past tense anymore.

[Enigma]

EDIT: Oh man, after going back through volume 7 and actually paying attention to the tenses, everything is pretty much in the present tense, and it works for me. I can see how one could go about changing everything to past tense, but I am not sure the dominant tense for the Index LNs the past tense anymore.

If you look at a translator's original revision, you could probably get a good idea of what tense you like. Teh Ping generally likes present (7-11), Joay translates the tenses as-is (12-13), and Flere translates in past tense (22). I personally like it as present tense, though that in itself is quite the horrible argument, isn't it? If I could figure out why, I'd have an essay-long post already. As it is, I don't really have any bonus points for either past or present tenses.

Also, is there a reason I don't have the option to change my vote on this poll but I do for others?

[Darklor]

Havent thought it would be necessary to allow revote for that...

So what did you vote and what would you vote now?

[Enigma]

I voted present tense and I don't necessarily want to change my vote at the moment. I just noticed there wasn't an option, and opinions can change.

[Teh_ping]

Another question, how long are we going to leave the poll on?

[Kratos]

I don't know what tenses means but if its past and present then just do it like this: if something already happen use past tenses and if something is happening use present tenses

[Snorca]

It's a method of writing stories. The general style is the write in past tense because if someone were to tell you a story, he would tell you the story that had happened. This is under the logic that the story he's telling is something that has obviously happened already or else he wouldn't be sitting down telling you it. This is the main argument for telling stories in past tense, the story told has already happened. The main issue for this style is how the author often goes back and talks about events that had happened. However, there is often no problem in the transition since he always says how far back the flashback is, but at the same time, it's more easily noticed when the tense suddenly changes.

The argument for present tense storytelling is that it gives the reader a sense of "being in the story at the moment". This gives the feeling of intense action that really works wonderfully in action scenes. However, this style does not work as well when actions are being explained or anything that has nothing to do with actions. In these styles of writing, it is more preferred for characters in the story to do the explanation and for the POV to be first person. Also, this feeling of being in the moment comes at a cost of being choppy and lack of sense of sequence. There is no feeling of pauses and the narrator should not be omniscient. Of course, being omniscient is totally the writer's decision, but it eliminates some of the being in the moment sense because if you're in the moment, you shouldn't be aware of everything.

The drawback of To Aru being told by an omniscient narrator in a present tense style forces the reader to constantly, albeit usually unconsciously for most readers, switch senses of being in the moment and being an observer that's listening to someone reiterate the surroundings. To help ease this sequence, in my edits, I have tried to get rid of words that have given the narrator the sense of being omniscience.

*Doubts anyone even bothered to read this*

[SilverPhyX]

@ Snorca

I did read through your comment.

I don't particularly have anything more to say about the subject, but I think I might go through the Prologue + Chapter 1 of Volume 7 and edit is to be primarily in the past tense, and the compare it to the current version, which is mostly in present tense. (In my Word Document.)

It might be good to have samples up so people can actually read what the text would be like if past tense were used over present tense.

Of course, that won't happen until...probably Saturday evening, as I have a pileup of end-of-semester projects/finals studying to take care of on Friday.

Incidentally, is there any way to upload Word Documents onto the forum? I guess I can just use MediaFire links or something, or if it really comes down to it, post both versions in spoilers.