C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

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Darklor
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by Darklor »

Ah btw for how long are such licenses normally sold?
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by joay_b »

Normally, the original copyright holders have their entire lifetimes plus 50-99 years after their deaths to profit from their works. I think its up to them how are they going to "license" them and what are the contract terms for the "licensor" and "licensee" ...
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by Darklor »

Ah, in Japan do the authors sell the licenses direct to possible foreign license holders and not the publishers?
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by kache »

ShadowZeroHeart wrote:*A-hem* sorry, but B-T does not host these copies, should people do get their paws on copies that for some reason are VERY SIMILAR to B-T's old translations and all, it is not our fault.

As for B-T members feeling sad over the abrupt end to our projects, consider it that they have now gone to the next level, and that we helped them achieve it. Be proud, rather than sad, because it is not the end, instead, we will soon find them in the bookstores around the world!!
Don't be so optimistic. I highly doubt they will arrive in Italy... :(
BTW, I'm ordering the two novels which are available at the moment. I hope they will translate the remaining 8 fast, because I still have to read from the 6th novel inward.
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by Cosmic Eagle »

Kinny Riddle wrote:Did not expect them to swoop Bungaku Shoujo so soon. I just hope they are committed into actually releasing them, rather than hoard it up in the refrigerator and allowing it to rot into oblivion.

Anyway, we must seriously consider:

1. Blocking out certain sections/threads except to admin/mod and translators/editors, like Nemo's excellent ratings thread, to avoid too much unwanted attention.

2. Starting a blog for all things LN related, can be a collective effort, where all senior translators, editors can contribute, either that or watch this place die a slow death like ToriyamaWorld as I mentioned a few pages back as licensors slowly pick our work bit by bit, until there is nothing left. That's the only way to keep this forum and B-T as a whole relevant to people interested in LN.

Touch wood, I would like to complete my translation of Toradora before the inevitable happens. :roll:
There is another way though....if you all do all those obscure stuff and god knows there are plenty of gems in there, that is unlikely to be licensed for a long, long time, then it should not be a problem.

My biggest fear actually is the Japanese side themselves cracking down.
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by Mystes »

I just remembered that i have always wondered if the side-storuies will be translated.
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by rpapo »

Cosmic Eagle wrote:My biggest fear actually is the Japanese side themselves cracking down.
Well, there are really only two ways they can entirely block us: make some sort of trade deal requiring the USA and every other country to punish people for translating Japanese materials without a license from the publisher, or entirely prohibit the export of those materials. I don't think either possibility is very likely.

The fact that you cannot get Amazon-Japan to ship a local DVD to the USA is related to a region encodings, which has as much to do with the varying television standards as it has to do with protections against competition. Books are too low-tech for that, fortunately. We don't have to wear decryption goggles :roll:
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by Cosmic Eagle »

rpapo wrote: Well, there are really only two ways they can entirely block us: make some sort of trade deal requiring the USA and every other country to punish people for translating Japanese materials without a license from the publisher, or entirely prohibit the export of those materials. I don't think either possibility is very likely.

The fact that you cannot get Amazon-Japan to ship a local DVD to the USA is related to a region encodings, which has as much to do with the varying television standards as it has to do with protections against competition. Books are too low-tech for that, fortunately. We don't have to wear decryption goggles :roll:
That's why its low chance but technically, they still hold the true original copyrights....if they make loud noises in some international court then things may get rough...
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by rpapo »

Cosmic Eagle wrote:That's why its low chance but technically, they still hold the true original copyrights....if they make loud noises in some international court then things may get rough...
The problem is money. Are the publishers willing to spend enough to take it that far? And even after that, a court edict or international law only has teeth if somebody is willing to pay for the enforcement.

In the end we come down to this: while it is true they have the original copyright in Japanese, if nobody wants the right to publish something in English badly enough to pony up the money, then our translating something . . . for free! . . . has absolutely no effect on their bottom line. If we happen to buy some copies in the original language for reference, so much the better for them. But, and this is the big "but", we absolutely must stand aside if the license does get granted for something. We don't want to get in the way of the copyright owners earning what they worked for.
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by Doraneko »

rpapo wrote:
Cosmic Eagle wrote:That's why its low chance but technically, they still hold the true original copyrights....if they make loud noises in some international court then things may get rough...
The problem is money. Are the publishers willing to spend enough to take it that far? And even after that, a court edict or international law only has teeth if somebody is willing to pay for the enforcement.

In the end we come down to this: while it is true they have the original copyright in Japanese, if nobody wants the right to publish something in English badly enough to pony up the money, then our translating something . . . for free! . . . has absolutely no effect on their bottom line. If we happen to buy some copies in the original language for reference, so much the better for them. But, and this is the big "but", we absolutely must stand aside if the license does get granted for something. We don't want to get in the way of the copyright owners earning what they worked for.
The Kadokawa Group, which controls the major light novel labels including Dengeki, Fujimi, Sneaker and Famitsu, practically holds almost 80% share of the entire light novel market. If they want they can easily designate the English rights to its US branch and then send us a C&D requiring all current and future titles from the above labels to be removed from this site.

This has happened before to Animesuki, which received a C&D from Media Factory delivered from Japan and has since then refrained from listing any MF work (so yea the US branch part in my previous scenario is redundant if no lawsuit is intended). The difference is that the market size of Media Factory in the anime sector is totally incomparable with the influence of Kadokawa in the light novel sector, explaining why AS managed to come out almost unscratched. In contrast Kadokawa is the copyright mammoth in the light novel industry.

More fun would ensure if MF cooperated with Kadokawa and sent us a C&D to ban both Kadokawa and MF light novel titles. By that time B-T would have nothing left except these forums. :lol:

On one hand, their chance of them bringing the whole thing to the court is low. On the other hand, their cost of sending us a C&D is also far from high. It has been the practice of B-T to be complying to legal requests and I don't see how it would change in the future. In that sense, they can easily put an end to our activities at a whim. We are literally at their mercy.
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by rpapo »

Doraneko wrote:On one hand, their chance of them bringing the whole thing to the court is low. On the other hand, their cost of sending us a C&D is also far from high. It has been the practice of B-T to be complying to legal requests and I don't see how it would change in the future. In that sense, they can easily put an end to our activities at a whim. We are literally at their mercy.
Quite true. The only other angle I can think of, though, is the "posession is nine-tenths of the law" factor. Failure to defend your rights is nearly the same as ceding your rights, from the point of view of the court.

At least, that is my understanding of things. I am not a lawyer, nor care to be one.
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by Doraneko »

rpapo wrote:The only other angle I can think of, though, is the "posession is nine-tenths of the law" factor. Failure to defend your rights is nearly the same as ceding your rights, from the point of view of the court.
I am not too familiar with the state of affairs on the US side. But IMO if the English copyright holder, be it a local licensor or a copyright managing branch (as illustrated in my previous example), takes legal action such as sending C&Ds within a reasonable time after they have acquired the rights, the claim that they have not taken reasonable steps to defend their rights will not stand before the court.
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by rpapo »

Doraneko wrote:
rpapo wrote:The only other angle I can think of, though, is the "posession is nine-tenths of the law" factor. Failure to defend your rights is nearly the same as ceding your rights, from the point of view of the court.
I am not too familiar with the state of affairs on the US side. But IMO if the English copyright holder, be it a local licensor or a copyright managing branch (as illustrated in my previous example), takes legal action such as sending C&Ds within a reasonable time after they have acquired the rights, the claim that they have not taken reasonable steps to defend their rights will not stand before the court.
No question there. I was referring to the rights of somebody who has supposedly held them for years, but done nothing about them. That would be the situation with the Kadokawa Group, if indeed their USA branch has held the copyrights all this time. Technically, I suppose they have. Practically, they don't seem to have done much about it.

Not that it matters. We, as a group, or more particularly The Big Boss, isn't going to try to fight them anyway. We're not in the business of competing against them, but simply providing the materials in English as long as they don't have plans of doing so themselves. For that matter, we're not "in business" at all!
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

Post by Doraneko »

rpapo wrote:No question there. I was referring to the rights of somebody who has supposedly held them for years, but done nothing about them. That would be the situation with the Kadokawa Group, if indeed their USA branch has held the copyrights all this time. Technically, I suppose they have. Practically, they don't seem to have done much about it.
By common sense I would expect Kadokawa to have not yet designated the English rights of its gigantic light novel line-up to its US branch. Any action of doing so almost guarantees a lawsuit immediately following it, or at the very least, a bulk C&D against us as a greeting/warning. There is no point to arrange paperworks and incur legal costs to designate rights just for the purpose of diminishing their rights in the US through lack of action. Heads will roll in the legal department if there is any innocent mistake in this regard. :lol:

My point was that Kadokawa can transfer the English rights to its branch in a day or two, promptly send us a bulk C&D through its branch, and possibly start a lawsuit afterwards. They have full control and legal standing, so they can do this any time they wish.
Not that it matters. We, as a group, or more particularly The Big Boss, isn't going to try to fight them anyway. We're not in the business of competing against them, but simply providing the materials in English as long as they don't have plans of doing so themselves. For that matter, we're not "in business" at all!
Indeed. That is why the copyright holders have let us survived till today. We at least contributes some value to their potential business and market. However as businesses they will also not be hesitant to wipe us away from existence if we end up becoming a hindrance (from their perspective) to their overseas ventures.
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Re: C&D letter from Hachette Book Group

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Doraneko wrote:Indeed. That is why the copyright holders have let us survive till today. We at least contribute some value to their potential business and market. However as businesses they would also not be hesitant to wipe us away from existence if we ended up becoming a hindrance (from their perspective) to their overseas ventures.
Which all comes around to the money. Do they seriously think they would be able to make money in publishing those books in English? Enough to take the risk of investing in professional translations and printing? Our existence does several things at once: we provide publicity for the works, and we provide an indication as to how much interest there is for the works, but at the same time we (probably) reduce the demand somewhat, at least amongst the more fanatical readers, by providing something to read. Eliminating our site would increase the demand on the part of the diehards, but not immediately. It would take a few years for the effect of our site to fade fully. But then the publishers would be presented with a real gamble: just which books to publish? They wouldn't really know for sure anymore. Just because a book was popular in Japan doesn't necessarily mean that it will be popular with the English-speaking otaku, which have slightly differerent preferences.
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