Baka-Tsuki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-06-12T18:01:07Z

74.237.113.192: English Grammar Corrections

== Original text ==

=== Page 161 ===

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

=== Page 162 ===

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。

部室で長門が読書する姿は今やデフオォルトの風景であり、もはやこの部屋と切り離せない固定の置物のようでもあった。

だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

「お前も俺に涼宮のことで何か話はあるんじゃないのか？」

この場には三人しかいない。ハルヒは今週が掃除当番だし朝比奈さんはまた来ていない。

「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

古泉は、昨日図書館から借り出した本に顔を埋めている長門を一瞥する。すべてを知ってるみたいな訳知り口調が気に入らない。

=== Page 163 ===

「場所を変えましょう。涼宮さん出くわすとマズイですから」

古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

「どこまでご存じですか？」

「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」

「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

「まずお前の正体から聞こうか」

宇宙人と未来人には心当たりがあるから、

「実は超能力者でして、などと言うんじゃないだろうな」

「先に言わないで欲しいな」

== Translation notes ==

=== The Blue Bird of Happiness ===

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet, playwright and Nobel laureate Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature.

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal.

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== Haruhi's downer ===

Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the original text: ハルヒのダウナー (''Haruhi no DAUNAA'')

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven" ===

''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?" ===

This is my attempt to render the second clause of that very long sentence into English: 地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか (''chikyuuondanka no sei de nekki ni aterareterun ja nee no ka'')

Unfortunately, I don't think it sounds very good. If someone can come up with a better way to express it, I'd be very happy.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

The more i read that sentence the more im confused.

what is it trying to imply? That similarities of globalwarming to the situation is that globalwarming is NOT the reason for the heat,implying that its just simply Bollocks, B.S, rubbish, etc, not true.
or that its a sarcastic poke at the information people saying that the raising heat isn't responsible due to global warming, Therefore implying that Haruhi non-human-ness is an unspoken obvious?

Or im i just getting more confused? ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:50, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh man i get it! sorry this been really bugging me. :/

Kyon trying to imply that it's not like a controvesion debate, such as global warming.
so in that context you could say:

"It wasn't like i was stating the global warming/hot weather controversive, was I?"

I think that sounds much better!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:27, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

==Translation Issues==

===General===

EDIT: And meanwhile Kinny fixes some of the issues. Oh well, the fact that they got fixed is what matters I guess, it's just that it means I wasted my time doing this.

Just pointing out some things that definitely aren't mere editing issues. There are many more spots where I question the way you've put it in English, but atleast those more or less agree with what was said in the novel.

Correction sentences will be fairly literal. They're mostly meant to give you an idea about what you got wrong.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

'''Hello Cruzz'''

nice to see you helping out, dispite your decline of joining this project (^o^)/

on the other hand you seem to ruffle some of our translators feathers.

^^;

While we have to generally agree with Kinny's points as he has mentioned in the Animesuki novel thread, please continue to help us.

Perhaps you can inform us in the talk page in the future, or even on the [format_guide|Unified Format Guideline] discussion page?

Unfortunately as Thelastguardian mentioned, we must inform him or all major translation contributions before hand.

thanks!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:14, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Shrug, I just don't have any interest in promising to do anything, doesn't mean I won't try to meddle with the project if I find the time. As for ruffling feathers, that's more or less a necessary evil.

I'm not planning on directly editing any of the translations, I'll just post my comments on the respective talk pages. Do I need to get a special permission to do that?

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:43, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My feathers don't ruffle easily, and they're not ruffled now. As for your corrections, I agree with some of them. I don't claim perfection. However, I question the correctness of all your corrections -- specifically, the global warming remark, which I believe you've gotten wrong.

Kinny's edits and your remarks have also moved a couple of the sentences away from what is actually said. Specifically, the passage that now reads (after your correction and Kinny's edit):

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya wasn't ordinary. Has global warming heated their brains so much that they short-circuited?'''

In the book, clearly says that Suzumiya "isn't ''human''", 人間じゃない -- not that she "wasn't ordinary".
It is my opinion that the passage out to read:

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya isn't human.'''

The whole global warming sentence is a mess, but I can't really see any good reason not to let Kinny's version stand, since it more or less projects the same message as the other versions -- that is, that Kyon questions the sanity of all three other ordinary members of the SOS-dan. So let's leave it at that.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Kinny's version has nothing to do with mine, he actually posted his while I was writing this stuff I think. You might also notice that my version also said she wasn't human. As far as I can see there's not much need for interpretation in these sentences.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 13:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

===Haruhi, whom I'd parted with ===
ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

×Haruhi, whom I'd parted with in front of the station, two days previously, twisted her face into a sour look, pouting. Lately, she'd been making this face a lot, and I was still waiting for it to turn back.

○Haruhi twisted her face into a sour look just like the one she had when I parted with her in front of the station two days ago. I had been thinking that lately she had been making more preferrable faces, but now she was back to the way she had been before that again.

===Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl....===
ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

×Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl (I used to be suitable), then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

○Haruhi started glaring at [a point at] an upward angle , I faced forwards, then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

===Thus, as I have described, ...===
だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

×Thus, as I have described, I arrive one step ahead of Koizumi Itsuki.

○So I said this to Koizumi Itsuki who had arrived in the room a step ahead of me.

===Oh, you too? You're the second ...===
「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

×"Oh, you too? You're the second person to approach me about that, you know."

○"Oh, seeing as you're saying "you too", I guess you were already approached by the other two."

===Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria,...===
古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

×Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria, where we found a table outside. Buying coffee at the vending machine midway, we took it with us to the round table, just two guys sitting together, nothing unusual.

○The place Koizumi took me was one of the outdoor tables of the cafeteria. He bought a coffee from a vending machine on the way there and handed it to me. Two guys sitting at a round table like this is what it is, but it can't be helped in this situation.

===Suzumiya is no ordinary person,...===
「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」
「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

×"Suzumiya is no ordinary person, is that about it?"

×"If you want to put it that simply. That's exactly right."

○"Enough to know that Suzumiya is no ordinary person."

○"In that case, explaining will be easy. That's exactly right you see."

===Was this some kind of joke?...===
それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

×Was this some kind of joke? So far, all three of the other three members of the SOS Brigade had suggested that Suzumiya wasn't human. It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?

○"Is this some kind of joke? All three of the SOS-dan members suggesting stuff like Suzumiya not being human, aren't you just suffering from a fever caused by global warming?" /(aren't you just feverish because of global warming)

===I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said.===
「先に言わないで欲しいな」

×"I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said."

○"I'd appreciate it if you didn't say it before me"

=== Haruhi's Self-Introduction ===
Specifically: ''If there are any aliens, time travellers, out-of-worlders and espers, come look for me!'' is different from thelastguardian's version in Chapter 1: ''If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all.''

As this phrase is such an important one, we should probably agree upon a translation that fits with how we describe Yuki, Mikuru and Itsuki in the other chapters too: Alien, Time Traveller and Esper? Should out-of-worlders be put as "Dimension Hoppers" or "Sliders" while we're at it?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:59, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...well in the official SHnY wiki article they state "sliders" as well ,as it seems to be a generally accepted word for dimensional traveller.

Come to think of it ,we got aliens, espers and time travellers....does this mean theres gonna be a slider too? (O_o)?

But yeah, i think in the general terms, yuki should be referred to as the "alien", Mikuru as the Time Traveller, as for Itsuki....mmm...tricky, i would personally go for esper as its been mentioned here, and it's a easy route for continuality.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:29, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, then I guess we'll use "Sliders" and go change the above phrase in both Ch 1 and 5. I'll do it in a bit if someone doesn't do it first.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 20:46, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

=== The ecchi moment with Nagato Yuki ===
I know this isn't crucial to the story, but it's a fun moment, and I'd really appreciate it if a translator could clarify exactly what happened with Kyon getting into those compromising situations with Nagato Yuki. I'm finding it hard to visualize.
# One moment he's trying to help her up.
# The next, he's trying to carry her.
# The next, it looks as he were laying her down. ''(Ok, I do understand this transition.)''
# The next, she's resting on his chest, and he's lost in thought, so he doesn't notice.
#* So is he lying down with her on his chest right now? Do the books describe this very well?

Can't wait to see this animated, if they do.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:20, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

The way I see it: She's on the floor and takes Kyon's hand to pull herself up. Kyon reaches down to further assist her, shifting to Carry position. Taniguchi interruption - from his POV, it SEEMS that Kyon is laying her down, when he's not (he's just frozen in position). Kyon resumes picking up Yuki and then gets lost in thought. Yuki regenerates while resting on his chest - presumably also in his arms or perhaps just leaning on him while standing herself.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:23, 6 May 2006 (PDT)

That makes a ''lot'' more sense. ''(I didn't take into account that "resting on" can also mean "leaning on")'' You now have my undying gratitude. Well, it won't die for the next few days, at least...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:01, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

== "Consortium" -> ? ==

How about "Brotherhood?" instead? sounds like a smaller group, and not like some multinational government-like group.

Edit: or even "fellowship"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, they use a weird term... 機関 literally means "organ, mechanism, facility, engine". I don't know about that... "Consortium" seems to miss the tone of the word. Another translation used by the fansubbers of the anime is "Organization", which is better, but still off.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and suggest a different term. One that gibes well with the idea that Tanigawa-sensei is a science fiction fan. I think the term he's trying to use is one that was borrowed from Cordwainer Smith, and that the word ought to be: "Instrumentality".

I'm not going to make an edit of the entire chapter, because this obviously needs to be discussed beforehand -- but that's my opinion.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:28, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

"noted, guess we should get this out the way as soon as possible but with some discussion before hand.

after having it clarified, i propose another term for it.

"Agent"

i.e. I'am part of the "Agent". sounds quite good, if i say so myself.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:45, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Well, okay, I guess that works -- but then it should be "The Agency", as "Agent" implies an individual.

One problem I see with this is that "The Agency" is a universally recognised euphemism for the C.I.A.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh...really?

i guess thats a US thing, we have no such thing in the backwards Brit isles.

how about The "System"? ..."Implement" or the "Operation"?

mmm...kinda like the "Operation" ...... you can say it in oublic and people would think your either a doctor or some sort of.....doctor. lol

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My vote is still for "The Instrumentality". Partly because it fits the mechanistic tone of teh original word 機関, and partly because it's such an obvious reference to a classic science fiction master, Cordwainer Smith. I'm convinced that Tanigawa-sensei is making a deliberate literary allusion, just as he has done elsewhere in the book (with "The Fall of Hyperion" and with "The Blue Bird of Happiness").

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:18, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i have no idea why i don't like that word, it just...doesn't sound right.

personally we could of called it the "council" or even the "carbinet", but they have the ring of a government sponsored large group.

Oh well, i just went round in circles just because I don't like that word, so i'll throw my last alternative and leave it at that for others to decide,

"The Encephalon" which means brain, the centre of knowledge, part of the whole. sorta mechanical thing as well.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:40, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Okay, now, I personally like "The Encephalon". It's cool in a geeky sort of way, and it's the sort of thing that I'd name my own secret society, if I had one. And we'd have cool black robes and scantily-attired handmaidens and all that jazz, and a plan to rule the world. And a secret handshake, and decoder rings. And they would rue the day they took us lightly! Muahahahahahhhh!

But... it just doesn't sound right for Koizumi's group's name. Sorry.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:52, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

ok...so we are back to square one.

dammn this..this..suxs..... :/

ok.. how about the "Ministry" which means One that serves as a means; an instrumentality.

or "Puissance" which means power, might.

"Ministry" actually sounds alright, it gives abit of a religous group, but that's ok, as essential thats what they are in regard to Haruhi.

But the word "Puissance" does give it the same shadowry image, on the same level as Illuminati.

I just realise why i don't like your word, its too long, it has whatch-call-it, five thingys. i.e.
in, stru, ment, ta, li, ty. five phonic bits.

while i preferr one that is around four or less. i.e. Mi, ni, stry or pu, i, sance.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:46, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Six syllables, yes. I know, but on the other hand, there is a certain rolling sonorousness to it.

In-stru-men-TA-li-ty.

But I'm serious about my conviction that Tanigawa-sensei is making a literary allusion. I am certain that he's referencing Cordwainer Smith's classic SF stories. It would be perfectly in keeping with the obvious fact that the series, at least to begin with, is an elaborate SF fanfic.

If I'm voted down on this, so it goes -- but I'm still convinced this is how it is.

Brainstorming some possible alternatives: "The Complex", "The Structure"... meh.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 18:05, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, out of the possibilities listed above "Instrumentality" does sound best I think, given we need a mechanical feel to it that also serves as a reference. Make sure to mark this word with a "translator's note/reference" just to point out the connection to Cordwainer Smith's work. Besides, for the odd case where such a long word might sound awkward, we can always refer to it as "Itsuki's group/affiliation" (inserting whatever pronoun is appropriate) though I can't immediately think of such odd cases.

Btw, am I correct in interpreting that, while there are only ~10 Espers in Itsuki's group, that there's likely a bunch of ordinary people too who deal with the Administration and stuff?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:21, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

gaaah. psieye. grrr.

well he says 10 members, that was my impression.

But if that does not include other personals, part of the group who has no powers, then calling it the organisation,"council" even the "agency" or the one original would be more accurate.

I hate waiting for votes, three voters don't count.
need more people.

:p

[[User:Onizuka-gto|GTO-Kun]] 18:32, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

There's nothing weird about 機関. It is a very common word used for decision making bodies and organizations that were created for the fulfilment of specific goals. The suggestions here are the ones that are weird if you ask me. They're also fairly creative, but the original word itself doesn't really imply these sort of things.

I'd just go with a simple and widely accepted translation. "Organization", "Agency", "Council" (in rough order of preference).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 21:28, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

sheesh. i've done so many backpeddling i might as well just run backwards or something, but anyway, after giving it a run about in my head. "Council" doesn't have the same ring, and neither does "Agency". Which gets me back to square one.
dammit.

But Cruzz has a point, it's really just a simple word, but we all trying to find some deeper meaning into it.
After all this, i'm beginning to think its better we just left it as it is.
But i still don't like "instrumentality". heh.

But i can go with "complex" or even "Manifold" or..ok. i'll stop. just the first one. really.
no really. unless you like the other one?
arrgh.
Someone vote before i change my mind.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 22:14, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

=== 27th April, Deadline for this Debate to be concluded ===

ok. i hate to say this, but i'm gonna give this one more day, that is until it's the 27th, i don't want this to drag on, so thats the deadline for any other suggestion or aye/nay votes.
After that we count the votes, and leave it at that.
Which means though I loath to say it, if no one else put another suggestion or nay votes.
FoN's "instrumentality" gets the spot. dammit.
someone, anyone. help. \(;_;)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:12, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Let me make it easier for you: Although I favour "The Intrumentality", I think "The Organization" ought to be our compromise. I have a feeling it is the option that best suits everybody's idea, and which stays closest to the original.

If anyone ever has the chance to find out from Tanigawa-sensei, directly or indirectly, whether the name was (as I think) intended as a nod to Cordwainer Smith's "Instrumentality of Man", I want to know. But for now, I think "The Organization" is the phrase to stick with.

(I kind of liked "The Encephalon", though -- it would look great on a business card: "F. On, Supreme Inquisitor, The Encephalon". Groovy...)

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 01:24, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, then how about this: use "The Organisation" as our offical term throughout the text, but leave a footnote/reference note pointing to the "Translator's Notes/References" section (wherever they'll be) where we mention our thought of "Instrumentality" and the rest of FON's posts above. It's indeed nice to make note of references but the English equivalent seems slightly unwieldly to be used in 'everyday field talk'.

Heck, it may even be that the group's name is something different and more elegant, but because it's a nuisance to say it in full each time the field agents simply refer it as The Organisation - much easier for other people (read: Kyon) to understand too.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:31, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

It's really quite confusing if you have to use "The Organization" in lines like "So this organization of yours, 'the Organization', what does it do?" This creates unnecessary repetition, which was why I used 'Consortium'. Because in the original text, "organization" is "souseki" while "kikan" is Koizumi's group.

As for the other alternatives, while "Instrumentality" sounds long and bulky, with a whopping six syllables, it's certainly easier for the reader to understand what it is than "Encephalon". Because when I read "kikan", I knew what it meant right away.

--[[User:Kinny Riddle|Kinny Riddle]] 22:26, 26 April 2006 (HKT)

I can go with organisation, but i can see your point Kinny, but in that case you mentioned all you have to do is change the words, i.e.

"So this '''group''' of yours, 'the Organization', what does it do?"

like so.

oh i like the footnote thing too, just link it to the format style guideline on the correct terms, and add a nte under it or something. saves adding the same footnote to each individual chapters.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:58, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

"Kikan Kakei Keizai Kenkyu" = The Institute for Research on Household Economics... So "Institute" ?? my 2 cents...

*
At the moment, its on "organisation"

But "Institutes" not that bad.....

it does sound better then "organisation"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:51, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Nah, I still prefer Organisation to Institute - the latter doesn't quite sound right and I get the impression it's not so Global from such a word. I can go with it, but my vote's still on Organisation.

And of course, the above line can be changed to something like "''So this group/association of yours, The Organization, what does it do?''"

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:17, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Hi, newcomer here giving my two cents:

How about the word '''"order"'''? '''"Order"''' carries a connotation of covertness and "cultishness", which might be what we're looking for here. It implies that the group exists for a special purpose -- that they're mere instruments or disciples serving a greater cause.

The thing I don't like about '''"order"''' though is that it also carries religious undertones.

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 14:55, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, "order" for me, doesn't seem to fit.

it seems to me that "organisation" is the best fit,
Sounless three other users support an alternative we will be back to deadlock, but hopefully it will not come to that and we will finally have a solution to this.
Just pasted 2300hours UTC gentlemen. Times ticking, i'll be back to check on this before it's midnight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:13, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Guess it's decided then.

"Organisation" it is.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:08, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

== Syntax Error in Sql Statement XD ==

i think there should be a _ between continuity code as it's an syntax error X_X
WHERE code=information should be WHERE code='information'
um.. that should be it XD

SELECT continuity_code
FROM databank
WHERE code='information'
ORDER BY aggressive_combat_data
HAVING END_MODE

---------

It seems it has been changed again... however the quotes around information weren't added and the condition PERSONAL NAME Asakura Ryouko was added.

SELECT continuity, code
FROM databank
WHERE code=information
ORDER BY aggressive_combat_data
HAVING end_mode
PERSONAL NAME Asakura Ryouko

In any case, in SQL syntax there is no such thing as a PERSONAL NAME modifier (and in any case, Asakura Ryouko would have to be enclosed between quotes). The usage of HAVING is incorrect as well, since the HAVING must be used in conjuction with a GROUP BY statement (which is not present) and it must be followed by a condition (normally an arithmetic one)...however it is such a trivial issue that it might not be worth correcting, but what do other people think about it? Was it like that in the original version? If that's the case, it might not be worth correcting
-[[User:Proto|Proto]] 1:14, 1 May 2006 (Central)

Odd, I'm looking at the original text, and it seems to be more like this:

SELECT serial_code
FROM database
WHERE code='data'
ORDER BY aggressive_combat_data
HAVING terminate_mode

"Target name Asakura Ryoko, hostility confirmed[...]"

I'm going to make the change, but if it seems wrong, feel free to change it back.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 12:27, 8 May 2006 (EST)

I'd just like to comment that HAVING is used incorrectly, however not as was previously stated. HAVING does not need to be used in conjunction with a GROUP BY statement. HAVING is only used when doing boolean compairisons on an aggregate function returned by the select. In most cases this means that the GROUP BY statement is there because if you select anything aside from the aggregate function, the GROUP BY is required to make it work. If you were only selecting the aggregate function however, then there would be no GROUP BY, and the HAVING caluse would be valid (Albeit stupid since you're only getting 1 number returned by the select, and running a HAVING boolean check on 1 number would be useless).

Anyways, the HAVING clause is incorrect because the only time you use HAVING is when running a boolean compairison on an aggregate function. It's a WHERE statement for aggregate functions.

Example
SELECT X, sum(y) as total
FROM table
WHERE x = 2
GROUP BY X
HAVING total > 5

That's an appropriate use of HAVING because it's running a compairison on the aggregate function sum(y). Only in situations such as this one is HAVING a valid statement. In any other situations, the comparision would be contained in the WHERE portion of the statement.

-Seigfreid

== English Grammar Corrections ==

'''"As you well know, this resulted in Suzumiya-san having Asahina Mikuru, Nagato Yuki and even me joining her club."'''

-This should be "and even I" because the pronoun is used before an action verb ("joining") with "having" as a linking verb indicating that the pronoun used should be in the nominative case.

'''"Man! For someone who's just turned 15, having to face a turning point in his life is just a bit too early!"'''
-who's should be who

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter4

2006-06-12T17:28:41Z

74.237.113.192: English Grammar Changes

The chapters are getting shorter, aren't they.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 01:41, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

== "No comment" vs. "Classified Information" (velocity7) ==
Kinny Riddle's Lines: 
"Just how old are you really?" 
"No comment~" 

Original Japanese Text: 
「あなたの本当の歳を教えて下さい」 
「禁則事項です」 

Properly Translated Text: 
"Please tell me your real age." 
"It's classified information~" 

For that matter, anytime Mikuru says "No comment", it's actually "classified information". I kind of picked up that this was not exactly the right line, after seeing episode 5 of the anime, so I did an OCR on the raw scans I have. 

== "I can't take it anymore!" (velocity7) ==
The actual line is 「やれやれ」, which is more like the "Oh boy" sort of response. If there was anything like this before, again, it needs to be fixed.

-'''Edit'''
I would interpret 「やれやれ」 to be one of the following:
* "Oh great..."
* "My my..."
* "Oh, here we go..."
* "Oh man..."
* "Oh bother..."
* "Oh bugger..." (British colloquial)

Basically, I think 「やれやれ」tends to be used like a verbal sigh.

"Oh boy...", like you suggested above, fits in fine as well.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:58, 9 May 2006 (GMT)

== "Sorry, I'm on my way!" (velocity7) ==
The actual line is 「すまん、今起きたとこなんだ」, which is "Sorry, I just woke up just now!"

== Miscellaneous (velocity7) ==
There were some undocumented changes I also made, which are mostly stylistic and from what I could tell fit the novel text ordering a lot. The Japanese novel, that is.

--[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 17:49, 5 May 2006 (EDT)

== English Grammar Changes ==

'''In the end, me and Nagato were grouped together, while the other three were in another group.'''

-this should be "Nagato and I" because the pronoun is before the verb, indicating it should be in the nominative case.

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-06-12T15:49:26Z

74.237.113.192: /* Grammar Corrections */

== Translator's Notes ==

=== Cookie tin ===

They drew their new seat positions from a ハトサブレの缶 (Hatosabure no KAN).

Kamakura is famous for a biscuit called Hatosabure (鳩サブレー), a biscuit shaped like a pigeon. Sold next to Kamakura station and a very popular omiyage (souvenir) among the Japanese.

Toshimaya is a shop that sells many kinds of sweets. "Hato" (鳩) means dove in English and "sabure" (サブレ) is "sable" in French. Children loved the many white pigeons in Kamakura, so the owner of Toshimaya named the cookie "hatosabure."

Info from:
[http://wikitravel.org/en/Kamakura WikiTravel]
[http://ryokotsuzuki.tripod.com/ryoko.html Ryoko's Homepage]
[http://images.google.com.ph/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=hatosabure&sa=N&tab=wi Images]

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 03:44, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

== Open Translation Issues ==

=== ...May arrives... ===
(This topic was originally "In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly." renamed to be easier to find since the wording has changed --[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT))

This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yeah, I'll bug a translator and get this clarified. :) --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:00, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

'''[[User:Freak Of Nature|I (FON)]] was the translator that was bugged, and this is copied from my [[User_talk:Freak_Of_Nature|talk page]]:'''

:Since you apparently have access to the original Japanese novel here's a question. In Chapter 1 Kyon says:
:''In the middle of all this mess there was always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrived quietly.''
:In this passage, Kyon implies that all disturbances at the school are related to Haruhi's antics. In contrast, May is said to arrive without significant events occuring. Does the original Japanese contain this conflict? -- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:59, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Glad to assist. The original passage (end of page 25 in the novel) is

::そんなこんなをしながら～～もっとも、そんなこんなをしていたのはハルヒだけだったが～～五月がやってくる。

::'''sonnakonna o shinagara -- mottomo, sonnakonna shite ita no wa Haruhi dakedatta ga -- gogatsu yatte kuru.'''

::Or in other words:

::"As this and that was happening -- although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrived."

::That's the literal translation, and I think the translation you cited above is perhaps a bit too free.

::--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

After some thought, I've reached the conclusion that the sentence should be:

"As this and that is happening -- although it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrives."

This preserves Kyon's weird tenses throughout the sentence -- notice how the primary sentence is in present tense, whereas the secondary clause is in past tense. This is really most exasperating for a translator.

I've made the change in the text to this sentence.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:39, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

That may be an accurate translation, but it still seems a bit awkwardly worded in English. Maybe something like:

"With all this stuff going on -- even though Haruhi was the cause of it... but, anyway -- May arrives."

-- kumarei 10:15, 07 May 2006

:Hmm, sounds good - remove the comma after "but" maybe? Well, I'll let you edit the text so you can take credit for it. If others don't like it, it can be changed back afterwards.

:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:57, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

For some reason, both the "though" and "anyway" -- and their equivalents in the other sentence permutations -- don't seem to add any meaning, building up expectations that get left hanging.

'''Here's where "though" makes sense to me:'''
:''With all these deliveries needing to be made, though it was Mr. Incompetent driving, we all returned safely.''

There's no such surprise or expectation with May arriving despite Haruhi's being behind this and that. I'll break it down:
*deliveries needed '''plus''' Mr. Incompetent driving '''equals''' unlikely to return safely.
*this and that happening '''plus''' Haruhi being the cause '''equals''' May unlikely to arrive???

'''Here's where "anyway" makes sense to me:'''
:''With the sounds of birds singing -- hmmm, I could really go for a pizza about now... anyway -- May arrives.''

Again, the breakdown:
*birds singing '''plus''' irrelevant aside about pizza, '''anyway''', May arrives.
*this and that happening '''plus''' irrelevant ''(???)'' aside about Haruhi, '''anyway''', May arrives.
Haruhi has everything to do with "this and that" happening, so it's not really irrelevant. "Anyway" can also be used to gloss over embarrassing points -- that usage would fit, except Kyon really isn't one to gloss over anything.

'''The sentence structure really makes the most sense to me''' -- watch me build it up:
:''With the sound of birds singing, May arrives.''
and then:
:''With the sound of birds singing -- and the new birdfeeder was a big reason -- May arrives.''

Using kumarei's sentence as a base:
:''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''
or
:''With all this stuff going on -- and, by the way, Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

For yet another translation of the original sentence, which also is missing the extraneous signifiers "although" and "anyway," go
[[#As_this_and_that_was_happening_--_although_it_was_always_Haruhi_at_the_center_of_it_all_--_May_arrived.|here]].
The signifier he ''does'' use, "Well," is more along the lines of "By the way," which doesn't have problems fitting most places. Freak Of Nature ''does'' have signifiers in his literal translation, but if so, then as far as I'm concerned, the original text didn't make sense either.

My own guess, however, is that those signifiers are needed in Japanese, in order to complete the function that hyphens alone -- you know, these kinds of things -- carry in English. Therefore, they're not needed in an English translation, as adding them makes you expect an extra meaning, beyond the already implicit hyphen-aside function.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:20, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

I was debating about whether to use 'and' or 'though' in my version, and decided on 'though' since it seemed more accurate to what the original text was trying to convey. It felt to me as if 'though' gives it a bit of an accusatory twist, as in "I was very busy, though Haruhi was the cause", as opposed to "I was very busy, and Haruhi was the cause". If that's not conveyed, then I see no reason not to change it to 'and', since and does flow slightly better.

The anyway was because of the way I imagined Kyon saying the sentence. The part about Haruhi is really an aside, since the sentence is really about May getting there. The middle part is kind of a rehash, and not the point of the sentence, and in the Japanese would be ended with a hanging ''ga''. This carries a kind of assumed elipses which I didn't think could be added to the main aside, so I used the word 'anyway' to signify that he was pausing and getting back on track.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 16:06, 8 May 2006 (EST)

:Just curious, by the "accusatory twist" you're talking about, do you mean the same usage as in this? :
::''All the plates broke -- though it was HER fault!''
:In other words, anticipating an accusation, and pre-deflecting it. Though through usage, that presupposition no longer seems needed? ''(Even though that usage bugs me, I accept that it exists.)''
:Honestly, though, in overview, I'm realizing just how much is left to sense of "feel." The only way to correctly interpret the sentence needs information beyond the sentence, and possibly beyond the text itself.
:*Is Kyon trying to blatantly interject Haruhi's causing it, or is he feeling obligated to mention it, and gloss over it as fast as possible?
:*Does Kyon feel obliged to distance himself from Haruhi's actions? Does he feel he would be held responsible otherwise?
:*Does Kyon feel offended by Haruhi's actions? Or somewhat amused?
:Depending on the answers, I'd choose different means of expression. And this is just one sentence...

:Similar to the:
:*'''I''' did the dishes.
:*I '''did''' the dishes.
:*I did the '''dishes'''.
:subtlety -- one sentence, many ways to interpret.

:Or just for fun:
:*-- though '''Haruhi''' was always the cause... anyway --
:*-- though Haruhi '''was''' always the cause... anyway --
:*-- though Haruhi was '''always''' the cause... anyway --
:*-- though Haruhi was always the '''cause'''... anyway --
:*-- ''(speak this part fast)'' though Haruhi was always the cause... '''anyway''' --
:Some of these ARE a little silly, but they do all have specific meanings. In any case, I await the day when thought transfer devices become widespread, and authors can bottle up their thoughts in thought-playback modules.

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:17, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

Nice analysis of the structure The naming game. It seems clear that the use of '''though''' in that sentence is completely illogical. If we had to use a reason as to why it is, it is because Haruhi ''would not'' be the cause for a new month to come (in terms of the storyline, we know that Kyon doesn't know that Haruhi actually possesses supernatural powers yet).

'''I probably misinterpreted The naming game's analysis so the lines above may not apply.'''

If I had to compare the literal translation and The naming game's example of using '''though''', in terms of the application of the word though, they aren't that similar. Here's why I think so (I've categorised them in to letters and what not for ease of understanding):

'''The literal translation:'''
* '''As this and that was happening = A''' '''--although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that = B''', '''however -- May arrived. = C'''

In this case, '''B''' is the cause of '''A''' but regardless of that fact, '''C''' occurs.

'''The naming game's example:'''
* '''With all these deliveries needing to be made = X''', '''though it was Mr. Incompetent driving = Y''', '''we all returned safely = Z'''

In this case, '''X''' needs to be done and is carried out by '''Y'''. However, because '''Y''' is doing it, '''Z''' is jeopardised and may not occur. Yet despite '''Y''' performing '''X''', '''Z''' occurs.

Based on this breakdown, it seems that the literal translation is logical in its original state.

Anyhow, I've analysed the Japanese sentence provided and after noting Freak of nature's translation, here's another literal translation of what it means: ''While to do such a thing though, it was just Haruhi who does such a thing, but May comes.''. Another nonsensical sentence...
With respect to the original translation, Freak of Nature's literal translation and from what I've interpreted additionally (with the aid of The naming game's analysis), here's my suggested interpretation of this sentence:

'''The original translation:'''
* In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly.

'''My suggestion:'''
* Regardless of all the randomly inexplicable events that went by, even though Haruhi was the cause of them all, the month of May arrived.

Hence, in essence, my suggested substitute for the word "anyway" would be "regardless" or something along those lines, such as "despite".

Hope that helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:26, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

:Just as a quick note, for the purposes of the "though" function in the sentence examples, I consider "carried out by" and "caused by" to be essentially the same.
:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:17, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I think it would be perfectly acceptable to use [[User:The naming game|The naming game]]'s ''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.'' I think it still carries the majority of the meaning of the sentence, and flows better than most of the other versions. I think the change that [[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] suggested might be a little too off of the original meaning.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 18:46, 8 May 2006 (EST)

I understand that my interpretation may have strayed a little far from the original source material but in my opinion, my suggestion seemed to convey the original meaning intended whilst maintaining reasonable grammar. But ah, such is the nature of interpretation.

In any case, if you feel confident that your suggestion or The naming game's suggestion is fitting, then by all means, please proceed and change the lines in the chapter. I know one thing for sure is that I have difficulty conforming to any other style of writing other than my own thus; I will not change the text unless the alteration is minor and the stylistic disparity is negligible.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:58, 9 May 2006 (GMT)

Hmm. That's a pretty high horse you're riding, '''Da~Mike'''. Hang on tight.

I think the version you proposed for Kyon's narrative, to wit:

<cite>
:''Regardless of all the randomly inexplicable events that went by, even though Haruhi was the cause of them all, the month of May arrived.''
</cite>

is needlessly complicated, and uses verbiage that seems completely discordant with Kyon's narrative style. This is not a question of "interpretation" -- you've managed to completely alter the tone of the sentence.

The Japanese original isn't ''that'' complicated. There's a main sentence which references the events (''As all this is happening''), with a subordinate clause in Kyon's characteristically variant tense (''although it was always Haruhi at center of it''), inserted into the middle of the sentence, which is then completed (''May arrives.''). There's no need for complicated words in any of it -- and the only really challenging parts are making the translated version flow well, and taking the tense variation into account. The original speaks only of "this and that" happening, not of "randomly inexplicable events". Kyon is a highschooler, not a physics major.

I move we keep the simple version that is currently in the translation:

<cite>
:''So, with all this stuff going on -- though Haruhi was always the cause... anyway -- May arrived.
</cite>

I can't "hear" Kyon saying something as needlessly elaborate as your suggestion. And yes, I feel confident of this.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 11:11, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

Well, I stand corrected [[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]. ^,^

I'm perfectly fine with the version you already suggested. It's just that I'd thought I'd try my hand at interpreting that tiny sentence and... My version ended up quite different compared to the original text, according to your argument that is.
Like I mentioned above, I find it hard to conform to any other writing style other than my own and in case if you ever wondered, I literally talk the way I type. As a result, like I've mentioned in numerous places throughout this entire site, '''''I will generally abstain from editing the main text'''''.

Well I guess that is that and what you mentioned should conclude this small discussion [[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]].

Oh and thank you for your enlightening input. I shall keep that in mind the next time I offer an interpretation for one of Kyon's phrases. ^_~

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 19:24, 9 May 2006 (GMT)

I tend to write and talk the same way, as well -- that is, with a highly complex sentence structure and with elaborate usage of obscure terms, strained metaphors and overworked similes. When I write my own copy, that is how I prefer to write (you should see some of my academic work... ''"Ach und Weh!"''). However, translating (or writing copy to order for a specific audience) places strictures on the way one can allow oneself to write, and it is terribly important to recognize and accept these strictures. Else, frustration is unavoidable.

Or to put it in a simpler way: "I get where you're coming from. But let's focus on the task."

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:09, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I hate to risk reopening this can of worms, but I thought I'd note that I've removed the "anyways" from this sentance. I don't think it was gramatical to have that kind of word included as part of a dash separated clause. It just looked unnatural. I think the real issue is that it's hard to capture rambling dialogue in prose. I'm not sure the "anyway" was that important for this sentance, but if there are other similar sections we may need to use lots of ellipses.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ===
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Good call. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:12, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Hmm, the "is are" construction is back in the text as of a recent edit. It is ugly, but I think grammatical. I'm really a bit baffled by the purpose of the whole sentance. Kyon suddenly mentions dreams and pets apropos nothing. --[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 11:14, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi. ===
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:But it's not like there weren't people who hadn't understood yet, who didn't have an eye for this kind of thing. There still were classmates who'd try to talk about something to Suzumiya Haruhi, who was always scowling and making a line with her lips as if she was in a bad mood.
</cite>

Possible change:
<cite>
:But there were still those who hadn't understood yet. There were still people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The sentence in the title suggests a meaning that appears to be absent in both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations; it implies that for some reason, people (including Kyon himself) were drawn to Haruhi and would still try to talk to her, regardless of whether they understood her or accepted her nature.

Again, the source text would be incredibly helpful if we are to clarify this. Could someone provide the source text for this particular phrase please? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:13, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

=== the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi. ===
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:At this point I must have been possessed by some sort of evil spirit, I can't think of any other reason for this. When I came back to my senses I was talking with Haruhi.
</cite>

The extra bit of meaning in Cruzz's translation is "possessed by some sort of evil spirit" -- which forms a nice parallel with the corresponding "when I came back to my senses." This small bit of wit really isn't that crucial, but I thought I'd throw this in for completeness.

Is this same parallelism there in the original?

Possible change:
<cite>
:the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I regained my sanity, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The title sentence is quite amusing if misinterpreted. You could interpret that what Kyon's saying is that by the time he realised he was going nuts, he found himself talking to Haruhi. But then again, it could be part of the original novel's humour. Both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations imply that despite Kyon regaining his sanity/senses (when he was previously unsure of), he still found himself talking to Haruhi.

It all seems fairly confusing I think...
Okay, so here are the possible meanings of the sentence:
'''Kyon thinks he's going crazy''':
* and by the time he realised that he was, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and by the time he regained his senses/sanity, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and before he could mentally establish the fact that he was talking to Haruhi, he was already talking to her.

The actual phrase used in the Japanese book would be of an enormous help (or a literal translation of the original source phrase). Could one of the translators please provide this? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:06, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

I've just rewritten this sentance and while it still flows a bit awkwardly, I think it captures some of Kyon's breathless narative style (which is captured quite impressively by his voice actor in the Anime). It could probably still be improved, for which a close translation of the original Japanse would be helpful.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream. ===
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Even now, she's eagerly waiting for that chance meeting with the paranormal, something I gave up on a long time ago. And she's certainly taking an active approach at it.
</cite>

I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach ''at'' it" to "approach ''to'' it."

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz's version does seem more fluid.

<cite>:I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach at it" to "approach to it."</cite>

Your change seems to enhance the flow of the sentence so I think we should go with that.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:57, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

I've made some modifications to this section, based mostly on TLG's original text rather than what was here. Please look it over and make any further improvements necessary.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== "Kyon, we are good friends right...?" ===

The paragraph's around the quote above have be rather confused. Here's the whole section:

<blockquote>
"Please."

She put her palms together and asked sincerely. Faced with her request, I could only give vague responses like "erm", "ahh...". Asakura took that as a yes and showed her yellow-tulip-like smile, and then went back to the other girls. After seeing that the other girls were looking at me, my heart fell to the bottom of a canyon.

"Kyon, we are good friends right...?"

Taniguchi stared at me suspiciously and asked: "What the hell is going on here?" Even Kunikida, with his eyes closed and arms crossed on his chest, nodded.

Oh my god! Why am I surrounded by a bunch of idiots?
</blockquote>

I'm rewriting this as:

<blockquote>
"Please?" she asked sincerely, putting her palms together.

Faced with her request, I could only give vague responses like "erm", "ahh...". Asakura took that as a yes and showed her yellow-tulip-like smile, and then went back to the other girls. After seeing that the other girls were looking at me, my heart fell to the bottom of a canyon.

"Kyon, we are good friends right...?" Taniguchi asked, stareding at me suspiciously.

"What the hell is going on here?"

Even Kunikida, with his eyes closed and arms crossed on his chest, nodded.

Oh my god! Why am I surrounded by a bunch of idiots?
</blockquote>

I've changed the attribution of one of the lines of dialogue, as it doesn't make sense to me that Taniguchi would ask "What the hell is going on here?". Rather, he wants to have some of Kyon's sudden popularity with the girls rub off on him. (Of course he later goes the other way, not wanting Kyon to pass on the "Haruhi virus" to him.) Have I misunderstood the situation? Could somebody with the Japanese novel confirm my new version? There are probably a few other confusing passages caused by similar structure where a quote is separated from the attribution in an unnatural way. Some of them work, but others don't.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Reordering of a couple lines in chapter 1 ===

"You mean the alien stuff?"

Kunikida, who was busy picking bones out of his fried fish, butted in:

"Yeah that. Even back in junior high she always said and did lots of weird stuff. For example there was this school vandalization incident!"

This is a minor problem, particularly in english but presumably not Japanese, the logical order would be that the statement would be after the colon. This would have confused english readers into thinking that Kunikuda was "butting in" recollection of Haruhi's past school life and consequently make no logical sense up till the break to the next scene. So I propose that order in which the lines come in be changed around so that it would show:

''Kunikida, who was busy picking bones out of his fried fish, butted in: "You mean the alien stuff?"''

"Yeah that. Even back in junior high she always said and did lots of weird stuff. For example there was this school vandalization incident!"

When I first read Chapter 1, this section bothered me quite a bit.

''edit2: I am sorry about making a new section in the discussion panel, I did not recognize the preferred format at first.''

--[[User:Jayohz|Jayohz]] 12:50, 1 June 2006 (PDT)

:Hmm, an alternative might be to do away with the colon all together and just rearrange the attribution to:

::"You mean the alien stuff?" Kunikida butted in, while busily picking bones out of his fried fish.

:It could perhaps be fixed with even less rewording (just changes to punctuation):

::"You mean the alien stuff?" Kunikida—busily picking the bones from his fried fish—butted in.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:41, 1 June 2006 (PDT)

Any one of those is fine but I suppose the one that is closest to the original Japanese would be the most correct and efficiently translated. So, if there is a colon in the original text, it might be just best to leave it. Another option would be to adopt the most simplest form--the narrator is supposedly 15-- so either rearranging the order or BlckKnght's first choice would be preferable.

--[[User:Jayohz|Jayohz]] 20:27, 1 June 2006 (PDT)

== Resolved Issues ==

=== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ===
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

No excuse here. I was being radical. Personally I feel that this translation corresponds closest to the actual undertone of the phase.

I wanted to go for the really literal route- what an English speaker may say in that situation.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== "Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all." ===
On one of SH's official wallpapers, the line is translated as the following in the ever so amusing Engrish style- ''man of doesn't have the interest. Please come to me If you are Alien, TimeTraveler, Another world person, ESP. That's it...'' --[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:46, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The fansub for the anime translates the equivalent line to something quite similar, so it seems pretty accurate, to me. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 16:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ===
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Is the "had" really necessary in "had assumed"? Why not just "so I assumed she went to the cafeteria..."? It's simpler and carries the same message. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:06, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Well, to me, since the story is narrated in past tense, just "I assumed" could cause some confusion, as it kind of implies he did so throughout the story, while "had assumed" says he did so at that time. The latter seems to be more accurate, to me. Others may disagree, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 23:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:::I see what you mean. The "had" is a good choice. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:34, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

=== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ===
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I had assumed that as well, but now that Ryukaiser mentions it, I think it should go to with the "would have looked like" thing. I guess we need to see the original translation to really tell?
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 10:44, 21 April 2006 (CST)

:I agree with using the present tense in Kyon's musings about the hair styles. I think the "would have looked like" phrase works well without having the original Japanese on hand. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:12, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Now that more chapters have been translated and edited, it appears that the earlier speculations that Kyon's narrative in the past tense only covers up to the point by which the SOS Brigade was performed, though where exactly, I haven't read thoroughly enough to ascertain.

In any case, this minor issue can be resolved now and I propose a substitute for the current sentence used:

*The original
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following the previous logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.

*My suggestion
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following this logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see what her hair would've looked like on Sunday.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:20, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

=== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ===
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

=== What is that girl trying to pull? ===
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Heh "unfathomable"... IMHO, I believe the phrase is fine as it is. The reader doesn't know what Haruhi was doing so Kyon is politely expressing his wonder at the time without giving any spoilers. Also, since large illustrations are used to accompany each page, I believe that the novel tries to involve the reader as much as possible. When I read the passage in question, I imagined seeing an illustration of Haruhi grinning mischeviously from Kyon's point of view. Maybe such thoughts stem from my exposure to the animated version of the novel. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:46, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

=== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ===
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:I'm amused at the "What the hell does Earth want?!" It's not a phrase you hear often or at all. It also doesn't sound like something a translator can make up. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:05, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

It's a pretty accurate translation of the original text, which is:

地球はいったい何がやりたいんだろう。黄熱病にでもかかってるんじゃないか。

''chikyuu wa ittai nani ga yaritain darou. ounetsubyou ni demo kakatterun ja nai ka.''

I take it to mean that Kyon is anthropomorphizing the Earth, as an entity that is actively out to get him, by deliberately placing weather and natural obstacles in his path.

As for the Yellow Fever thing? Well, either he means "jaundice" (although that would be 黄疸 ''oudan''), or we can chalk it down to the rather unscientific (superstitious, even) Japanese attitude to disease and health issues. Yellow Fever is a contagious disease that is spread to humans by infected mosquitos in tropical regions, but in Japan there is still an almost 19th century-ish belief that contagious diseases can arise from exertion or exhaustion. It's amusing, really -- I'm a medical historian, and I see this sort of thing all the time, in European texts from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 03:17, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm sure that readers will be just as confused as we editors were with this, but now we have an explanation it's much clearer. I think we should have a page for translator's notes so that the readers and editors won't be so confused.
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:22, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed. Somewhere to explain references that can be lost across the cultures is necessary - we're translating across cultures as well as languages afterall.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:37, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Incidentally, I believe "the world" has the same role in English as "the Earth" seems to have in Japanese. To wit:
:''It seems like the world is against me, sometimes.''
-- a perfectly colloquial English sentence.

As for "Yellow Fever" ... "nervous breakdown"? At least that fits the exertion/exhaustion criteria, mostly because it's an exact medical match. Still, just from the previous information, nervous breakdowns seem to be referenced in English similarly to the usage of Yellow Fever in Japanese. A link to translation notes would be good in any case, since it was an interesting bit of trivia.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:29, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

I think "nervous breakdown/exhaustion" (or just "collapse from exhaustion") is a perfectly acceptable change to make. The Yellow Fever remark would not carry all the appropriate connotations for an English reader, whereas prostration or exhaustion would.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:33, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

While your interpretation is perfectly fine, I must say that I do agree with The naming game rather strongly in that it would be a shame to omit the bit of trivia regarding Japanese superstitions. Hence, I would also suggest keeping the original form of "yellow fever" or a suitable substitute whilst adding a translation note regarding it, explaining the reason for using the term "yellow fever" and its correlation to Japanese superstition.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 23:02, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

=== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ===
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:"across" is a good word to use. I concur. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:07, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The passage in question (on page 26 of the novel) is:

「よ、キョン」

後ろから肩を叩かれた。谷口だった。

ブレザーをだらしなく肩に引っかけ、ネクタイをよれよれに結んだニヤケ面で、

「ゴールデンウィークはどっか行ったか？」

__

"Hey, Kyon."

From behind, somebody clapped me on the shoulder. It was Taniguchi.

His blazer hung slovenly on his shoulders, his necktie was wrinkled and skewed to one side.

"Where did you go for Golden Week?"

__

I've taken the liberty of making this correction in the text.
--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== My grandma was the one who first called me that. ===

『最初に言い出だしたのは叔母の一人だったように記憶している。』

My mistake. I used the Chinese edition to translate and it was a mistake. The original Japanese version says "one of my aunts". I checked the Japanese volume to make sure it says aunts.

Found on MegaTokyo. Strangely enough no one tried to correct the mistake. I really hope people just correct it- if you notice the mistake, correct it.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

=== As this and that was happening -- although it was always Haruhi at the center of it all -- May arrived. ===
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:In the middle of this and that happening, well, the one doing this and that was no other than Haruhi, May arrived.
</cite>

I wasn't clear on "this and that" referring to Haruhi's craziness, until I read Cruzz's translation. So perhaps a rephrase could emphasize that part?

Possible change:
<cite>
:As this and that was happening -- and it was always Haruhi at its center, causing it all -- May arrived.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I didn't realize there was [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1#In_the_middle_of_all_this_mess_there_is_always_only_one_perpetrator:_Haruhi_.E2.80.93_May_arrives_quietly.|already a discussion ]] of this phrase on the talk page. I didn't recognize it when skimming the titles because the wording had changed greatly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 20:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

=== I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. ===
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Turning back forward holding my ringing head, ...
</cite>

Suggested change:

<cite>
:I turned back slowly, holding my ringing head.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I re-read the passage where this line originated from and unless we re-structure that passage, the only changes that are suitable are ones that stick with the raw translation noted above.
I've given it quite a bit of thought and I've found it impossible to use a sentence that seems more coherent than the raw translation, given the order that the passage has been written in.
Thus, here's my suggestion to re-structuring the passage:

*The original
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. I noticed that the whole class looked totally awestruck. The freshly-graduated newbie teacher, with her chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was ready to cry.

*My suggestion
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. Whilst massaging the back of my head, which was now throbbing, I turned around slowly, only to find that the whole class was completely dumbstruck. The freshly-graduated fledgling teacher, with a chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was about to cry.

I note that since this is one of my suggestions, a change like mine may not be "like a needle in a hay stack".
I invite anyone else to have an attempt at changing this. Hopefully someone might come up with a suggestion that will meld in perfectly with the rest of the text.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:53, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

I've made a change here, based a bit off of the discussion here. Please take a look and edit more if needed.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== ...all the tables were moved out into the corridor... ===
My knowledge of the contents of Japanese classrooms is limited to what I've seen in various School animes, but it seems to me that "tables" should be changed to "desks" in the paragraph:

<cite>
:"Once I came to the classroom in the morning and discovered that all the tables were moved out to the corridor, or that there were printed stars on the school roof. Another time she was going around the school posting curse papers all over the place...you know, those Chinese vampire ones where you put the paper talisman on a vampire's forehead. I just can't understand her."
</cite>

If this is a language issue (i.e. Japanese does not distinguish between desks and tables in the same way as English) then it might be worth looking at other places the word "table" is used to see if the same change would be appropriate there too. Any thoughts?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:25, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

From my knowledge of both Japanese and Mandarin chinese, unlike English, there is no clear distinction between desks and tables.

For the sake of making clear distinctions between a certain type of object, as there would be in English, I think we should adapt the translations according to the context. So for the case of a class room, the translation for "table" should be interpreted as "desk", and so on so forth.

Please proceed and make the changes as you deem suitable regarding this topic.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:30, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

=== Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself. ====
I'm not sure if I understand this sentance correctly in the current version. Kyon thinks that Taniguchi was one of the guys Haruhi dumped?

If so, I suggest a change to something like:

<cite>
:Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.
</cite>

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:29, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Compared to the original translation, your suggestion seems to be better BlckKnght. I think it is simply because the original of "Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself." could imply that he was dumped but not neccessarily by Haruhi whereas with "Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.", it becomes obvious that he got the "5-minute dump" from Haruhi.

I think the change would suit the context better.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:25, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

:Well, that's the question: Did Taniguchi actually get dumped by Haruhi, or does Kyon merely consider such a possibility?

:Maybe something more like "Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?" would preserve the ambiguity. Could a translator take a look at that section?

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 06:37, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Although both our suggested interpretations would connotate the same thing (that Kyon would be guessing that Taniguchi got dumped by Haruhi), the degree by which he would be doing so is not as strong in your suggested interpretation. By this, I mean that this sentence "''Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.''" implies that Kyon would be inclined to assume that Taniguchi got dumped whereas "''Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?''" impies that Kyon is largely unsure whether he was dumped by Haruhi.

Again, the actual source text would be invaluable to decide which would suit the context better.

However, if I had to choose which sentence would suit Kyon as a character, I would think the sentence "''Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.''" would fit the cynical and sarcastic nature of Kyon much better than "''Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?''", which would be something a "nicer person" would think to themselves, such as a character like Mikuru.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:56, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

I made the change, using the first (non-questioning) form.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== People with average grades ===

Anyway, everyone in this school came from one of the four junior high schools in the city. People with average grades. This, of course, includes East Junior High; therefore there should have been people who graduated with Haruhi, who knew what her silence symbolized.

The "people with average grades" sentence is incomplete and seems disconnected from its context. Was something accidentally edited out...?

That part is in parentheses and seems to modify the part right before it, meaning the students who go to their high school are the average ones. Maybe the two should be combined to avoid looking like a fragment?

I suggest just putting that part in parentheses like in the original. And for reference, here's that part:

　このように一瞬にしてカラス全員のハートをいろんな意味でキャッチした涼宮ハルヒだが、翌日以降しばらくは割とおとなしく一見無害な女子高生を演じていた。

　嵐の前の静けさ、という言葉の意味が今の俺にはやく解る。

　いや、この高校に来るのは、もともと市内の四つの中学校出身の生徒たち（成績が普通レベルの奴ら）ばかりだし、東中もその中に入っていたから、涼宮ハルヒと同じ中学から進学した奴らもいるわけで、そんな彼らにしてみればこいつの雌伏状態が何かの前兆であることに気付いていたんだろうが、あいにく俺は東中に知り合いがいなかったしクラスの誰も教えてくれなかったから、スットンキョー自己紹介から数日後、忘れもしない朝のホームルームが始まる前だ。涼宮ハルヒに話しかけるという愚の骨頂なことを俺はしでかしてしまった。

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 10:24, 26 May 2006 (PDT)

:Hmm, I don't think parentheses are appropriate in the translation as it is currently written. Leaving the fragment would work, since dialogue—in this case, internal dialog—is less formal than other writing. Maybe a comma or dash would be best to get rid of the fragment.

:Speaking of dashes, we should probably go through the text and try to standardize our use of dashes. I know a few places they have been put in as single hyphens (-) and sometimes as two hyphens (--). There is also inconsistant spacing around them that should be standardized: where American style prints an em dash without any spaces, European style substitutes an en dash with spaces on each side. Also, I think that some clauses that currently seperated with commans should instead use dashes to add emphasis or to clearly separate clauses with internal commas (such as my sentance above).

:For reference, I typed in the dashes in the first of my paragraphs above using an HTML named entity (&mdash;), but entering the unicode character directly (—) is "cleaner" in some respects. Using a numeric entity (&#8212;) will render correctly in browsers that do not support the others (Netscape 4.x for example), but is ugly and hard to understand in the source code.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 00:35, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

=== For a guy at least. ===

The following paragraph has some very strange puncuation to try to tie together a sentance structure that simply does not work in english:

<blockquote>Who would dare to confess face-to-face to a girl who obviously looks down on him? - For a guy at least. They lost their gut just from your expression! I keep on trying to guess what those guys were thinking as I respond to Haruhi.</blockquote>

Any ideas on how to rephrase it?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 01:40, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

Here's the original:

　虫でも見るような目つきを前にして重大な―少なくとも本人にとっては―打ち明けごとをする気になれなかっただろう男の気分をトレースしながら一応俺は同意しておいた。

...my rough translation:

I can agree with those guys. Making such an important ― for them, at least ― confession in front of someone who would look at you like you were a worm would probably make anyone feel uneasy.

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 11:15, 28 May 2006 (PDT)

=== At the end I got the second to last seat of the court-facing windowside column. ===

I'd like to reword the sentance above, but I don't have a good idea of what to do. I think "court-facing" and "windowside" both need to go, but the question is, what to replace them with. Ideas?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 01:40, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

Maybe something like "second-to-last seat next to the window, overlooking the courtyard." Here's the original:

中庭に面した窓際後方二番目

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 03:17, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

I've rewritten this sentance. Thanks for the explanation [[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]]!

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== ...released the 50-ton bomb ===

I'm curious about the phrase Kyon uses to describe Haruhi's introduction. He compares it to releasing a 50-ton bomb. That seems strange to me, as 50 tons is tremendously heavy. I dug around a bit and found two possible bombs he could be referring to:

#The first Hydrogen bomb—code named "Ivy Mike" and detonated by the United States in 1952—was an enormous device housed in a 2-story building on Enewetak Atoll in the Marshal Islands (its detonation totally destroyed the island of Elugelab). A large number of sources on the internet say that it weighed 50 tons (though [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_Mike Wikipedia] suggests it was actually around 82 tons).
#The reference could be to a 50 megaton bomb. That is the approximate yield of largest nuclear bomb ever to be detonated (or built). Commonly known as the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba Tsar Bomba], it was built and droped on Novaya Zemlya island in the Arctic Ocean by the USSR in 1961. Its primary purpose was as a Cold War political stunt, since at 8 meters long and weighing 27 metric tons, it was too large to be a practical weapon.

Could somebody check the original book to see if the translation is correct (ie, tons vs megatons)? While it is possible the reference is to Ivy Mike (especially with Japanese society having very high awareness of US nuclear testing in the Pacific), such a large bomb could not ever be "released" from anything. It was a building constructed on an island, not a bomb that could be dropped from a plane, so the usage seems to be a mistake (though it is entirely possible that it is either Kyon or Tanigawa-sensei who made the mistake, rather than the translator).

[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 09:21, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

Funny you should note this... I also felt weird about this line and looked it up. Here's the original:

　頭でひねっていた最低限のセリフを何とか噛まずに言い終え、やるべきことをやったという解放感に包まれながら俺は着席した。替わりに後ろの奴が立ち上がり―ああ、俺は生涯このことを忘れないだろうな―後々語り草となる言葉をのたまった。

Which translates to something like:

After I managed to finish my carefully thought-out, minimal-length introduction without stumbling over my words somewhat, I sat down, tucked in that feeling of relief you get after having done something you had to do. The person behind me stood up for her turn and―ah I probably won't forget this for the rest of my life―said the words that would be the topic of conversation for a long time.

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 12:04, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

I thought about it some more and need some clarification... the original text used 噛 (to bite, chew, gnaw), so it's literally "without chewing my words." I put in "mumbling" for now. Any suggestions?

(Clarified - 噛む also has a slang meaning of saying something incorrectly, or getting a line wrong; updated the above translation accordingly)

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 21:42, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

I've rewritten the passage, loosely based on your translation. Thanks!

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

== Grammar Corrections ==

A Few minor corrections I thought I'd leave here. I probably would not have caught them if I my English teacher last year hadn't always take off a full point per grammar/spelling mistake.

'''"At the end he/she could only say "I see...then I will just...", and ask themselves..."'''

-Here it is probably fine to leave he/she because it is a translation (showing the victims to be both male and female), but 'he' is the standard for a pronoun with a gender unknown. But, you should change "themselves" to "himself or herself" (or himself/herself to match with your slash usage before. You may also want to use "or" instead of a slash in the future because the slash in this place is non-standard usage and probably would not be used in a book.)

'''"Therefore when I came to school the next day and discovered that instead of tying three ponytails, Haruhi had cut her long and slender hair short, I felt quite depressed".'''

-You need a comma after "therefore" because "when I.... ponytails" is a separate clause and "Therefore" is part of the clause "I felt quite depressed".

'''" But none of it is possible— no aliens, time travelers, or supernatural powers exist in this world. Okay, let's say they do exist. They wouldn't just appear right in front of us humble citizens and say, “Hello, I'm actually an alien.”'''
'''"THAT'S WHY!"'''

- Okay, this part is a bit confusing to me. Does the narrator actually Say the first paragraph above out loud? If so, you need quotes, one before "But" (the one up there is one I added to quote text) and another after "alien."

That's all I found, keep up the great work.

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-06-12T15:44:10Z

74.237.113.192: Grammar Corrections

== Translator's Notes ==

=== Cookie tin ===

They drew their new seat positions from a ハトサブレの缶 (Hatosabure no KAN).

Kamakura is famous for a biscuit called Hatosabure (鳩サブレー), a biscuit shaped like a pigeon. Sold next to Kamakura station and a very popular omiyage (souvenir) among the Japanese.

Toshimaya is a shop that sells many kinds of sweets. "Hato" (鳩) means dove in English and "sabure" (サブレ) is "sable" in French. Children loved the many white pigeons in Kamakura, so the owner of Toshimaya named the cookie "hatosabure."

Info from:
[http://wikitravel.org/en/Kamakura WikiTravel]
[http://ryokotsuzuki.tripod.com/ryoko.html Ryoko's Homepage]
[http://images.google.com.ph/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=hatosabure&sa=N&tab=wi Images]

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 03:44, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

== Open Translation Issues ==

=== ...May arrives... ===
(This topic was originally "In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly." renamed to be easier to find since the wording has changed --[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT))

This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yeah, I'll bug a translator and get this clarified. :) --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:00, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

'''[[User:Freak Of Nature|I (FON)]] was the translator that was bugged, and this is copied from my [[User_talk:Freak_Of_Nature|talk page]]:'''

:Since you apparently have access to the original Japanese novel here's a question. In Chapter 1 Kyon says:
:''In the middle of all this mess there was always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrived quietly.''
:In this passage, Kyon implies that all disturbances at the school are related to Haruhi's antics. In contrast, May is said to arrive without significant events occuring. Does the original Japanese contain this conflict? -- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:59, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Glad to assist. The original passage (end of page 25 in the novel) is

::そんなこんなをしながら～～もっとも、そんなこんなをしていたのはハルヒだけだったが～～五月がやってくる。

::'''sonnakonna o shinagara -- mottomo, sonnakonna shite ita no wa Haruhi dakedatta ga -- gogatsu yatte kuru.'''

::Or in other words:

::"As this and that was happening -- although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrived."

::That's the literal translation, and I think the translation you cited above is perhaps a bit too free.

::--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

After some thought, I've reached the conclusion that the sentence should be:

"As this and that is happening -- although it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrives."

This preserves Kyon's weird tenses throughout the sentence -- notice how the primary sentence is in present tense, whereas the secondary clause is in past tense. This is really most exasperating for a translator.

I've made the change in the text to this sentence.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:39, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

That may be an accurate translation, but it still seems a bit awkwardly worded in English. Maybe something like:

"With all this stuff going on -- even though Haruhi was the cause of it... but, anyway -- May arrives."

-- kumarei 10:15, 07 May 2006

:Hmm, sounds good - remove the comma after "but" maybe? Well, I'll let you edit the text so you can take credit for it. If others don't like it, it can be changed back afterwards.

:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:57, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

For some reason, both the "though" and "anyway" -- and their equivalents in the other sentence permutations -- don't seem to add any meaning, building up expectations that get left hanging.

'''Here's where "though" makes sense to me:'''
:''With all these deliveries needing to be made, though it was Mr. Incompetent driving, we all returned safely.''

There's no such surprise or expectation with May arriving despite Haruhi's being behind this and that. I'll break it down:
*deliveries needed '''plus''' Mr. Incompetent driving '''equals''' unlikely to return safely.
*this and that happening '''plus''' Haruhi being the cause '''equals''' May unlikely to arrive???

'''Here's where "anyway" makes sense to me:'''
:''With the sounds of birds singing -- hmmm, I could really go for a pizza about now... anyway -- May arrives.''

Again, the breakdown:
*birds singing '''plus''' irrelevant aside about pizza, '''anyway''', May arrives.
*this and that happening '''plus''' irrelevant ''(???)'' aside about Haruhi, '''anyway''', May arrives.
Haruhi has everything to do with "this and that" happening, so it's not really irrelevant. "Anyway" can also be used to gloss over embarrassing points -- that usage would fit, except Kyon really isn't one to gloss over anything.

'''The sentence structure really makes the most sense to me''' -- watch me build it up:
:''With the sound of birds singing, May arrives.''
and then:
:''With the sound of birds singing -- and the new birdfeeder was a big reason -- May arrives.''

Using kumarei's sentence as a base:
:''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''
or
:''With all this stuff going on -- and, by the way, Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

For yet another translation of the original sentence, which also is missing the extraneous signifiers "although" and "anyway," go
[[#As_this_and_that_was_happening_--_although_it_was_always_Haruhi_at_the_center_of_it_all_--_May_arrived.|here]].
The signifier he ''does'' use, "Well," is more along the lines of "By the way," which doesn't have problems fitting most places. Freak Of Nature ''does'' have signifiers in his literal translation, but if so, then as far as I'm concerned, the original text didn't make sense either.

My own guess, however, is that those signifiers are needed in Japanese, in order to complete the function that hyphens alone -- you know, these kinds of things -- carry in English. Therefore, they're not needed in an English translation, as adding them makes you expect an extra meaning, beyond the already implicit hyphen-aside function.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:20, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.''

I was debating about whether to use 'and' or 'though' in my version, and decided on 'though' since it seemed more accurate to what the original text was trying to convey. It felt to me as if 'though' gives it a bit of an accusatory twist, as in "I was very busy, though Haruhi was the cause", as opposed to "I was very busy, and Haruhi was the cause". If that's not conveyed, then I see no reason not to change it to 'and', since and does flow slightly better.

The anyway was because of the way I imagined Kyon saying the sentence. The part about Haruhi is really an aside, since the sentence is really about May getting there. The middle part is kind of a rehash, and not the point of the sentence, and in the Japanese would be ended with a hanging ''ga''. This carries a kind of assumed elipses which I didn't think could be added to the main aside, so I used the word 'anyway' to signify that he was pausing and getting back on track.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 16:06, 8 May 2006 (EST)

:Just curious, by the "accusatory twist" you're talking about, do you mean the same usage as in this? :
::''All the plates broke -- though it was HER fault!''
:In other words, anticipating an accusation, and pre-deflecting it. Though through usage, that presupposition no longer seems needed? ''(Even though that usage bugs me, I accept that it exists.)''
:Honestly, though, in overview, I'm realizing just how much is left to sense of "feel." The only way to correctly interpret the sentence needs information beyond the sentence, and possibly beyond the text itself.
:*Is Kyon trying to blatantly interject Haruhi's causing it, or is he feeling obligated to mention it, and gloss over it as fast as possible?
:*Does Kyon feel obliged to distance himself from Haruhi's actions? Does he feel he would be held responsible otherwise?
:*Does Kyon feel offended by Haruhi's actions? Or somewhat amused?
:Depending on the answers, I'd choose different means of expression. And this is just one sentence...

:Similar to the:
:*'''I''' did the dishes.
:*I '''did''' the dishes.
:*I did the '''dishes'''.
:subtlety -- one sentence, many ways to interpret.

:Or just for fun:
:*-- though '''Haruhi''' was always the cause... anyway --
:*-- though Haruhi '''was''' always the cause... anyway --
:*-- though Haruhi was '''always''' the cause... anyway --
:*-- though Haruhi was always the '''cause'''... anyway --
:*-- ''(speak this part fast)'' though Haruhi was always the cause... '''anyway''' --
:Some of these ARE a little silly, but they do all have specific meanings. In any case, I await the day when thought transfer devices become widespread, and authors can bottle up their thoughts in thought-playback modules.

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:17, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

Nice analysis of the structure The naming game. It seems clear that the use of '''though''' in that sentence is completely illogical. If we had to use a reason as to why it is, it is because Haruhi ''would not'' be the cause for a new month to come (in terms of the storyline, we know that Kyon doesn't know that Haruhi actually possesses supernatural powers yet).

'''I probably misinterpreted The naming game's analysis so the lines above may not apply.'''

If I had to compare the literal translation and The naming game's example of using '''though''', in terms of the application of the word though, they aren't that similar. Here's why I think so (I've categorised them in to letters and what not for ease of understanding):

'''The literal translation:'''
* '''As this and that was happening = A''' '''--although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that = B''', '''however -- May arrived. = C'''

In this case, '''B''' is the cause of '''A''' but regardless of that fact, '''C''' occurs.

'''The naming game's example:'''
* '''With all these deliveries needing to be made = X''', '''though it was Mr. Incompetent driving = Y''', '''we all returned safely = Z'''

In this case, '''X''' needs to be done and is carried out by '''Y'''. However, because '''Y''' is doing it, '''Z''' is jeopardised and may not occur. Yet despite '''Y''' performing '''X''', '''Z''' occurs.

Based on this breakdown, it seems that the literal translation is logical in its original state.

Anyhow, I've analysed the Japanese sentence provided and after noting Freak of nature's translation, here's another literal translation of what it means: ''While to do such a thing though, it was just Haruhi who does such a thing, but May comes.''. Another nonsensical sentence...
With respect to the original translation, Freak of Nature's literal translation and from what I've interpreted additionally (with the aid of The naming game's analysis), here's my suggested interpretation of this sentence:

'''The original translation:'''
* In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly.

'''My suggestion:'''
* Regardless of all the randomly inexplicable events that went by, even though Haruhi was the cause of them all, the month of May arrived.

Hence, in essence, my suggested substitute for the word "anyway" would be "regardless" or something along those lines, such as "despite".

Hope that helps.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 22:26, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

:Just as a quick note, for the purposes of the "though" function in the sentence examples, I consider "carried out by" and "caused by" to be essentially the same.
:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:17, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I think it would be perfectly acceptable to use [[User:The naming game|The naming game]]'s ''With all this stuff going on -- and Haruhi was the cause of it -- May arrives.'' I think it still carries the majority of the meaning of the sentence, and flows better than most of the other versions. I think the change that [[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] suggested might be a little too off of the original meaning.

--[[User:kumarei|Kumarei]] 18:46, 8 May 2006 (EST)

I understand that my interpretation may have strayed a little far from the original source material but in my opinion, my suggestion seemed to convey the original meaning intended whilst maintaining reasonable grammar. But ah, such is the nature of interpretation.

In any case, if you feel confident that your suggestion or The naming game's suggestion is fitting, then by all means, please proceed and change the lines in the chapter. I know one thing for sure is that I have difficulty conforming to any other style of writing other than my own thus; I will not change the text unless the alteration is minor and the stylistic disparity is negligible.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:58, 9 May 2006 (GMT)

Hmm. That's a pretty high horse you're riding, '''Da~Mike'''. Hang on tight.

I think the version you proposed for Kyon's narrative, to wit:

<cite>
:''Regardless of all the randomly inexplicable events that went by, even though Haruhi was the cause of them all, the month of May arrived.''
</cite>

is needlessly complicated, and uses verbiage that seems completely discordant with Kyon's narrative style. This is not a question of "interpretation" -- you've managed to completely alter the tone of the sentence.

The Japanese original isn't ''that'' complicated. There's a main sentence which references the events (''As all this is happening''), with a subordinate clause in Kyon's characteristically variant tense (''although it was always Haruhi at center of it''), inserted into the middle of the sentence, which is then completed (''May arrives.''). There's no need for complicated words in any of it -- and the only really challenging parts are making the translated version flow well, and taking the tense variation into account. The original speaks only of "this and that" happening, not of "randomly inexplicable events". Kyon is a highschooler, not a physics major.

I move we keep the simple version that is currently in the translation:

<cite>
:''So, with all this stuff going on -- though Haruhi was always the cause... anyway -- May arrived.
</cite>

I can't "hear" Kyon saying something as needlessly elaborate as your suggestion. And yes, I feel confident of this.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 11:11, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

Well, I stand corrected [[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]. ^,^

I'm perfectly fine with the version you already suggested. It's just that I'd thought I'd try my hand at interpreting that tiny sentence and... My version ended up quite different compared to the original text, according to your argument that is.
Like I mentioned above, I find it hard to conform to any other writing style other than my own and in case if you ever wondered, I literally talk the way I type. As a result, like I've mentioned in numerous places throughout this entire site, '''''I will generally abstain from editing the main text'''''.

Well I guess that is that and what you mentioned should conclude this small discussion [[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]].

Oh and thank you for your enlightening input. I shall keep that in mind the next time I offer an interpretation for one of Kyon's phrases. ^_~

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 19:24, 9 May 2006 (GMT)

I tend to write and talk the same way, as well -- that is, with a highly complex sentence structure and with elaborate usage of obscure terms, strained metaphors and overworked similes. When I write my own copy, that is how I prefer to write (you should see some of my academic work... ''"Ach und Weh!"''). However, translating (or writing copy to order for a specific audience) places strictures on the way one can allow oneself to write, and it is terribly important to recognize and accept these strictures. Else, frustration is unavoidable.

Or to put it in a simpler way: "I get where you're coming from. But let's focus on the task."

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:09, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I hate to risk reopening this can of worms, but I thought I'd note that I've removed the "anyways" from this sentance. I don't think it was gramatical to have that kind of word included as part of a dash separated clause. It just looked unnatural. I think the real issue is that it's hard to capture rambling dialogue in prose. I'm not sure the "anyway" was that important for this sentance, but if there are other similar sections we may need to use lots of ellipses.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ===
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Good call. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:12, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Hmm, the "is are" construction is back in the text as of a recent edit. It is ugly, but I think grammatical. I'm really a bit baffled by the purpose of the whole sentance. Kyon suddenly mentions dreams and pets apropos nothing. --[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 11:14, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi. ===
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:But it's not like there weren't people who hadn't understood yet, who didn't have an eye for this kind of thing. There still were classmates who'd try to talk about something to Suzumiya Haruhi, who was always scowling and making a line with her lips as if she was in a bad mood.
</cite>

Possible change:
<cite>
:But there were still those who hadn't understood yet. There were still people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The sentence in the title suggests a meaning that appears to be absent in both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations; it implies that for some reason, people (including Kyon himself) were drawn to Haruhi and would still try to talk to her, regardless of whether they understood her or accepted her nature.

Again, the source text would be incredibly helpful if we are to clarify this. Could someone provide the source text for this particular phrase please? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:13, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

=== the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi. ===
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:At this point I must have been possessed by some sort of evil spirit, I can't think of any other reason for this. When I came back to my senses I was talking with Haruhi.
</cite>

The extra bit of meaning in Cruzz's translation is "possessed by some sort of evil spirit" -- which forms a nice parallel with the corresponding "when I came back to my senses." This small bit of wit really isn't that crucial, but I thought I'd throw this in for completeness.

Is this same parallelism there in the original?

Possible change:
<cite>
:the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I regained my sanity, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

The title sentence is quite amusing if misinterpreted. You could interpret that what Kyon's saying is that by the time he realised he was going nuts, he found himself talking to Haruhi. But then again, it could be part of the original novel's humour. Both Cruzz's and The naming game's interpretations imply that despite Kyon regaining his sanity/senses (when he was previously unsure of), he still found himself talking to Haruhi.

It all seems fairly confusing I think...
Okay, so here are the possible meanings of the sentence:
'''Kyon thinks he's going crazy''':
* and by the time he realised that he was, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and by the time he regained his senses/sanity, he found himself talking to Haruhi
* and before he could mentally establish the fact that he was talking to Haruhi, he was already talking to her.

The actual phrase used in the Japanese book would be of an enormous help (or a literal translation of the original source phrase). Could one of the translators please provide this? Thanks.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:06, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

I've just rewritten this sentance and while it still flows a bit awkwardly, I think it captures some of Kyon's breathless narative style (which is captured quite impressively by his voice actor in the Anime). It could probably still be improved, for which a close translation of the original Japanse would be helpful.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream. ===
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Even now, she's eagerly waiting for that chance meeting with the paranormal, something I gave up on a long time ago. And she's certainly taking an active approach at it.
</cite>

I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach ''at'' it" to "approach ''to'' it."

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz's version does seem more fluid.

<cite>:I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach at it" to "approach to it."</cite>

Your change seems to enhance the flow of the sentence so I think we should go with that.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:57, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

I've made some modifications to this section, based mostly on TLG's original text rather than what was here. Please look it over and make any further improvements necessary.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== "Kyon, we are good friends right...?" ===

The paragraph's around the quote above have be rather confused. Here's the whole section:

<blockquote>
"Please."

She put her palms together and asked sincerely. Faced with her request, I could only give vague responses like "erm", "ahh...". Asakura took that as a yes and showed her yellow-tulip-like smile, and then went back to the other girls. After seeing that the other girls were looking at me, my heart fell to the bottom of a canyon.

"Kyon, we are good friends right...?"

Taniguchi stared at me suspiciously and asked: "What the hell is going on here?" Even Kunikida, with his eyes closed and arms crossed on his chest, nodded.

Oh my god! Why am I surrounded by a bunch of idiots?
</blockquote>

I'm rewriting this as:

<blockquote>
"Please?" she asked sincerely, putting her palms together.

Faced with her request, I could only give vague responses like "erm", "ahh...". Asakura took that as a yes and showed her yellow-tulip-like smile, and then went back to the other girls. After seeing that the other girls were looking at me, my heart fell to the bottom of a canyon.

"Kyon, we are good friends right...?" Taniguchi asked, stareding at me suspiciously.

"What the hell is going on here?"

Even Kunikida, with his eyes closed and arms crossed on his chest, nodded.

Oh my god! Why am I surrounded by a bunch of idiots?
</blockquote>

I've changed the attribution of one of the lines of dialogue, as it doesn't make sense to me that Taniguchi would ask "What the hell is going on here?". Rather, he wants to have some of Kyon's sudden popularity with the girls rub off on him. (Of course he later goes the other way, not wanting Kyon to pass on the "Haruhi virus" to him.) Have I misunderstood the situation? Could somebody with the Japanese novel confirm my new version? There are probably a few other confusing passages caused by similar structure where a quote is separated from the attribution in an unnatural way. Some of them work, but others don't.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== Reordering of a couple lines in chapter 1 ===

"You mean the alien stuff?"

Kunikida, who was busy picking bones out of his fried fish, butted in:

"Yeah that. Even back in junior high she always said and did lots of weird stuff. For example there was this school vandalization incident!"

This is a minor problem, particularly in english but presumably not Japanese, the logical order would be that the statement would be after the colon. This would have confused english readers into thinking that Kunikuda was "butting in" recollection of Haruhi's past school life and consequently make no logical sense up till the break to the next scene. So I propose that order in which the lines come in be changed around so that it would show:

''Kunikida, who was busy picking bones out of his fried fish, butted in: "You mean the alien stuff?"''

"Yeah that. Even back in junior high she always said and did lots of weird stuff. For example there was this school vandalization incident!"

When I first read Chapter 1, this section bothered me quite a bit.

''edit2: I am sorry about making a new section in the discussion panel, I did not recognize the preferred format at first.''

--[[User:Jayohz|Jayohz]] 12:50, 1 June 2006 (PDT)

:Hmm, an alternative might be to do away with the colon all together and just rearrange the attribution to:

::"You mean the alien stuff?" Kunikida butted in, while busily picking bones out of his fried fish.

:It could perhaps be fixed with even less rewording (just changes to punctuation):

::"You mean the alien stuff?" Kunikida—busily picking the bones from his fried fish—butted in.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:41, 1 June 2006 (PDT)

Any one of those is fine but I suppose the one that is closest to the original Japanese would be the most correct and efficiently translated. So, if there is a colon in the original text, it might be just best to leave it. Another option would be to adopt the most simplest form--the narrator is supposedly 15-- so either rearranging the order or BlckKnght's first choice would be preferable.

--[[User:Jayohz|Jayohz]] 20:27, 1 June 2006 (PDT)

== Resolved Issues ==

=== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ===
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

No excuse here. I was being radical. Personally I feel that this translation corresponds closest to the actual undertone of the phase.

I wanted to go for the really literal route- what an English speaker may say in that situation.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== "Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all." ===
On one of SH's official wallpapers, the line is translated as the following in the ever so amusing Engrish style- ''man of doesn't have the interest. Please come to me If you are Alien, TimeTraveler, Another world person, ESP. That's it...'' --[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 14:46, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The fansub for the anime translates the equivalent line to something quite similar, so it seems pretty accurate, to me. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 16:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ===
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Is the "had" really necessary in "had assumed"? Why not just "so I assumed she went to the cafeteria..."? It's simpler and carries the same message. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:06, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

::Well, to me, since the story is narrated in past tense, just "I assumed" could cause some confusion, as it kind of implies he did so throughout the story, while "had assumed" says he did so at that time. The latter seems to be more accurate, to me. Others may disagree, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 23:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:::I see what you mean. The "had" is a good choice. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:34, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

=== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ===
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I had assumed that as well, but now that Ryukaiser mentions it, I think it should go to with the "would have looked like" thing. I guess we need to see the original translation to really tell?
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 10:44, 21 April 2006 (CST)

:I agree with using the present tense in Kyon's musings about the hair styles. I think the "would have looked like" phrase works well without having the original Japanese on hand. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:12, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Now that more chapters have been translated and edited, it appears that the earlier speculations that Kyon's narrative in the past tense only covers up to the point by which the SOS Brigade was performed, though where exactly, I haven't read thoroughly enough to ascertain.

In any case, this minor issue can be resolved now and I propose a substitute for the current sentence used:

*The original
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following the previous logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.

*My suggestion
As the day of the week increased, so would the number of her ponytails; by next Monday, the whole process would start again. I couldn't see why she was doing it. Following this logic, she should have had six ponytails on Sunday... I suddenly want to see what her hair would've looked like on Sunday.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:20, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

=== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ===
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

=== What is that girl trying to pull? ===
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

: Heh "unfathomable"... IMHO, I believe the phrase is fine as it is. The reader doesn't know what Haruhi was doing so Kyon is politely expressing his wonder at the time without giving any spoilers. Also, since large illustrations are used to accompany each page, I believe that the novel tries to involve the reader as much as possible. When I read the passage in question, I imagined seeing an illustration of Haruhi grinning mischeviously from Kyon's point of view. Maybe such thoughts stem from my exposure to the animated version of the novel. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:46, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

=== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ===
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:I'm amused at the "What the hell does Earth want?!" It's not a phrase you hear often or at all. It also doesn't sound like something a translator can make up. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:05, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

It's a pretty accurate translation of the original text, which is:

地球はいったい何がやりたいんだろう。黄熱病にでもかかってるんじゃないか。

''chikyuu wa ittai nani ga yaritain darou. ounetsubyou ni demo kakatterun ja nai ka.''

I take it to mean that Kyon is anthropomorphizing the Earth, as an entity that is actively out to get him, by deliberately placing weather and natural obstacles in his path.

As for the Yellow Fever thing? Well, either he means "jaundice" (although that would be 黄疸 ''oudan''), or we can chalk it down to the rather unscientific (superstitious, even) Japanese attitude to disease and health issues. Yellow Fever is a contagious disease that is spread to humans by infected mosquitos in tropical regions, but in Japan there is still an almost 19th century-ish belief that contagious diseases can arise from exertion or exhaustion. It's amusing, really -- I'm a medical historian, and I see this sort of thing all the time, in European texts from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 03:17, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm sure that readers will be just as confused as we editors were with this, but now we have an explanation it's much clearer. I think we should have a page for translator's notes so that the readers and editors won't be so confused.
--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:22, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed. Somewhere to explain references that can be lost across the cultures is necessary - we're translating across cultures as well as languages afterall.
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:37, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Incidentally, I believe "the world" has the same role in English as "the Earth" seems to have in Japanese. To wit:
:''It seems like the world is against me, sometimes.''
-- a perfectly colloquial English sentence.

As for "Yellow Fever" ... "nervous breakdown"? At least that fits the exertion/exhaustion criteria, mostly because it's an exact medical match. Still, just from the previous information, nervous breakdowns seem to be referenced in English similarly to the usage of Yellow Fever in Japanese. A link to translation notes would be good in any case, since it was an interesting bit of trivia.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 11:29, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

I think "nervous breakdown/exhaustion" (or just "collapse from exhaustion") is a perfectly acceptable change to make. The Yellow Fever remark would not carry all the appropriate connotations for an English reader, whereas prostration or exhaustion would.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:33, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

While your interpretation is perfectly fine, I must say that I do agree with The naming game rather strongly in that it would be a shame to omit the bit of trivia regarding Japanese superstitions. Hence, I would also suggest keeping the original form of "yellow fever" or a suitable substitute whilst adding a translation note regarding it, explaining the reason for using the term "yellow fever" and its correlation to Japanese superstition.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 23:02, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

=== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ===
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:"across" is a good word to use. I concur. --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 00:07, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The passage in question (on page 26 of the novel) is:

「よ、キョン」

後ろから肩を叩かれた。谷口だった。

ブレザーをだらしなく肩に引っかけ、ネクタイをよれよれに結んだニヤケ面で、

「ゴールデンウィークはどっか行ったか？」

__

"Hey, Kyon."

From behind, somebody clapped me on the shoulder. It was Taniguchi.

His blazer hung slovenly on his shoulders, his necktie was wrinkled and skewed to one side.

"Where did you go for Golden Week?"

__

I've taken the liberty of making this correction in the text.
--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

=== My grandma was the one who first called me that. ===

『最初に言い出だしたのは叔母の一人だったように記憶している。』

My mistake. I used the Chinese edition to translate and it was a mistake. The original Japanese version says "one of my aunts". I checked the Japanese volume to make sure it says aunts.

Found on MegaTokyo. Strangely enough no one tried to correct the mistake. I really hope people just correct it- if you notice the mistake, correct it.

--[[User:Thelastguardian|Thelastguardian]] 02:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

=== As this and that was happening -- although it was always Haruhi at the center of it all -- May arrived. ===
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:In the middle of this and that happening, well, the one doing this and that was no other than Haruhi, May arrived.
</cite>

I wasn't clear on "this and that" referring to Haruhi's craziness, until I read Cruzz's translation. So perhaps a rephrase could emphasize that part?

Possible change:
<cite>
:As this and that was happening -- and it was always Haruhi at its center, causing it all -- May arrived.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I didn't realize there was [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1#In_the_middle_of_all_this_mess_there_is_always_only_one_perpetrator:_Haruhi_.E2.80.93_May_arrives_quietly.|already a discussion ]] of this phrase on the talk page. I didn't recognize it when skimming the titles because the wording had changed greatly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 20:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

=== I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. ===
(alt translation from [http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cruzz/haruhi/Haruhi.html Cruzz's site].)

<cite>
:Turning back forward holding my ringing head, ...
</cite>

Suggested change:

<cite>
:I turned back slowly, holding my ringing head.
</cite>

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I re-read the passage where this line originated from and unless we re-structure that passage, the only changes that are suitable are ones that stick with the raw translation noted above.
I've given it quite a bit of thought and I've found it impossible to use a sentence that seems more coherent than the raw translation, given the order that the passage has been written in.
Thus, here's my suggestion to re-structuring the passage:

*The original
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly. I noticed that the whole class looked totally awestruck. The freshly-graduated newbie teacher, with her chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was ready to cry.

*My suggestion
Haruhi finally let go of my collar. Whilst massaging the back of my head, which was now throbbing, I turned around slowly, only to find that the whole class was completely dumbstruck. The freshly-graduated fledgling teacher, with a chalk in her hand, stared at me and looked as if she was about to cry.

I note that since this is one of my suggestions, a change like mine may not be "like a needle in a hay stack".
I invite anyone else to have an attempt at changing this. Hopefully someone might come up with a suggestion that will meld in perfectly with the rest of the text.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:53, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

I've made a change here, based a bit off of the discussion here. Please take a look and edit more if needed.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== ...all the tables were moved out into the corridor... ===
My knowledge of the contents of Japanese classrooms is limited to what I've seen in various School animes, but it seems to me that "tables" should be changed to "desks" in the paragraph:

<cite>
:"Once I came to the classroom in the morning and discovered that all the tables were moved out to the corridor, or that there were printed stars on the school roof. Another time she was going around the school posting curse papers all over the place...you know, those Chinese vampire ones where you put the paper talisman on a vampire's forehead. I just can't understand her."
</cite>

If this is a language issue (i.e. Japanese does not distinguish between desks and tables in the same way as English) then it might be worth looking at other places the word "table" is used to see if the same change would be appropriate there too. Any thoughts?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:25, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

From my knowledge of both Japanese and Mandarin chinese, unlike English, there is no clear distinction between desks and tables.

For the sake of making clear distinctions between a certain type of object, as there would be in English, I think we should adapt the translations according to the context. So for the case of a class room, the translation for "table" should be interpreted as "desk", and so on so forth.

Please proceed and make the changes as you deem suitable regarding this topic.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:30, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

=== Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself. ====
I'm not sure if I understand this sentance correctly in the current version. Kyon thinks that Taniguchi was one of the guys Haruhi dumped?

If so, I suggest a change to something like:

<cite>
:Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.
</cite>

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 23:29, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Compared to the original translation, your suggestion seems to be better BlckKnght. I think it is simply because the original of "Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself." could imply that he was dumped but not neccessarily by Haruhi whereas with "Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.", it becomes obvious that he got the "5-minute dump" from Haruhi.

I think the change would suit the context better.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 00:25, 7 May 2006 (GMT)

:Well, that's the question: Did Taniguchi actually get dumped by Haruhi, or does Kyon merely consider such a possibility?

:Maybe something more like "Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?" would preserve the ambiguity. Could a translator take a look at that section?

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 06:37, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Although both our suggested interpretations would connotate the same thing (that Kyon would be guessing that Taniguchi got dumped by Haruhi), the degree by which he would be doing so is not as strong in your suggested interpretation. By this, I mean that this sentence "''Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.''" implies that Kyon would be inclined to assume that Taniguchi got dumped whereas "''Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?''" impies that Kyon is largely unsure whether he was dumped by Haruhi.

Again, the actual source text would be invaluable to decide which would suit the context better.

However, if I had to choose which sentence would suit Kyon as a character, I would think the sentence "''Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.''" would fit the cynical and sarcastic nature of Kyon much better than "''Was Taniguchi speaking from experience?''", which would be something a "nicer person" would think to themselves, such as a character like Mikuru.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 21:56, 8 May 2006 (GMT)

I made the change, using the first (non-questioning) form.

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== People with average grades ===

Anyway, everyone in this school came from one of the four junior high schools in the city. People with average grades. This, of course, includes East Junior High; therefore there should have been people who graduated with Haruhi, who knew what her silence symbolized.

The "people with average grades" sentence is incomplete and seems disconnected from its context. Was something accidentally edited out...?

That part is in parentheses and seems to modify the part right before it, meaning the students who go to their high school are the average ones. Maybe the two should be combined to avoid looking like a fragment?

I suggest just putting that part in parentheses like in the original. And for reference, here's that part:

　このように一瞬にしてカラス全員のハートをいろんな意味でキャッチした涼宮ハルヒだが、翌日以降しばらくは割とおとなしく一見無害な女子高生を演じていた。

　嵐の前の静けさ、という言葉の意味が今の俺にはやく解る。

　いや、この高校に来るのは、もともと市内の四つの中学校出身の生徒たち（成績が普通レベルの奴ら）ばかりだし、東中もその中に入っていたから、涼宮ハルヒと同じ中学から進学した奴らもいるわけで、そんな彼らにしてみればこいつの雌伏状態が何かの前兆であることに気付いていたんだろうが、あいにく俺は東中に知り合いがいなかったしクラスの誰も教えてくれなかったから、スットンキョー自己紹介から数日後、忘れもしない朝のホームルームが始まる前だ。涼宮ハルヒに話しかけるという愚の骨頂なことを俺はしでかしてしまった。

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 10:24, 26 May 2006 (PDT)

:Hmm, I don't think parentheses are appropriate in the translation as it is currently written. Leaving the fragment would work, since dialogue—in this case, internal dialog—is less formal than other writing. Maybe a comma or dash would be best to get rid of the fragment.

:Speaking of dashes, we should probably go through the text and try to standardize our use of dashes. I know a few places they have been put in as single hyphens (-) and sometimes as two hyphens (--). There is also inconsistant spacing around them that should be standardized: where American style prints an em dash without any spaces, European style substitutes an en dash with spaces on each side. Also, I think that some clauses that currently seperated with commans should instead use dashes to add emphasis or to clearly separate clauses with internal commas (such as my sentance above).

:For reference, I typed in the dashes in the first of my paragraphs above using an HTML named entity (&mdash;), but entering the unicode character directly (—) is "cleaner" in some respects. Using a numeric entity (&#8212;) will render correctly in browsers that do not support the others (Netscape 4.x for example), but is ugly and hard to understand in the source code.

:--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 00:35, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

=== For a guy at least. ===

The following paragraph has some very strange puncuation to try to tie together a sentance structure that simply does not work in english:

<blockquote>Who would dare to confess face-to-face to a girl who obviously looks down on him? - For a guy at least. They lost their gut just from your expression! I keep on trying to guess what those guys were thinking as I respond to Haruhi.</blockquote>

Any ideas on how to rephrase it?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 01:40, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

Here's the original:

　虫でも見るような目つきを前にして重大な―少なくとも本人にとっては―打ち明けごとをする気になれなかっただろう男の気分をトレースしながら一応俺は同意しておいた。

...my rough translation:

I can agree with those guys. Making such an important ― for them, at least ― confession in front of someone who would look at you like you were a worm would probably make anyone feel uneasy.

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 11:15, 28 May 2006 (PDT)

=== At the end I got the second to last seat of the court-facing windowside column. ===

I'd like to reword the sentance above, but I don't have a good idea of what to do. I think "court-facing" and "windowside" both need to go, but the question is, what to replace them with. Ideas?

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 01:40, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

Maybe something like "second-to-last seat next to the window, overlooking the courtyard." Here's the original:

中庭に面した窓際後方二番目

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 03:17, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

I've rewritten this sentance. Thanks for the explanation [[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]]!

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

=== ...released the 50-ton bomb ===

I'm curious about the phrase Kyon uses to describe Haruhi's introduction. He compares it to releasing a 50-ton bomb. That seems strange to me, as 50 tons is tremendously heavy. I dug around a bit and found two possible bombs he could be referring to:

#The first Hydrogen bomb—code named "Ivy Mike" and detonated by the United States in 1952—was an enormous device housed in a 2-story building on Enewetak Atoll in the Marshal Islands (its detonation totally destroyed the island of Elugelab). A large number of sources on the internet say that it weighed 50 tons (though [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_Mike Wikipedia] suggests it was actually around 82 tons).
#The reference could be to a 50 megaton bomb. That is the approximate yield of largest nuclear bomb ever to be detonated (or built). Commonly known as the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba Tsar Bomba], it was built and droped on Novaya Zemlya island in the Arctic Ocean by the USSR in 1961. Its primary purpose was as a Cold War political stunt, since at 8 meters long and weighing 27 metric tons, it was too large to be a practical weapon.

Could somebody check the original book to see if the translation is correct (ie, tons vs megatons)? While it is possible the reference is to Ivy Mike (especially with Japanese society having very high awareness of US nuclear testing in the Pacific), such a large bomb could not ever be "released" from anything. It was a building constructed on an island, not a bomb that could be dropped from a plane, so the usage seems to be a mistake (though it is entirely possible that it is either Kyon or Tanigawa-sensei who made the mistake, rather than the translator).

[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 09:21, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

Funny you should note this... I also felt weird about this line and looked it up. Here's the original:

　頭でひねっていた最低限のセリフを何とか噛まずに言い終え、やるべきことをやったという解放感に包まれながら俺は着席した。替わりに後ろの奴が立ち上がり―ああ、俺は生涯このことを忘れないだろうな―後々語り草となる言葉をのたまった。

Which translates to something like:

After I managed to finish my carefully thought-out, minimal-length introduction without stumbling over my words somewhat, I sat down, tucked in that feeling of relief you get after having done something you had to do. The person behind me stood up for her turn and―ah I probably won't forget this for the rest of my life―said the words that would be the topic of conversation for a long time.

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 12:04, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

I thought about it some more and need some clarification... the original text used 噛 (to bite, chew, gnaw), so it's literally "without chewing my words." I put in "mumbling" for now. Any suggestions?

(Clarified - 噛む also has a slang meaning of saying something incorrectly, or getting a line wrong; updated the above translation accordingly)

--[[User:GDsMDDLFNGR|GDsMDDLFNGR]] 21:42, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

I've rewritten the passage, loosely based on your translation. Thanks!

--[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 13:24, 30 May 2006 (PDT)

== Grammar Corrections ==

A Few minor corrections I thought I'd leave here. I probably would not have caught them if I my English teacher last year hadn't always take off a full point per grammar/spelling mistake.

'''"At the end he/she could only say "I see...then I will just...", and ask themselves..."'''

-Here it is probably fine to leave he/she because it is a translation (showing the victims to be both male and female), but 'he' is the standard for a pronoun with a gender unknown. But, you should change "themselves" to "himself or herself" (or himself/herself to match with your slash usage before. You may also want to use "or" instead of a slash in the future because the slash in this place is non-standard usage and probably would not be used in a book.)

'''"Therefore when I came to school the next day and discovered that instead of tying three ponytails, Haruhi had cut her long and slender hair short, I felt quite depressed".'''

-You need a comma after "therefore" because "when I.... ponytails" is a separate clause and "Therefore" is part of the clause "I felt quite depressed".

'''" But none of it is possible— no aliens, time travelers, or supernatural powers exist in this world. Okay, let's say they do exist. They wouldn't just appear right in front of us humble citizens and say, “Hello, I'm actually an alien.”

"THAT'S WHY!" "'''

- Okay, this part is a bit confusing to me. Does the narrator actually Say the first paragraph above out loud? If so, you need quotes, one before "But" (the one up there is one I added to quote text) and another after "alien."

That's all I found, keep up the great work.