Baka-Tsuki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-25T04:45:11Z

Cruzz: /* "Consortium" -> ? */ How many times will I edit my stupid comment?

== Original text ==

=== Page 161 ===

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

=== Page 162 ===

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。

部室で長門が読書する姿は今やデフオォルトの風景であり、もはやこの部屋と切り離せない固定の置物のようでもあった。

だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

「お前も俺に涼宮のことで何か話はあるんじゃないのか？」

この場には三人しかいない。ハルヒは今週が掃除当番だし朝比奈さんはまた来ていない。

「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

古泉は、昨日図書館から借り出した本に顔を埋めている長門を一瞥する。すべてを知ってるみたいな訳知り口調が気に入らない。

=== Page 163 ===

「場所を変えましょう。涼宮さん出くわすとマズイですから」

古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

「どこまでご存じですか？」

「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」

「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

「まずお前の正体から聞こうか」

宇宙人と未来人には心当たりがあるから、

「実は超能力者でして、などと言うんじゃないだろうな」

「先に言わないで欲しいな」

== Translation notes ==

=== The Blue Bird of Happiness ===

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet, playwright and Nobel laureate Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature.

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal.

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== Haruhi's downer ===

Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the original text: ハルヒのダウナー (''Haruhi no DAUNAA'')

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven" ===

''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?" ===

This is my attempt to render the second clause of that very long sentence into English: 地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか (''chikyuuondanka no sei de nekki ni aterareterun ja nee no ka'')

Unfortunately, I don't think it sounds very good. If someone can come up with a better way to express it, I'd be very happy.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

The more i read that sentence the more im confused.

what is it trying to imply? That similarities of globalwarming to the situation is that globalwarming is NOT the reason for the heat,implying that its just simply Bollocks, B.S, rubbish, etc, not true.
or that its a sarcastic poke at the information people saying that the raising heat isn't responsible due to global warming, Therefore implying that Haruhi non-human-ness is an unspoken obvious?

Or im i just getting more confused? ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:50, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh man i get it! sorry this been really bugging me. :/

Kyon trying to imply that it's not like a controvesion debate, such as global warming.
so in that context you could say:

"It wasn't like i was stating the global warming/hot weather controversive, was I?"

I think that sounds much better!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:27, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

==Translation Issues==

===General===

EDIT: And meanwhile Kinny fixes some of the issues. Oh well, the fact that they got fixed is what matters I guess, it's just that it means I wasted my time doing this.

Just pointing out some things that definitely aren't mere editing issues. There are many more spots where I question the way you've put it in English, but atleast those more or less agree with what was said in the novel.

Correction sentences will be fairly literal. They're mostly meant to give you an idea about what you got wrong.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

'''Hello Cruzz'''

nice to see you helping out, dispite your decline of joining this project (^o^)/

on the other hand you seem to ruffle some of our translators feathers.

^^;

While we have to generally agree with Kinny's points as he has mentioned in the Animesuki novel thread, please continue to help us.

Perhaps you can inform us in the talk page in the future, or even on the [format_guide|Unified Format Guideline] discussion page?

Unfortunately as Thelastguardian mentioned, we must inform him or all major translation contributions before hand.

thanks!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:14, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Shrug, I just don't have any interest in promising to do anything, doesn't mean I won't try to meddle with the project if I find the time. As for ruffling feathers, that's more or less a necessary evil.

I'm not planning on directly editing any of the translations, I'll just post my comments on the respective talk pages. Do I need to get a special permission to do that?

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:43, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My feathers don't ruffle easily, and they're not ruffled now. As for your corrections, I agree with some of them. I don't claim perfection. However, I question the correctness of all your corrections -- specifically, the global warming remark, which I believe you've gotten wrong.

Kinny's edits and your remarks have also moved a couple of the sentences away from what is actually said. Specifically, the passage that now reads (after your correction and Kinny's edit):

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya wasn't ordinary. Has global warming heated their brains so much that they short-circuited?'''

In the book, clearly says that Suzumiya "isn't ''human''", 人間じゃない -- not that she "wasn't ordinary".
It is my opinion that the passage out to read:

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya isn't human.'''

The whole global warming sentence is a mess, but I can't really see any good reason not to let Kinny's version stand, since it more or less projects the same message as the other versions -- that is, that Kyon questions the sanity of all three other ordinary members of the SOS-dan. So let's leave it at that.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Kinny's version has nothing to do with mine, he actually posted his while I was writing this stuff I think. You might also notice that my version also said she wasn't human. As far as I can see there's not much need for interpretation in these sentences.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 13:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

===Haruhi, whom I'd parted with ===
ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

×Haruhi, whom I'd parted with in front of the station, two days previously, twisted her face into a sour look, pouting. Lately, she'd been making this face a lot, and I was still waiting for it to turn back.

○Haruhi twisted her face into a sour look just like the one she had when I parted with her in front of the station two days ago. I had been thinking that lately she had been making more preferrable faces, but now she was back to the way she had been before that again.

===Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl....===
ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

×Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl (I used to be suitable), then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

○Haruhi started glaring at [a point at] an upward angle , I faced forwards, then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

===Thus, as I have described, ...===
だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

×Thus, as I have described, I arrive one step ahead of Koizumi Itsuki.

○So I said this to Koizumi Itsuki who had arrived in the room a step ahead of me.

===Oh, you too? You're the second ...===
「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

×"Oh, you too? You're the second person to approach me about that, you know."

○"Oh, seeing as you're saying "you too", I guess you were already approached by the other two."

===Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria,...===
古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

×Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria, where we found a table outside. Buying coffee at the vending machine midway, we took it with us to the round table, just two guys sitting together, nothing unusual.

○The place Koizumi took me was one of the outdoor tables of the cafeteria. He bought a coffee from a vending machine on the way there and handed it to me. Two guys sitting at a round table like this is what it is, but it can't be helped in this situation.

===Suzumiya is no ordinary person,...===
「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」
「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

×"Suzumiya is no ordinary person, is that about it?"

×"If you want to put it that simply. That's exactly right."

○"Enough to know that Suzumiya is no ordinary person."

○"In that case, explaining will be easy. That's exactly right you see."

===Was this some kind of joke?...===
それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

×Was this some kind of joke? So far, all three of the other three members of the SOS Brigade had suggested that Suzumiya wasn't human. It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?

○"Is this some kind of joke? All three of the SOS-dan members suggesting stuff like Suzumiya not being human, aren't you just suffering from a fever caused by global warming?" /(aren't you just feverish because of global warming)

===I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said.===
「先に言わないで欲しいな」

×"I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said."

○"I'd appreciate it if you didn't say it before me"

== "Consortium" -> ? ==

How about "Brotherhood?" instead? sounds like a smaller group, and not like some multinational government-like group.

Edit: or even "fellowship"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, they use a weird term... 機関 literally means "organ, mechanism, facility, engine". I don't know about that... "Consortium" seems to miss the tone of the word. Another translation used by the fansubbers of the anime is "Organization", which is better, but still off.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and suggest a different term. One that gibes well with the idea that Tanigawa-sensei is a science fiction fan. I think the term he's trying to use is one that was borrowed from Cordwainer Smith, and that the word ought to be: "Instrumentality".

I'm not going to make an edit of the entire chapter, because this obviously needs to be discussed beforehand -- but that's my opinion.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:28, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

"noted, guess we should get this out the way as soon as possible but with some discussion before hand.

after having it clarified, i propose another term for it.

"Agent"

i.e. I'am part of the "Agent". sounds quite good, if i say so myself.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:45, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Well, okay, I guess that works -- but then it should be "The Agency", as "Agent" implies an individual.

One problem I see with this is that "The Agency" is a universally recognised euphemism for the C.I.A.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh...really?

i guess thats a US thing, we have no such thing in the backwards Brit isles.

how about The "System"? ..."Implement" or the "Operation"?

mmm...kinda like the "Operation" ...... you can say it in oublic and people would think your either a doctor or some sort of.....doctor. lol

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My vote is still for "The Instrumentality". Partly because it fits the mechanistic tone of teh original word 機関, and partly because it's such an obvious reference to a classic science fiction master, Cordwainer Smith. I'm convinced that Tanigawa-sensei is making a deliberate literary allusion, just as he has done elsewhere in the book (with "The Fall of Hyperion" and with "The Blue Bird of Happiness").

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:18, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i have no idea why i don't like that word, it just...doesn't sound right.

personally we could of called it the "council" or even the "carbinet", but they have the ring of a government sponsored large group.

Oh well, i just went round in circles just because I don't like that word, so i'll throw my last alternative and leave it at that for others to decide,

"The Encephalon" which means brain, the centre of knowledge, part of the whole. sorta mechanical thing as well.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:40, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Okay, now, I personally like "The Encephalon". It's cool in a geeky sort of way, and it's the sort of thing that I'd name my own secret society, if I had one. And we'd have cool black robes and scantily-attired handmaidens and all that jazz, and a plan to rule the world. And a secret handshake, and decoder rings. And they would rue the day they took us lightly! Muahahahahahhhh!

But... it just doesn't sound right for Koizumi's group's name. Sorry.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:52, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

ok...so we are back to square one.

dammn this..this..suxs..... :/

ok.. how about the "Ministry" which means One that serves as a means; an instrumentality.

or "Puissance" which means power, might.

"Ministry" actually sounds alright, it gives abit of a religous group, but that's ok, as essential thats what they are in regard to Haruhi.

But the word "Puissance" does give it the same shadowry image, on the same level as Illuminati.

I just realise why i don't like your word, its too long, it has whatch-call-it, five thingys. i.e.
in, stru, ment, ta, li, ty. five phonic bits.

while i preferr one that is around four or less. i.e. Mi, ni, stry or pu, i, sance.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:46, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Six syllables, yes. I know, but on the other hand, there is a certain rolling sonorousness to it.

In-stru-men-TA-li-ty.

But I'm serious about my conviction that Tanigawa-sensei is making a literary allusion. I am certain that he's referencing Cordwainer Smith's classic SF stories. It would be perfectly in keeping with the obvious fact that the series, at least to begin with, is an elaborate SF fanfic.

If I'm voted down on this, so it goes -- but I'm still convinced this is how it is.

Brainstorming some possible alternatives: "The Complex", "The Structure"... meh.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 18:05, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, out of the possibilities listed above "Instrumentality" does sound best I think, given we need a mechanical feel to it that also serves as a reference. Make sure to mark this word with a "translator's note/reference" just to point out the connection to Cordwainer Smith's work. Besides, for the odd case where such a long word might sound awkward, we can always refer to it as "Itsuki's group/affiliation" (inserting whatever pronoun is appropriate) though I can't immediately think of such odd cases.

Btw, am I correct in interpreting that, while there are only ~10 Espers in Itsuki's group, that there's likely a bunch of ordinary people too who deal with the Administration and stuff?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:21, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

gaaah. psieye. grrr.

well he says 10 members, that was my impression.

But if that does not include other personals, part of the group who has no powers, then calling it the organisation,"council" even the "agency" or the one original would be more accurate.

I hate waiting for votes, three voters don't count.
need more people.

:p

[[User:Onizuka-gto|GTO-Kun]] 18:32, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

There's nothing weird about 機関. It is a very common word used for decision making bodies and organizations that were created for the fulfilment of specific goals. The suggestions here are the ones that are weird if you ask me. They're also fairly creative, but the original word itself doesn't really imply these sort of things.

I'd just go with a simple and widely accepted translation. "Organization", "Agency", "Council" (in rough order of preference).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 21:28, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-25T04:36:27Z

Cruzz: /* "Consortium" -> ? */

== Original text ==

=== Page 161 ===

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

=== Page 162 ===

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。

部室で長門が読書する姿は今やデフオォルトの風景であり、もはやこの部屋と切り離せない固定の置物のようでもあった。

だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

「お前も俺に涼宮のことで何か話はあるんじゃないのか？」

この場には三人しかいない。ハルヒは今週が掃除当番だし朝比奈さんはまた来ていない。

「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

古泉は、昨日図書館から借り出した本に顔を埋めている長門を一瞥する。すべてを知ってるみたいな訳知り口調が気に入らない。

=== Page 163 ===

「場所を変えましょう。涼宮さん出くわすとマズイですから」

古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

「どこまでご存じですか？」

「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」

「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

「まずお前の正体から聞こうか」

宇宙人と未来人には心当たりがあるから、

「実は超能力者でして、などと言うんじゃないだろうな」

「先に言わないで欲しいな」

== Translation notes ==

=== The Blue Bird of Happiness ===

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet, playwright and Nobel laureate Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature.

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal.

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== Haruhi's downer ===

Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the original text: ハルヒのダウナー (''Haruhi no DAUNAA'')

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven" ===

''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?" ===

This is my attempt to render the second clause of that very long sentence into English: 地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか (''chikyuuondanka no sei de nekki ni aterareterun ja nee no ka'')

Unfortunately, I don't think it sounds very good. If someone can come up with a better way to express it, I'd be very happy.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

The more i read that sentence the more im confused.

what is it trying to imply? That similarities of globalwarming to the situation is that globalwarming is NOT the reason for the heat,implying that its just simply Bollocks, B.S, rubbish, etc, not true.
or that its a sarcastic poke at the information people saying that the raising heat isn't responsible due to global warming, Therefore implying that Haruhi non-human-ness is an unspoken obvious?

Or im i just getting more confused? ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:50, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh man i get it! sorry this been really bugging me. :/

Kyon trying to imply that it's not like a controvesion debate, such as global warming.
so in that context you could say:

"It wasn't like i was stating the global warming/hot weather controversive, was I?"

I think that sounds much better!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:27, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

==Translation Issues==

===General===

EDIT: And meanwhile Kinny fixes some of the issues. Oh well, the fact that they got fixed is what matters I guess, it's just that it means I wasted my time doing this.

Just pointing out some things that definitely aren't mere editing issues. There are many more spots where I question the way you've put it in English, but atleast those more or less agree with what was said in the novel.

Correction sentences will be fairly literal. They're mostly meant to give you an idea about what you got wrong.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

'''Hello Cruzz'''

nice to see you helping out, dispite your decline of joining this project (^o^)/

on the other hand you seem to ruffle some of our translators feathers.

^^;

While we have to generally agree with Kinny's points as he has mentioned in the Animesuki novel thread, please continue to help us.

Perhaps you can inform us in the talk page in the future, or even on the [format_guide|Unified Format Guideline] discussion page?

Unfortunately as Thelastguardian mentioned, we must inform him or all major translation contributions before hand.

thanks!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:14, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Shrug, I just don't have any interest in promising to do anything, doesn't mean I won't try to meddle with the project if I find the time. As for ruffling feathers, that's more or less a necessary evil.

I'm not planning on directly editing any of the translations, I'll just post my comments on the respective talk pages. Do I need to get a special permission to do that?

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:43, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My feathers don't ruffle easily, and they're not ruffled now. As for your corrections, I agree with some of them. I don't claim perfection. However, I question the correctness of all your corrections -- specifically, the global warming remark, which I believe you've gotten wrong.

Kinny's edits and your remarks have also moved a couple of the sentences away from what is actually said. Specifically, the passage that now reads (after your correction and Kinny's edit):

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya wasn't ordinary. Has global warming heated their brains so much that they short-circuited?'''

In the book, clearly says that Suzumiya "isn't ''human''", 人間じゃない -- not that she "wasn't ordinary".
It is my opinion that the passage out to read:

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya isn't human.'''

The whole global warming sentence is a mess, but I can't really see any good reason not to let Kinny's version stand, since it more or less projects the same message as the other versions -- that is, that Kyon questions the sanity of all three other ordinary members of the SOS-dan. So let's leave it at that.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Kinny's version has nothing to do with mine, he actually posted his while I was writing this stuff I think. You might also notice that my version also said she wasn't human. As far as I can see there's not much need for interpretation in these sentences.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 13:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

===Haruhi, whom I'd parted with ===
ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

×Haruhi, whom I'd parted with in front of the station, two days previously, twisted her face into a sour look, pouting. Lately, she'd been making this face a lot, and I was still waiting for it to turn back.

○Haruhi twisted her face into a sour look just like the one she had when I parted with her in front of the station two days ago. I had been thinking that lately she had been making more preferrable faces, but now she was back to the way she had been before that again.

===Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl....===
ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

×Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl (I used to be suitable), then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

○Haruhi started glaring at [a point at] an upward angle , I faced forwards, then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

===Thus, as I have described, ...===
だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

×Thus, as I have described, I arrive one step ahead of Koizumi Itsuki.

○So I said this to Koizumi Itsuki who had arrived in the room a step ahead of me.

===Oh, you too? You're the second ...===
「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

×"Oh, you too? You're the second person to approach me about that, you know."

○"Oh, seeing as you're saying "you too", I guess you were already approached by the other two."

===Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria,...===
古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

×Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria, where we found a table outside. Buying coffee at the vending machine midway, we took it with us to the round table, just two guys sitting together, nothing unusual.

○The place Koizumi took me was one of the outdoor tables of the cafeteria. He bought a coffee from a vending machine on the way there and handed it to me. Two guys sitting at a round table like this is what it is, but it can't be helped in this situation.

===Suzumiya is no ordinary person,...===
「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」
「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

×"Suzumiya is no ordinary person, is that about it?"

×"If you want to put it that simply. That's exactly right."

○"Enough to know that Suzumiya is no ordinary person."

○"In that case, explaining will be easy. That's exactly right you see."

===Was this some kind of joke?...===
それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

×Was this some kind of joke? So far, all three of the other three members of the SOS Brigade had suggested that Suzumiya wasn't human. It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?

○"Is this some kind of joke? All three of the SOS-dan members suggesting stuff like Suzumiya not being human, aren't you just suffering from a fever caused by global warming?" /(aren't you just feverish because of global warming)

===I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said.===
「先に言わないで欲しいな」

×"I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said."

○"I'd appreciate it if you didn't say it before me"

== "Consortium" -> ? ==

How about "Brotherhood?" instead? sounds like a smaller group, and not like some multinational government-like group.

Edit: or even "fellowship"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, they use a weird term... 機関 literally means "organ, mechanism, facility, engine". I don't know about that... "Consortium" seems to miss the tone of the word. Another translation used by the fansubbers of the anime is "Organization", which is better, but still off.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and suggest a different term. One that gibes well with the idea that Tanigawa-sensei is a science fiction fan. I think the term he's trying to use is one that was borrowed from Cordwainer Smith, and that the word ought to be: "Instrumentality".

I'm not going to make an edit of the entire chapter, because this obviously needs to be discussed beforehand -- but that's my opinion.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:28, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

"noted, guess we should get this out the way as soon as possible but with some discussion before hand.

after having it clarified, i propose another term for it.

"Agent"

i.e. I'am part of the "Agent". sounds quite good, if i say so myself.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:45, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Well, okay, I guess that works -- but then it should be "The Agency", as "Agent" implies an individual.

One problem I see with this is that "The Agency" is a universally recognised euphemism for the C.I.A.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh...really?

i guess thats a US thing, we have no such thing in the backwards Brit isles.

how about The "System"? ..."Implement" or the "Operation"?

mmm...kinda like the "Operation" ...... you can say it in oublic and people would think your either a doctor or some sort of.....doctor. lol

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My vote is still for "The Instrumentality". Partly because it fits the mechanistic tone of teh original word 機関, and partly because it's such an obvious reference to a classic science fiction master, Cordwainer Smith. I'm convinced that Tanigawa-sensei is making a deliberate literary allusion, just as he has done elsewhere in the book (with "The Fall of Hyperion" and with "The Blue Bird of Happiness").

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:18, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i have no idea why i don't like that word, it just...doesn't sound right.

personally we could of called it the "council" or even the "carbinet", but they have the ring of a government sponsored large group.

Oh well, i just went round in circles just because I don't like that word, so i'll throw my last alternative and leave it at that for others to decide,

"The Encephalon" which means brain, the centre of knowledge, part of the whole. sorta mechanical thing as well.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:40, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Okay, now, I personally like "The Encephalon". It's cool in a geeky sort of way, and it's the sort of thing that I'd name my own secret society, if I had one. And we'd have cool black robes and scantily-attired handmaidens and all that jazz, and a plan to rule the world. And a secret handshake, and decoder rings. And they would rue the day they took us lightly! Muahahahahahhhh!

But... it just doesn't sound right for Koizumi's group's name. Sorry.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:52, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

ok...so we are back to square one.

dammn this..this..suxs..... :/

ok.. how about the "Ministry" which means One that serves as a means; an instrumentality.

or "Puissance" which means power, might.

"Ministry" actually sounds alright, it gives abit of a religous group, but that's ok, as essential thats what they are in regard to Haruhi.

But the word "Puissance" does give it the same shadowry image, on the same level as Illuminati.

I just realise why i don't like your word, its too long, it has whatch-call-it, five thingys. i.e.
in, stru, ment, ta, li, ty. five phonic bits.

while i preferr one that is around four or less. i.e. Mi, ni, stry or pu, i, sance.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:46, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Six syllables, yes. I know, but on the other hand, there is a certain rolling sonorousness to it.

In-stru-men-TA-li-ty.

But I'm serious about my conviction that Tanigawa-sensei is making a literary allusion. I am certain that he's referencing Cordwainer Smith's classic SF stories. It would be perfectly in keeping with the obvious fact that the series, at least to begin with, is an elaborate SF fanfic.

If I'm voted down on this, so it goes -- but I'm still convinced this is how it is.

Brainstorming some possible alternatives: "The Complex", "The Structure"... meh.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 18:05, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, out of the possibilities listed above "Instrumentality" does sound best I think, given we need a mechanical feel to it that also serves as a reference. Make sure to mark this word with a "translator's note/reference" just to point out the connection to Cordwainer Smith's work. Besides, for the odd case where such a long word might sound awkward, we can always refer to it as "Itsuki's group/affiliation" (inserting whatever pronoun is appropriate) though I can't immediately think of such odd cases.

Btw, am I correct in interpreting that, while there are only ~10 Espers in Itsuki's group, that there's likely a bunch of ordinary people too who deal with the Administration and stuff?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:21, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

gaaah. psieye. grrr.

well he says 10 members, that was my impression.

But if that does not include other personals, part of the group who has no powers, then calling it the organisation,"council" even the "agency" or the one original would be more accurate.

I hate waiting for votes, three voters don't count.
need more people.

:p

[[User:Onizuka-gto|GTO-Kun]] 18:32, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

There's nothing weird about 機関. It is a very common word used for decision making bodies and organizations that were created for the fulfilment of specific goals. The suggestions here are the ones that are weird if you ask me. They're also fairly creative, but the original world itself doesn't really imply these sort of things.

I'd just go with a simple and widely accepted translation. "Organization", "Agency", "Council" (in rough order of preference for me).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 21:28, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-25T04:31:48Z

Cruzz: /* "Consortium" -> ? */

== Original text ==

=== Page 161 ===

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

=== Page 162 ===

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。

部室で長門が読書する姿は今やデフオォルトの風景であり、もはやこの部屋と切り離せない固定の置物のようでもあった。

だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

「お前も俺に涼宮のことで何か話はあるんじゃないのか？」

この場には三人しかいない。ハルヒは今週が掃除当番だし朝比奈さんはまた来ていない。

「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

古泉は、昨日図書館から借り出した本に顔を埋めている長門を一瞥する。すべてを知ってるみたいな訳知り口調が気に入らない。

=== Page 163 ===

「場所を変えましょう。涼宮さん出くわすとマズイですから」

古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

「どこまでご存じですか？」

「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」

「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

「まずお前の正体から聞こうか」

宇宙人と未来人には心当たりがあるから、

「実は超能力者でして、などと言うんじゃないだろうな」

「先に言わないで欲しいな」

== Translation notes ==

=== The Blue Bird of Happiness ===

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet, playwright and Nobel laureate Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature.

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal.

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== Haruhi's downer ===

Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the original text: ハルヒのダウナー (''Haruhi no DAUNAA'')

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven" ===

''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?" ===

This is my attempt to render the second clause of that very long sentence into English: 地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか (''chikyuuondanka no sei de nekki ni aterareterun ja nee no ka'')

Unfortunately, I don't think it sounds very good. If someone can come up with a better way to express it, I'd be very happy.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

The more i read that sentence the more im confused.

what is it trying to imply? That similarities of globalwarming to the situation is that globalwarming is NOT the reason for the heat,implying that its just simply Bollocks, B.S, rubbish, etc, not true.
or that its a sarcastic poke at the information people saying that the raising heat isn't responsible due to global warming, Therefore implying that Haruhi non-human-ness is an unspoken obvious?

Or im i just getting more confused? ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:50, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh man i get it! sorry this been really bugging me. :/

Kyon trying to imply that it's not like a controvesion debate, such as global warming.
so in that context you could say:

"It wasn't like i was stating the global warming/hot weather controversive, was I?"

I think that sounds much better!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:27, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

==Translation Issues==

===General===

EDIT: And meanwhile Kinny fixes some of the issues. Oh well, the fact that they got fixed is what matters I guess, it's just that it means I wasted my time doing this.

Just pointing out some things that definitely aren't mere editing issues. There are many more spots where I question the way you've put it in English, but atleast those more or less agree with what was said in the novel.

Correction sentences will be fairly literal. They're mostly meant to give you an idea about what you got wrong.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

'''Hello Cruzz'''

nice to see you helping out, dispite your decline of joining this project (^o^)/

on the other hand you seem to ruffle some of our translators feathers.

^^;

While we have to generally agree with Kinny's points as he has mentioned in the Animesuki novel thread, please continue to help us.

Perhaps you can inform us in the talk page in the future, or even on the [format_guide|Unified Format Guideline] discussion page?

Unfortunately as Thelastguardian mentioned, we must inform him or all major translation contributions before hand.

thanks!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:14, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Shrug, I just don't have any interest in promising to do anything, doesn't mean I won't try to meddle with the project if I find the time. As for ruffling feathers, that's more or less a necessary evil.

I'm not planning on directly editing any of the translations, I'll just post my comments on the respective talk pages. Do I need to get a special permission to do that?

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:43, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My feathers don't ruffle easily, and they're not ruffled now. As for your corrections, I agree with some of them. I don't claim perfection. However, I question the correctness of all your corrections -- specifically, the global warming remark, which I believe you've gotten wrong.

Kinny's edits and your remarks have also moved a couple of the sentences away from what is actually said. Specifically, the passage that now reads (after your correction and Kinny's edit):

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya wasn't ordinary. Has global warming heated their brains so much that they short-circuited?'''

In the book, clearly says that Suzumiya "isn't ''human''", 人間じゃない -- not that she "wasn't ordinary".
It is my opinion that the passage out to read:

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya isn't human.'''

The whole global warming sentence is a mess, but I can't really see any good reason not to let Kinny's version stand, since it more or less projects the same message as the other versions -- that is, that Kyon questions the sanity of all three other ordinary members of the SOS-dan. So let's leave it at that.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Kinny's version has nothing to do with mine, he actually posted his while I was writing this stuff I think. You might also notice that my version also said she wasn't human. As far as I can see there's not much need for interpretation in these sentences.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 13:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

===Haruhi, whom I'd parted with ===
ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

×Haruhi, whom I'd parted with in front of the station, two days previously, twisted her face into a sour look, pouting. Lately, she'd been making this face a lot, and I was still waiting for it to turn back.

○Haruhi twisted her face into a sour look just like the one she had when I parted with her in front of the station two days ago. I had been thinking that lately she had been making more preferrable faces, but now she was back to the way she had been before that again.

===Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl....===
ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

×Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl (I used to be suitable), then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

○Haruhi started glaring at [a point at] an upward angle , I faced forwards, then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

===Thus, as I have described, ...===
だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

×Thus, as I have described, I arrive one step ahead of Koizumi Itsuki.

○So I said this to Koizumi Itsuki who had arrived in the room a step ahead of me.

===Oh, you too? You're the second ...===
「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

×"Oh, you too? You're the second person to approach me about that, you know."

○"Oh, seeing as you're saying "you too", I guess you were already approached by the other two."

===Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria,...===
古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

×Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria, where we found a table outside. Buying coffee at the vending machine midway, we took it with us to the round table, just two guys sitting together, nothing unusual.

○The place Koizumi took me was one of the outdoor tables of the cafeteria. He bought a coffee from a vending machine on the way there and handed it to me. Two guys sitting at a round table like this is what it is, but it can't be helped in this situation.

===Suzumiya is no ordinary person,...===
「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」
「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

×"Suzumiya is no ordinary person, is that about it?"

×"If you want to put it that simply. That's exactly right."

○"Enough to know that Suzumiya is no ordinary person."

○"In that case, explaining will be easy. That's exactly right you see."

===Was this some kind of joke?...===
それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

×Was this some kind of joke? So far, all three of the other three members of the SOS Brigade had suggested that Suzumiya wasn't human. It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?

○"Is this some kind of joke? All three of the SOS-dan members suggesting stuff like Suzumiya not being human, aren't you just suffering from a fever caused by global warming?" /(aren't you just feverish because of global warming)

===I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said.===
「先に言わないで欲しいな」

×"I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said."

○"I'd appreciate it if you didn't say it before me"

== "Consortium" -> ? ==

How about "Brotherhood?" instead? sounds like a smaller group, and not like some multinational government-like group.

Edit: or even "fellowship"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, they use a weird term... 機関 literally means "organ, mechanism, facility, engine". I don't know about that... "Consortium" seems to miss the tone of the word. Another translation used by the fansubbers of the anime is "Organization", which is better, but still off.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and suggest a different term. One that gibes well with the idea that Tanigawa-sensei is a science fiction fan. I think the term he's trying to use is one that was borrowed from Cordwainer Smith, and that the word ought to be: "Instrumentality".

I'm not going to make an edit of the entire chapter, because this obviously needs to be discussed beforehand -- but that's my opinion.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:28, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

"noted, guess we should get this out the way as soon as possible but with some discussion before hand.

after having it clarified, i propose another term for it.

"Agent"

i.e. I'am part of the "Agent". sounds quite good, if i say so myself.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:45, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Well, okay, I guess that works -- but then it should be "The Agency", as "Agent" implies an individual.

One problem I see with this is that "The Agency" is a universally recognised euphemism for the C.I.A.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh...really?

i guess thats a US thing, we have no such thing in the backwards Brit isles.

how about The "System"? ..."Implement" or the "Operation"?

mmm...kinda like the "Operation" ...... you can say it in oublic and people would think your either a doctor or some sort of.....doctor. lol

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My vote is still for "The Instrumentality". Partly because it fits the mechanistic tone of teh original word 機関, and partly because it's such an obvious reference to a classic science fiction master, Cordwainer Smith. I'm convinced that Tanigawa-sensei is making a deliberate literary allusion, just as he has done elsewhere in the book (with "The Fall of Hyperion" and with "The Blue Bird of Happiness").

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:18, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i have no idea why i don't like that word, it just...doesn't sound right.

personally we could of called it the "council" or even the "carbinet", but they have the ring of a government sponsored large group.

Oh well, i just went round in circles just because I don't like that word, so i'll throw my last alternative and leave it at that for others to decide,

"The Encephalon" which means brain, the centre of knowledge, part of the whole. sorta mechanical thing as well.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:40, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Okay, now, I personally like "The Encephalon". It's cool in a geeky sort of way, and it's the sort of thing that I'd name my own secret society, if I had one. And we'd have cool black robes and scantily-attired handmaidens and all that jazz, and a plan to rule the world. And a secret handshake, and decoder rings. And they would rue the day they took us lightly! Muahahahahahhhh!

But... it just doesn't sound right for Koizumi's group's name. Sorry.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:52, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

ok...so we are back to square one.

dammn this..this..suxs..... :/

ok.. how about the "Ministry" which means One that serves as a means; an instrumentality.

or "Puissance" which means power, might.

"Ministry" actually sounds alright, it gives abit of a religous group, but that's ok, as essential thats what they are in regard to Haruhi.

But the word "Puissance" does give it the same shadowry image, on the same level as Illuminati.

I just realise why i don't like your word, its too long, it has whatch-call-it, five thingys. i.e.
in, stru, ment, ta, li, ty. five phonic bits.

while i preferr one that is around four or less. i.e. Mi, ni, stry or pu, i, sance.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:46, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Six syllables, yes. I know, but on the other hand, there is a certain rolling sonorousness to it.

In-stru-men-TA-li-ty.

But I'm serious about my conviction that Tanigawa-sensei is making a literary allusion. I am certain that he's referencing Cordwainer Smith's classic SF stories. It would be perfectly in keeping with the obvious fact that the series, at least to begin with, is an elaborate SF fanfic.

If I'm voted down on this, so it goes -- but I'm still convinced this is how it is.

Brainstorming some possible alternatives: "The Complex", "The Structure"... meh.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 18:05, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, out of the possibilities listed above "Instrumentality" does sound best I think, given we need a mechanical feel to it that also serves as a reference. Make sure to mark this word with a "translator's note/reference" just to point out the connection to Cordwainer Smith's work. Besides, for the odd case where such a long word might sound awkward, we can always refer to it as "Itsuki's group/affiliation" (inserting whatever pronoun is appropriate) though I can't immediately think of such odd cases.

Btw, am I correct in interpreting that, while there are only ~10 Espers in Itsuki's group, that there's likely a bunch of ordinary people too who deal with the Administration and stuff?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:21, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

gaaah. psieye. grrr.

well he says 10 members, that was my impression.

But if that does not include other personals, part of the group who has no powers, then calling it the organisation,"council" even the "agency" or the one original would be more accurate.

I hate waiting for votes, three voters don't count.
need more people.

:p

[[User:Onizuka-gto|GTO-Kun]] 18:32, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

There's nothing weird about 機関. It is a very common word used for decision making bodies and organizations that were created for the fulfilment of specific goals. The suggestions here are the ones that are weird if you ask me. Creative perhaps, but quite detached from harsh reality.

I'd just go with a simple and widely accepted translation. "Organization" or "Agency".

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 21:28, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-25T04:28:58Z

Cruzz: /* "Consortium" -> ? */

== Original text ==

=== Page 161 ===

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

=== Page 162 ===

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。

部室で長門が読書する姿は今やデフオォルトの風景であり、もはやこの部屋と切り離せない固定の置物のようでもあった。

だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

「お前も俺に涼宮のことで何か話はあるんじゃないのか？」

この場には三人しかいない。ハルヒは今週が掃除当番だし朝比奈さんはまた来ていない。

「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

古泉は、昨日図書館から借り出した本に顔を埋めている長門を一瞥する。すべてを知ってるみたいな訳知り口調が気に入らない。

=== Page 163 ===

「場所を変えましょう。涼宮さん出くわすとマズイですから」

古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

「どこまでご存じですか？」

「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」

「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

「まずお前の正体から聞こうか」

宇宙人と未来人には心当たりがあるから、

「実は超能力者でして、などと言うんじゃないだろうな」

「先に言わないで欲しいな」

== Translation notes ==

=== The Blue Bird of Happiness ===

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet, playwright and Nobel laureate Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature.

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal.

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== Haruhi's downer ===

Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the original text: ハルヒのダウナー (''Haruhi no DAUNAA'')

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven" ===

''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?" ===

This is my attempt to render the second clause of that very long sentence into English: 地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか (''chikyuuondanka no sei de nekki ni aterareterun ja nee no ka'')

Unfortunately, I don't think it sounds very good. If someone can come up with a better way to express it, I'd be very happy.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

The more i read that sentence the more im confused.

what is it trying to imply? That similarities of globalwarming to the situation is that globalwarming is NOT the reason for the heat,implying that its just simply Bollocks, B.S, rubbish, etc, not true.
or that its a sarcastic poke at the information people saying that the raising heat isn't responsible due to global warming, Therefore implying that Haruhi non-human-ness is an unspoken obvious?

Or im i just getting more confused? ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:50, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh man i get it! sorry this been really bugging me. :/

Kyon trying to imply that it's not like a controvesion debate, such as global warming.
so in that context you could say:

"It wasn't like i was stating the global warming/hot weather controversive, was I?"

I think that sounds much better!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:27, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

==Translation Issues==

===General===

EDIT: And meanwhile Kinny fixes some of the issues. Oh well, the fact that they got fixed is what matters I guess, it's just that it means I wasted my time doing this.

Just pointing out some things that definitely aren't mere editing issues. There are many more spots where I question the way you've put it in English, but atleast those more or less agree with what was said in the novel.

Correction sentences will be fairly literal. They're mostly meant to give you an idea about what you got wrong.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

'''Hello Cruzz'''

nice to see you helping out, dispite your decline of joining this project (^o^)/

on the other hand you seem to ruffle some of our translators feathers.

^^;

While we have to generally agree with Kinny's points as he has mentioned in the Animesuki novel thread, please continue to help us.

Perhaps you can inform us in the talk page in the future, or even on the [format_guide|Unified Format Guideline] discussion page?

Unfortunately as Thelastguardian mentioned, we must inform him or all major translation contributions before hand.

thanks!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:14, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Shrug, I just don't have any interest in promising to do anything, doesn't mean I won't try to meddle with the project if I find the time. As for ruffling feathers, that's more or less a necessary evil.

I'm not planning on directly editing any of the translations, I'll just post my comments on the respective talk pages. Do I need to get a special permission to do that?

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:43, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My feathers don't ruffle easily, and they're not ruffled now. As for your corrections, I agree with some of them. I don't claim perfection. However, I question the correctness of all your corrections -- specifically, the global warming remark, which I believe you've gotten wrong.

Kinny's edits and your remarks have also moved a couple of the sentences away from what is actually said. Specifically, the passage that now reads (after your correction and Kinny's edit):

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya wasn't ordinary. Has global warming heated their brains so much that they short-circuited?'''

In the book, clearly says that Suzumiya "isn't ''human''", 人間じゃない -- not that she "wasn't ordinary".
It is my opinion that the passage out to read:

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya isn't human.'''

The whole global warming sentence is a mess, but I can't really see any good reason not to let Kinny's version stand, since it more or less projects the same message as the other versions -- that is, that Kyon questions the sanity of all three other ordinary members of the SOS-dan. So let's leave it at that.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Kinny's version has nothing to do with mine, he actually posted his while I was writing this stuff I think. You might also notice that my version also said she wasn't human. As far as I can see there's not much need for interpretation in these sentences.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 13:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

===Haruhi, whom I'd parted with ===
ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

×Haruhi, whom I'd parted with in front of the station, two days previously, twisted her face into a sour look, pouting. Lately, she'd been making this face a lot, and I was still waiting for it to turn back.

○Haruhi twisted her face into a sour look just like the one she had when I parted with her in front of the station two days ago. I had been thinking that lately she had been making more preferrable faces, but now she was back to the way she had been before that again.

===Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl....===
ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

×Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl (I used to be suitable), then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

○Haruhi started glaring at [a point at] an upward angle , I faced forwards, then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

===Thus, as I have described, ...===
だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

×Thus, as I have described, I arrive one step ahead of Koizumi Itsuki.

○So I said this to Koizumi Itsuki who had arrived in the room a step ahead of me.

===Oh, you too? You're the second ...===
「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

×"Oh, you too? You're the second person to approach me about that, you know."

○"Oh, seeing as you're saying "you too", I guess you were already approached by the other two."

===Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria,...===
古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

×Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria, where we found a table outside. Buying coffee at the vending machine midway, we took it with us to the round table, just two guys sitting together, nothing unusual.

○The place Koizumi took me was one of the outdoor tables of the cafeteria. He bought a coffee from a vending machine on the way there and handed it to me. Two guys sitting at a round table like this is what it is, but it can't be helped in this situation.

===Suzumiya is no ordinary person,...===
「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」
「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

×"Suzumiya is no ordinary person, is that about it?"

×"If you want to put it that simply. That's exactly right."

○"Enough to know that Suzumiya is no ordinary person."

○"In that case, explaining will be easy. That's exactly right you see."

===Was this some kind of joke?...===
それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

×Was this some kind of joke? So far, all three of the other three members of the SOS Brigade had suggested that Suzumiya wasn't human. It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?

○"Is this some kind of joke? All three of the SOS-dan members suggesting stuff like Suzumiya not being human, aren't you just suffering from a fever caused by global warming?" /(aren't you just feverish because of global warming)

===I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said.===
「先に言わないで欲しいな」

×"I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said."

○"I'd appreciate it if you didn't say it before me"

== "Consortium" -> ? ==

How about "Brotherhood?" instead? sounds like a smaller group, and not like some multinational government-like group.

Edit: or even "fellowship"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, they use a weird term... 機関 literally means "organ, mechanism, facility, engine". I don't know about that... "Consortium" seems to miss the tone of the word. Another translation used by the fansubbers of the anime is "Organization", which is better, but still off.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and suggest a different term. One that gibes well with the idea that Tanigawa-sensei is a science fiction fan. I think the term he's trying to use is one that was borrowed from Cordwainer Smith, and that the word ought to be: "Instrumentality".

I'm not going to make an edit of the entire chapter, because this obviously needs to be discussed beforehand -- but that's my opinion.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:28, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

"noted, guess we should get this out the way as soon as possible but with some discussion before hand.

after having it clarified, i propose another term for it.

"Agent"

i.e. I'am part of the "Agent". sounds quite good, if i say so myself.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:45, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Well, okay, I guess that works -- but then it should be "The Agency", as "Agent" implies an individual.

One problem I see with this is that "The Agency" is a universally recognised euphemism for the C.I.A.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

oh...really?

i guess thats a US thing, we have no such thing in the backwards Brit isles.

how about The "System"? ..."Implement" or the "Operation"?

mmm...kinda like the "Operation" ...... you can say it in oublic and people would think your either a doctor or some sort of.....doctor. lol

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My vote is still for "The Instrumentality". Partly because it fits the mechanistic tone of teh original word 機関, and partly because it's such an obvious reference to a classic science fiction master, Cordwainer Smith. I'm convinced that Tanigawa-sensei is making a deliberate literary allusion, just as he has done elsewhere in the book (with "The Fall of Hyperion" and with "The Blue Bird of Happiness").

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 15:18, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i have no idea why i don't like that word, it just...doesn't sound right.

personally we could of called it the "council" or even the "carbinet", but they have the ring of a government sponsored large group.

Oh well, i just went round in circles just because I don't like that word, so i'll throw my last alternative and leave it at that for others to decide,

"The Encephalon" which means brain, the centre of knowledge, part of the whole. sorta mechanical thing as well.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:40, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Okay, now, I personally like "The Encephalon". It's cool in a geeky sort of way, and it's the sort of thing that I'd name my own secret society, if I had one. And we'd have cool black robes and scantily-attired handmaidens and all that jazz, and a plan to rule the world. And a secret handshake, and decoder rings. And they would rue the day they took us lightly! Muahahahahahhhh!

But... it just doesn't sound right for Koizumi's group's name. Sorry.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:52, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

ok...so we are back to square one.

dammn this..this..suxs..... :/

ok.. how about the "Ministry" which means One that serves as a means; an instrumentality.

or "Puissance" which means power, might.

"Ministry" actually sounds alright, it gives abit of a religous group, but that's ok, as essential thats what they are in regard to Haruhi.

But the word "Puissance" does give it the same shadowry image, on the same level as Illuminati.

I just realise why i don't like your word, its too long, it has whatch-call-it, five thingys. i.e.
in, stru, ment, ta, li, ty. five phonic bits.

while i preferr one that is around four or less. i.e. Mi, ni, stry or pu, i, sance.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:46, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Six syllables, yes. I know, but on the other hand, there is a certain rolling sonorousness to it.

In-stru-men-TA-li-ty.

But I'm serious about my conviction that Tanigawa-sensei is making a literary allusion. I am certain that he's referencing Cordwainer Smith's classic SF stories. It would be perfectly in keeping with the obvious fact that the series, at least to begin with, is an elaborate SF fanfic.

If I'm voted down on this, so it goes -- but I'm still convinced this is how it is.

Brainstorming some possible alternatives: "The Complex", "The Structure"... meh.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 18:05, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, out of the possibilities listed above "Instrumentality" does sound best I think, given we need a mechanical feel to it that also serves as a reference. Make sure to mark this word with a "translator's note/reference" just to point out the connection to Cordwainer Smith's work. Besides, for the odd case where such a long word might sound awkward, we can always refer to it as "Itsuki's group/affiliation" (inserting whatever pronoun is appropriate) though I can't immediately think of such odd cases.

Btw, am I correct in interpreting that, while there are only ~10 Espers in Itsuki's group, that there's likely a bunch of ordinary people too who deal with the Administration and stuff?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:21, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

gaaah. psieye. grrr.

well he says 10 members, that was my impression.

But if that does not include other personals, part of the group who has no powers, then calling it the organisation,"council" even the "agency" or the one original would be more accurate.

I hate waiting for votes, three voters don't count.
need more people.

:p

[[User:Onizuka-gto|GTO-Kun]] 18:32, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

There's nothing weird about 機関. It is a very common word used for decision making bodies and organizations that were created for a specific goal. The suggestions here are the ones that are weird if you ask me. Creative, but still weird.

I'd just go with a simple and widely accepted translation. "Organization" or "Agency".

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 21:28, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-23T20:48:29Z

Cruzz: /* General */

== Original text ==

=== Page 161 ===

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

=== Page 162 ===

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。

部室で長門が読書する姿は今やデフオォルトの風景であり、もはやこの部屋と切り離せない固定の置物のようでもあった。

だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

「お前も俺に涼宮のことで何か話はあるんじゃないのか？」

この場には三人しかいない。ハルヒは今週が掃除当番だし朝比奈さんはまた来ていない。

「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

古泉は、昨日図書館から借り出した本に顔を埋めている長門を一瞥する。すべてを知ってるみたいな訳知り口調が気に入らない。

=== Page 163 ===

「場所を変えましょう。涼宮さん出くわすとマズイですから」

古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

「どこまでご存じですか？」

「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」

「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

「まずお前の正体から聞こうか」

宇宙人と未来人には心当たりがあるから、

「実は超能力者でして、などと言うんじゃないだろうな」

「先に言わないで欲しいな」

== Translation notes ==

=== The Blue Bird of Happiness ===

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet, playwright and Nobel laureate Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature.

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal.

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== Haruhi's downer ===

Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the original text: ハルヒのダウナー (''Haruhi no DAUNAA'')

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven" ===

''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?" ===

This is my attempt to render the second clause of that very long sentence into English: 地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか (''chikyuuondanka no sei de nekki ni aterareterun ja nee no ka'')

Unfortunately, I don't think it sounds very good. If someone can come up with a better way to express it, I'd be very happy.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

The more i read that sentence the more im confused.

what is it trying to imply? That similarities of globalwarming to the situation is that globalwarming is NOT the reason for the heat,implying that its just simply Bollocks, B.S, rubbish, etc, not true.
or that its a sarcastic poke at the information people saying that the raising heat isn't responsible due to global warming, Therefore implying that Haruhi non-human-ness is an unspoken obvious?

Or im i just getting more confused? ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:50, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

==Translation Issues==

===General===

EDIT: And meanwhile Kinny fixes some of the issues. Oh well, the fact that they got fixed is what matters I guess, it's just that it means I wasted my time doing this.

Just pointing out some things that definitely aren't mere editing issues. There are many more spots where I question the way you've put it in English, but atleast those more or less agree with what was said in the novel.

Correction sentences will be fairly literal. They're mostly meant to give you an idea about what you got wrong.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

'''Hello Cruzz'''

nice to see you helping out, dispite your decline of joining this project (^o^)/

on the other hand you seem to ruffle some of our translators feathers.

^^;

While we have to generally agree with Kinny's points as he has mentioned in the Animesuki novel thread, please continue to help us.

Perhaps you can inform us in the talk page in the future, or even on the [format_guide|Unified Format Guideline] discussion page?

Unfortunately as Thelastguardian mentioned, we must inform him or all major translation contributions before hand.

thanks!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:14, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Shrug, I just don't have any interest in promising to do anything, doesn't mean I won't try to meddle with the project if I find the time. As for ruffling feathers, that's more or less a necessary evil.

I'm not planning on directly editing any of the translations, I'll just post my comments on the respective talk pages. Do I need to get a special permission to do that?

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:43, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My feathers don't ruffle easily, and they're not ruffled now. As for your corrections, I agree with some of them. I don't claim perfection. However, I question the correctness of all your corrections -- specifically, the global warming remark, which I believe you've gotten wrong.

Kinny's edits and your remarks have also moved a couple of the sentences away from what is actually said. Specifically, the passage that now reads (after your correction and Kinny's edit):

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya wasn't ordinary. Has global warming heated their brains so much that they short-circuited?'''

In the book, clearly says that Suzumiya "isn't ''human''", 人間じゃない -- not that she "wasn't ordinary".
It is my opinion that the passage out to read:

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya isn't human.'''

The whole global warming sentence is a mess, but I can't really see any good reason not to let Kinny's version stand, since it more or less projects the same message as the other versions -- that is, that Kyon questions the sanity of all three other ordinary members of the SOS-dan. So let's leave it at that.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Kinny's version has nothing to do with mine, he actually posted his while I was writing this stuff I think. You might also notice that my version also said she wasn't human. As far as I can see there's not much need for interpretation in these sentences.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 13:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

===Haruhi, whom I'd parted with ===
ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

×Haruhi, whom I'd parted with in front of the station, two days previously, twisted her face into a sour look, pouting. Lately, she'd been making this face a lot, and I was still waiting for it to turn back.

○Haruhi twisted her face into a sour look just like the one she had when I parted with her in front of the station two days ago. I had been thinking that lately she had been making more preferrable faces, but now she was back to the way she had been before that again.

===Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl....===
ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

×Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl (I used to be suitable), then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

○Haruhi started glaring at [a point at] an upward angle , I faced forwards, then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

===Thus, as I have described, ...===
だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

×Thus, as I have described, I arrive one step ahead of Koizumi Itsuki.

○So I said this to Koizumi Itsuki who had arrived in the room a step ahead of me.

===Oh, you too? You're the second ...===
「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

×"Oh, you too? You're the second person to approach me about that, you know."

○"Oh, seeing as you're saying "you too", I guess you were already approached by the other two."

===Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria,...===
古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

×Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria, where we found a table outside. Buying coffee at the vending machine midway, we took it with us to the round table, just two guys sitting together, nothing unusual.

○The place Koizumi took me was one of the outdoor tables of the cafeteria. He bought a coffee from a vending machine on the way there and handed it to me. Two guys sitting at a round table like this is what it is, but it can't be helped in this situation.

===Suzumiya is no ordinary person,...===
「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」
「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

×"Suzumiya is no ordinary person, is that about it?"

×"If you want to put it that simply. That's exactly right."

○"Enough to know that Suzumiya is no ordinary person."

○"In that case, explaining will be easy. That's exactly right you see."

===Was this some kind of joke?...===
それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

×Was this some kind of joke? So far, all three of the other three members of the SOS Brigade had suggested that Suzumiya wasn't human. It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?

○"Is this some kind of joke? All three of the SOS-dan members suggesting stuff like Suzumiya not being human, aren't you just suffering from a fever caused by global warming?" /(aren't you just feverish because of global warming)

===I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said.===
「先に言わないで欲しいな」

×"I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said."

○"I'd appreciate it if you didn't say it before me"

== "Consortium" -> ? ==

How about "Brotherhood?" instead? sounds like a smaller group, and not like some multinational government-like group.

Edit: or even "fellowship"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, they use a weird term... 機関 literally means "organ, mechanism, facility, engine". I don't know about that... "Consortium" seems to miss the tone of the word. Another translation used by the fansubbers of the anime is "Organization", which is better, but still off.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and suggest a different term. One that gibes well with the idea that Tanigawa-sensei is a science fiction fan. I think the term he's trying to use is one that was borrowed from Cordwainer Smith, and that the word ought to be: "Instrumentality".

I'm not going to make an edit of the entire chapter, because this obviously needs to be discussed beforehand -- but that's my opinion.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:28, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-23T20:46:48Z

Cruzz: /* General */

== Original text ==

=== Page 161 ===

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

=== Page 162 ===

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。

部室で長門が読書する姿は今やデフオォルトの風景であり、もはやこの部屋と切り離せない固定の置物のようでもあった。

だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

「お前も俺に涼宮のことで何か話はあるんじゃないのか？」

この場には三人しかいない。ハルヒは今週が掃除当番だし朝比奈さんはまた来ていない。

「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

古泉は、昨日図書館から借り出した本に顔を埋めている長門を一瞥する。すべてを知ってるみたいな訳知り口調が気に入らない。

=== Page 163 ===

「場所を変えましょう。涼宮さん出くわすとマズイですから」

古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

「どこまでご存じですか？」

「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」

「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

「まずお前の正体から聞こうか」

宇宙人と未来人には心当たりがあるから、

「実は超能力者でして、などと言うんじゃないだろうな」

「先に言わないで欲しいな」

== Translation notes ==

=== The Blue Bird of Happiness ===

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet, playwright and Nobel laureate Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature.

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal.

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== Haruhi's downer ===

Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the original text: ハルヒのダウナー (''Haruhi no DAUNAA'')

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven" ===

''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?" ===

This is my attempt to render the second clause of that very long sentence into English: 地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか (''chikyuuondanka no sei de nekki ni aterareterun ja nee no ka'')

Unfortunately, I don't think it sounds very good. If someone can come up with a better way to express it, I'd be very happy.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

The more i read that sentence the more im confused.

what is it trying to imply? That similarities of globalwarming to the situation is that globalwarming is NOT the reason for the heat,implying that its just simply Bollocks, B.S, rubbish, etc, not true.
or that its a sarcastic poke at the information people saying that the raising heat isn't responsible due to global warming, Therefore implying that Haruhi non-human-ness is an unspoken obvious?

Or im i just getting more confused? ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:50, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

==Translation Issues==

===General===

EDIT: And meanwhile Kinny fixes the issues. Oh well, the fact that they got fixed is what matters I guess, it's just that it means I wasted my time doing this.

Just pointing out some things that definitely aren't mere editing issues. There are many more spots where I question the way you've put it in English, but atleast those more or less agree with what was said in the novel.

Correction sentences will be fairly literal. They're mostly meant to give you an idea about what you got wrong.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

'''Hello Cruzz'''

nice to see you helping out, dispite your decline of joining this project (^o^)/

on the other hand you seem to ruffle some of our translators feathers.

^^;

While we have to generally agree with Kinny's points as he has mentioned in the Animesuki novel thread, please continue to help us.

Perhaps you can inform us in the talk page in the future, or even on the [format_guide|Unified Format Guideline] discussion page?

Unfortunately as Thelastguardian mentioned, we must inform him or all major translation contributions before hand.

thanks!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:14, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Shrug, I just don't have any interest in promising to do anything, doesn't mean I won't try to meddle with the project if I find the time. As for ruffling feathers, that's more or less a necessary evil.

I'm not planning on directly editing any of the translations, I'll just post my comments on the respective talk pages. Do I need to get a special permission to do that?

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:43, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My feathers don't ruffle easily, and they're not ruffled now. As for your corrections, I agree with some of them. I don't claim perfection. However, I question the correctness of all your corrections -- specifically, the global warming remark, which I believe you've gotten wrong.

Kinny's edits and your remarks have also moved a couple of the sentences away from what is actually said. Specifically, the passage that now reads (after your correction and Kinny's edit):

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya wasn't ordinary. Has global warming heated their brains so much that they short-circuited?'''

In the book, clearly says that Suzumiya "isn't ''human''", 人間じゃない -- not that she "wasn't ordinary".
It is my opinion that the passage out to read:

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya isn't human.'''

The whole global warming sentence is a mess, but I can't really see any good reason not to let Kinny's version stand, since it more or less projects the same message as the other versions -- that is, that Kyon questions the sanity of all three other ordinary members of the SOS-dan. So let's leave it at that.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Kinny's version has nothing to do with mine, he actually posted his while I was writing this stuff I think. You might also notice that my version also said she wasn't human. As far as I can see there's not much need for interpretation in these sentences.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 13:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

===Haruhi, whom I'd parted with ===
ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

×Haruhi, whom I'd parted with in front of the station, two days previously, twisted her face into a sour look, pouting. Lately, she'd been making this face a lot, and I was still waiting for it to turn back.

○Haruhi twisted her face into a sour look just like the one she had when I parted with her in front of the station two days ago. I had been thinking that lately she had been making more preferrable faces, but now she was back to the way she had been before that again.

===Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl....===
ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

×Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl (I used to be suitable), then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

○Haruhi started glaring at [a point at] an upward angle , I faced forwards, then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

===Thus, as I have described, ...===
だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

×Thus, as I have described, I arrive one step ahead of Koizumi Itsuki.

○So I said this to Koizumi Itsuki who had arrived in the room a step ahead of me.

===Oh, you too? You're the second ...===
「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

×"Oh, you too? You're the second person to approach me about that, you know."

○"Oh, seeing as you're saying "you too", I guess you were already approached by the other two."

===Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria,...===
古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

×Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria, where we found a table outside. Buying coffee at the vending machine midway, we took it with us to the round table, just two guys sitting together, nothing unusual.

○The place Koizumi took me was one of the outdoor tables of the cafeteria. He bought a coffee from a vending machine on the way there and handed it to me. Two guys sitting at a round table like this is what it is, but it can't be helped in this situation.

===Suzumiya is no ordinary person,...===
「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」
「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

×"Suzumiya is no ordinary person, is that about it?"

×"If you want to put it that simply. That's exactly right."

○"Enough to know that Suzumiya is no ordinary person."

○"In that case, explaining will be easy. That's exactly right you see."

===Was this some kind of joke?...===
それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

×Was this some kind of joke? So far, all three of the other three members of the SOS Brigade had suggested that Suzumiya wasn't human. It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?

○"Is this some kind of joke? All three of the SOS-dan members suggesting stuff like Suzumiya not being human, aren't you just suffering from a fever caused by global warming?" /(aren't you just feverish because of global warming)

===I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said.===
「先に言わないで欲しいな」

×"I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said."

○"I'd appreciate it if you didn't say it before me"

== "Consortium" -> ? ==

How about "Brotherhood?" instead? sounds like a smaller group, and not like some multinational government-like group.

Edit: or even "fellowship"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, they use a weird term... 機関 literally means "organ, mechanism, facility, engine". I don't know about that... "Consortium" seems to miss the tone of the word. Another translation used by the fansubbers of the anime is "Organization", which is better, but still off.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and suggest a different term. One that gibes well with the idea that Tanigawa-sensei is a science fiction fan. I think the term he's trying to use is one that was borrowed from Cordwainer Smith, and that the word ought to be: "Instrumentality".

I'm not going to make an edit of the entire chapter, because this obviously needs to be discussed beforehand -- but that's my opinion.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:28, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-23T20:41:06Z

Cruzz: /* General */

== Original text ==

=== Page 161 ===

第五章

週明け、そろそろ梅雨を感じさせる湿気を感じながら登校すると着いた頃には今までにも増
して汗みずくになった。誰かこの坂道にエスカレータを付けるという公約を掲げて選挙に出る
奴はいないものか。将来選挙を得たときにそいつに投票してやってもいい。

教室で下敷きを団扇代わりにして首元から風を送り込んでいたら、珍しく始業の鐘ギリギリ
にハルヒが入ってきた。

どすりと鞄を机に投出し、

「あたしも扇いでよ」

「自分でやれ」

ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最
近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

「あのさ、涼宮。お前『しあわせの青い鳥』って話知ってるか？」

「それが何？」

=== Page 162 ===

「いや、まあ何でもないんだけどな」

「じゃあ訊いてくんな」

ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

この日の授業中、不機嫌オーラを八方に放射するハルヒのダウナーな気配がずっと俺の背中にプレッシャーを与えていた、いや、今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった。

山火事をいち早く察知した野ネズミのように、俺は部室棟へと退避する。

部室で長門が読書する姿は今やデフオォルトの風景であり、もはやこの部屋と切り離せない固定の置物のようでもあった。

だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

「お前も俺に涼宮のことで何か話はあるんじゃないのか？」

この場には三人しかいない。ハルヒは今週が掃除当番だし朝比奈さんはまた来ていない。

「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

古泉は、昨日図書館から借り出した本に顔を埋めている長門を一瞥する。すべてを知ってるみたいな訳知り口調が気に入らない。

=== Page 163 ===

「場所を変えましょう。涼宮さん出くわすとマズイですから」

古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

「どこまでご存じですか？」

「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」

「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

「まずお前の正体から聞こうか」

宇宙人と未来人には心当たりがあるから、

「実は超能力者でして、などと言うんじゃないだろうな」

「先に言わないで欲しいな」

== Translation notes ==

=== The Blue Bird of Happiness ===

First published in 1908 as ''L'Oiseau bleu'', this is a children's play by Belgian poet, playwright and Nobel laureate Maurice Polydore-Marie-Bernard Maeterlinck (1862-1949). Like [[Tanigawa Nagaru]], Maeterlinck first studied law, then turned to literature.

The play contains several elements that are congruent with the story of Suzumiya Haruhi and her merry friends. In the play, two children, a boy and a girl, are sent forth by a fairy, to seek the mystical Blue Bird of Happiness. On their journey, they visit numerous locales symbolic of human thought and emotion, including the Land of Memory, the Palace of Night and the Kingdom of the Future (note how these mirror Haruhi's companions). The children's quest is futile, but returning home, they find that the Blue Bird has been in the cage all along. The moral is that happiness can be found at home, and that the journey is as important as the goal.

No doubt Tanigawa-sensei is making an oblique point about the nature of his story. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== Haruhi's downer ===

Yes, it does, in fact, say "downer" in the original text: ハルヒのダウナー (''Haruhi no DAUNAA'')

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven" ===

''"the chime at the end of the day sounded like the peal of Heaven"'' is my best attempt to render 今日ほど終業のチャイムが福音に聞こえた日はなかった into a form that flows well in English.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

=== "It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?" ===

This is my attempt to render the second clause of that very long sentence into English: 地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか (''chikyuuondanka no sei de nekki ni aterareterun ja nee no ka'')

Unfortunately, I don't think it sounds very good. If someone can come up with a better way to express it, I'd be very happy.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]]

The more i read that sentence the more im confused.

what is it trying to imply? That similarities of globalwarming to the situation is that globalwarming is NOT the reason for the heat,implying that its just simply Bollocks, B.S, rubbish, etc, not true.
or that its a sarcastic poke at the information people saying that the raising heat isn't responsible due to global warming, Therefore implying that Haruhi non-human-ness is an unspoken obvious?

Or im i just getting more confused? ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:50, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

==Translation Issues==

===General===

EDIT: And meanwhile Kinny fixes the issues. Oh well, the fact that they got fixed is what matters I guess, it's just that it means I wasted my time doing this.

Just pointing out some things that definitely aren't mere editing issues. There are many more spots where I question the way you've put it in English, but atleast those more or less agree with what was said in the novel.

Correction sentences will be fairly literal. They're mostly meant to give you an idea about what you got wrong.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

'''Hello Cruzz'''

nice to see you helping out, dispite your decline of joining this project (^o^)/

on the other hand you seem to ruffle some of our translators feathers.

^^;

While we have to generally agree with Kinny's points as he has mentioned in the Animesuki novel thread, please continue to help us.

Perhaps you can inform us in the talk page in the future, or even on the [format_guide|Unified Format Guideline] discussion page?

Unfortunately as Thelastguardian mentioned, we must inform him or all major translation contributions before hand.

thanks!

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:14, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Shrug, I just don't have any interest in promising to do anything, doesn't mean I won't try to meddle with the project if I find the time. As for ruffling feathers, that's more or less a necessary evil.

I'm not planning on directly editing any of the translations, I'll just post my comments on the respective talk pages. Do I need to get a special permission to do that?

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:43, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My feathers don't ruffle easily, and they're not ruffled now. As for your corrections, I agree with some of them. I don't claim perfection. However, I question the correctness of all your corrections -- specifically, the global warming remark, which I believe you've gotten wrong.

Kinny's edits and your remarks have also moved a couple of the sentences away from what is actually said. Specifically, the passage that now reads (after your correction and Kinny's edit):

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya wasn't ordinary. Has global warming heated their brains so much that they short-circuited?'''

In the book, clearly says that Suzumiya "isn't ''human''", 人間じゃない -- not that she "wasn't ordinary".
It is my opinion that the passage out to read:

'''All of the other three members of the SOS Brigade have told me that Suzumiya isn't human.'''

The whole global warming sentence is a mess, but I can't really see any good reason not to let Kinny's version stand, since it more or less projects the same message as the other versions -- that is, that Kyon questions the sanity of all three other ordinary members of the SOS-dan. So let's leave it at that.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Kinny's version has nothing to do with mine, he actually posted his while I was writing this stuff I think. You might also notice that my version also said she wasn't human. As it is, none of this stuff is particularly advanced, so there really isn't much question of the interpretation.

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 13:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

===Haruhi, whom I'd parted with ===
ハルヒは二日前に駅前で別れたときまったく変化のない仏頂面で唇を突き出していた。最近マツな顏になったと思っていたのに、また元に戻っちまった。

×Haruhi, whom I'd parted with in front of the station, two days previously, twisted her face into a sour look, pouting. Lately, she'd been making this face a lot, and I was still waiting for it to turn back.

○Haruhi twisted her face into a sour look just like the one she had when I parted with her in front of the station two days ago. I had been thinking that lately she had been making more preferrable faces, but now she was back to the way she had been before that again.

===Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl....===
ハルヒは斜め上を睨み、俺は前を向き、岡部教師がやって来てホームルームが始まった。

×Haruhi gave me a sideways scowl (I used to be suitable), then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

○Haruhi started glaring at [a point at] an upward angle , I faced forwards, then Okabe-sensei arrived and homeroom class started.

===Thus, as I have described, ...===
だから俺は、一足先に部室に来ていた古泉一樹にこのように言った。

×Thus, as I have described, I arrive one step ahead of Koizumi Itsuki.

○So I said this to Koizumi Itsuki who had arrived in the room a step ahead of me.

===Oh, you too? You're the second ...===
「おや、お前も、と言うからにはすでにお二方からアプローチを受けているようですね」

×"Oh, you too? You're the second person to approach me about that, you know."

○"Oh, seeing as you're saying "you too", I guess you were already approached by the other two."

===Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria,...===
古泉が俺を伴って訪れた先は食堂の屋外テーブルだった。途中で自販機のコーヒーを買って俺に手渡し、丸いテーブルに男二人でつくのもアレだけども、この際仕方がない。

×Koizumi and I went to the cafeteria, where we found a table outside. Buying coffee at the vending machine midway, we took it with us to the round table, just two guys sitting together, nothing unusual.

○The place Koizumi took me was one of the outdoor tables of the cafeteria. He bought a coffee from a vending machine on the way there and handed it to me. Two guys sitting at a round table like this is what it is, but it can't be helped in this situation.

===Suzumiya is no ordinary person,...===
「涼宮がただ者ではないってことくらいか」
「それなら話は簡単です。その通りなのでね」

×"Suzumiya is no ordinary person, is that about it?"

×"If you want to put it that simply. That's exactly right."

○"Enough to know that Suzumiya is no ordinary person."

○"In that case, explaining will be easy. That's exactly right you see."

===Was this some kind of joke?...===
それは何かの冗談なのか？　ＳＯＳ団に揃った三人が三人とも涼宮を人間じゃないみたいなことを言い出すとは、地球温暖化のせいで熱気にあてられてるんじゃねえのか。

×Was this some kind of joke? So far, all three of the other three members of the SOS Brigade had suggested that Suzumiya wasn't human. It wasn't like blaming global warming for the heat, was it?

○"Is this some kind of joke? All three of the SOS-dan members suggesting stuff like Suzumiya not being human, aren't you just suffering from a fever caused by global warming?" /(aren't you just feverish because of global warming)

===I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said.===
「先に言わないで欲しいな」

×"I'd really rather you didn't repeat what you just said."

○"I'd appreciate it if you didn't say it before me"

== "Consortium" -> ? ==

How about "Brotherhood?" instead? sounds like a smaller group, and not like some multinational government-like group.

Edit: or even "fellowship"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, they use a weird term... 機関 literally means "organ, mechanism, facility, engine". I don't know about that... "Consortium" seems to miss the tone of the word. Another translation used by the fansubbers of the anime is "Organization", which is better, but still off.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and suggest a different term. One that gibes well with the idea that Tanigawa-sensei is a science fiction fan. I think the term he's trying to use is one that was borrowed from Cordwainer Smith, and that the word ought to be: "Instrumentality".

I'm not going to make an edit of the entire chapter, because this obviously needs to be discussed beforehand -- but that's my opinion.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:28, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-23T19:07:55Z

Cruzz: /* General */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-23T17:43:26Z

Cruzz: /* General */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-23T16:54:43Z

Cruzz: /* General */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-23T16:42:40Z

Cruzz: /* Suzumiya is no ordinary person,... */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-23T16:32:22Z

Cruzz: /* Translation Issues */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-23T16:31:15Z

Cruzz: /* Translation Issues */

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter5

2006-04-23T16:30:37Z

Cruzz:

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-04-21T17:21:58Z

Cruzz: /* Suzumiya Haruhi's language */

== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ==
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

== Vague/Awkward sounding phrases ==
As I work on fixing up the various grammar, I keep coming across some phrases that sound odd, but which I am unsure what to do with. I hesitate to change them around too much on my own, so I'll list whatever ones I find here for discussion. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ====
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ====
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ====
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What is that girl trying to pull? ====
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. ====
This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ====
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ====
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ====
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

2006-04-21T17:20:47Z

Cruzz: /* Suzumiya Haruhi's language */

== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ==
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

== Vague/Awkward sounding phrases ==
As I work on fixing up the various grammar, I keep coming across some phrases that sound odd, but which I am unsure what to do with. I hesitate to change them around too much on my own, so I'll list whatever ones I find here for discussion. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch ====
I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday. ====
This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less. ====
The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as ''"It's as if to her, guys are..."'' Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What is that girl trying to pull? ====
Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"?
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly. ====
This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever! ====
Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?"
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest. ====
I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

==== Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world. ====
I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too*
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)