- 1 Season 1/2 Volumes Translation Fixing: Feedback Section
- 2 About Template:Toaru Toggle
- 3 Regarding Project Manager Position for Toaru Majutsu no Index
Season 1/2 Volumes Translation Fixing: Feedback Section
Given some of our pm’d discussions last year, my view here probably isn’t too surprising, but I don’t think a lot of the Kanji translations are necessary or relevant to include. You may have gone with the references form compared to the actual furigana template based on those earlier discussions, and it’s probably true that it’s less disruptive to reading this way. But there will still be some amount of disruption just from including references (the bolding also adds a little). The Kanji that I would consider relevant to readers are Illusion Destroyer (just because of Kamijou’s catchphrase “I’ll break/destroy your illusions”) and Church of Necessary Evil (because it is actually descriptive for something that can't be immediately gained from context).--Cthaeh (talk) 19:45, 8 January 2014 (CST)
If you want to take a more democratic approach, we’d really need to solicit some other’s opinions. The only way to include the information without any disruption would be to put it on a separate page (ie. in a table sorted by volume and chapter of appearance), where anyone interested could look up the Kanji for the chapter they just read or were about to read. But the fact you’ve done the work to put it in the page likely means you personally want to include it directly on the page. Also, I almost hate to mention it, but there is also a way that it could be made so that the references or furigana don’t or do appear depending on user preference (technically it would be two different pages, but the actual text for editing and such would only be on a single page). I really don’t like the idea of doing all that work, and I might prefer to leave things as is over that alternative. The one thing I might want that solution for is if you really wanted to put the actual furigana template instead of references. But ideally we would avoid doing a split preference/page solution. --Cthaeh (talk) 19:45, 8 January 2014 (CST)
- I generally prefer to keep the references to explain things people wouldn’t know because they’re not Japanese, rather than they just might not know for other reasons. Therefore I would leave out things like the fact that true perfect memory doesn’t actually exist, since it’s just educating the readers about side-topics, rather than conferring something that was lost in translation. Another example would be the Latin; many readers may not know it, but that is unrelated to not being Japanese. Your new comments aren’t the only places this occurs, there’s quite a few references in later volumes that I would actually prefer to remove for that reason.
- Going back to the topic of perfect memory, I noticed you’ve changed that to “eidetic memory”, which is a proper name for the actual ability that occurs in the real world. This is an issue that I can’t really speak conclusively to without being a translator, but the way Index’s condition is described seems to exceed real-world eidetic memory. If the Japanese phrased used in the original isn’t the typical word for eidetic memory, then I might consider “perfect memory” to be a better translation because it doesn’t actually correspond to a real world phenomenon. Though this is all me guessing at the translation (based on your comment on Perfect Memorization Ability).
- I don’t think adding in Index’s magic declaration is appropriate if it’s not the novel. The English novel readers won’t know it, but Kamichi didn’t consider it important enough to include in the novels so that’s fine. If you want to make it available to BT readers, then my preference would be to create a page for the Subete Guidebook translation.
- If Kamijou uses the word for police instead of “Anti-Skill”, then I think that should remain “police”. There was also an instance of ‘police’ to ‘Anti-Skill’ in c2 that I assume is the similar situation. (Also, if those were to remain as Anti-Skill, then I don’t think it is typically referred to as “the Anti-Skill”, so I’d say you’d remove ‘the’ from both those instances, but my primary opinion is that they be changed back to police).
- I don’t think the romanji/pronunciations for magician and sorcerer are relevant information to include in the references, since that information isn’t relevant for reading the English language translation.
- I’ll just note that when I did my edits I used the upper case of Magic God, even though it went against my initial plans and general policy of matching js06’s lower case (I did that because nearly all but a couple of instances at the time were already upper case). At the time I did my edits, you commented in favor of upper case, so I was just a little surprised you switched to lower case here. I still support matching js06’s usage of lower case even though I didn’t do it, so I’m not complaining, but I was just a little surprised you did.
- Lema vs Lama. Not commenting on the accuracy, just an fyi that there are 3 instances later in the series that should also be changed when you get to them.
Thanks for the feedback Cthaeh.
Furigana/Kanji: I am in agreement that the whole furigana/kanji section needs revising. I think js06 would probably want to shrink the section as well. I know for sure that there are definite candidates for removal in the list. But, as you have already said, we should take a more democratic approach and wait for more people to comment.
Perfect vs Eidetic(Photographic): This is an interesting case. The terms are noticably different in Japanese. But the way that Index's ability is described and used in the series is the same for both definitions. Here is the defining scenario: A person with a very good memory will be able to view a never before seen text and then recite it word for word relatively easily. However, he will not be able to recite it backwards easily and after time he will have trouble remembering the text. A person with eidetic memory will be able to recite it backwards easily and not forget it. This is exactly what Index does in Volume 7 when trying to decode the Book of the Law. Unless there is some important distinction between Perfect Memory and Eidetic memory, I think the changes are justified.
Use of References + Specifc Example: It is my opinion that the notes should not be restricted to Japanese language quirks only but also extra information that provide context for the scenario. Though we need more feedback on this... In the specific case of perfect/eidetic memory, I personally found that knowing that there haven't been any verfied cases of eidetic memory greatly changed my understandings and opinions on the ways the characters acted in the novel. This only happened recently.
Dedicatus545: Strangely enough, Index does give her magic declaration in the exact same spot in the anime adaptation. Even though it is extra information, I believe in this case it is important enough to add in.
Police vs. Anti-Skill: js06 finds it suprising that Kamachi uses the term police here; as if he hadn't even thought of the term Anti-Skill until later. Strangely, the term Anti-Skill is given earlier in the chapter. I might have to double check with js06 to see if that term is police as well. In the end it comes down to this: Do we change something that we most definitely know is an error on the author's part or do we keep the error in? My position on this is to correct the error and make a translation note of it, as I did with Limen/Ars Magna in Chapter 2. Unless police is an informal name for Anti-Skill...
Magician/Sorcerer Pronounciation: OK. In hindsight, I think I will remove that.
Magic God Capitalisation: I brushed up on capitalization rules and had a change of heart.
Lama vs Lema: After researching the language used and viewing the orignal Japanese of the term, I am certain that Lema is correct. Unless someone beats me to it, I can change those whenever I get up to it.
Kanji/Furigana: I'm a bit divided on this. On one hand, I think having the Kanji for all the Furigana terms would be a nice thing to see. On the other hand, I'm not really keen on having it like a reference on each page. I do think the current way is far, far better than that Furigana thing BT has that tries to mimic the Japanese text. The only issue I see is that there are a lot of reference notes, which can break up the flow of reading. I like the idea of only having the most relevant Kanji terms in the references on the page, and then creating a new separate page where every term can be listed by volume. That way, users can get relevant info while reading with only a minimum amount of disruptions, and if they are interested enough, they can visit the page for more in-depth information.
As for mistakes by Kamachi, like police/Anti-Skill, I like the idea of changing it and adding a reference about it, but I think it should only be done if we are absolutely sure it's a mistake. I feel like both Anti-Skill and Limen Magna are good changes.
On a minor note, are you sure "century" should be capitalized? Doing a quick Google search shows that Chicago Style recommends it be lowercase.Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. If you are going to change any mistakes that Kamachi made, I'd suggest taking a look at the narrative text for how many people Academy City has. In volumes 1-6, the translation says that Academy City is consisted of 2.3 million students. In all later volumes, it is changed to 2.3 million people, with 80% of them students. I can't say if the translation for volumes 2-6 is accurate, but Js06 checked it a while back and confirmed that the Japanese text says 2.3 million students in volume 1, and says 2.3 million people in volume 12. Ultranova17 (talk) 22:58, 24 February 2014 (CST)
Thank you Ultranova17 for your feedback.
Century Capitalization: As I have learnt and checked, century is capitalized if the word is used like a name as in the 4th Century.
Feedback on correcting potential author mistakes: I agree entirely with what you say.
Kanji/Furigana: I think that in these earlier volumes there will be a lot of references. However, later volumes probably won't have as much. For example, I don't think that NT Volume 9 has any words that would need it. Its really only for the first use of the word in the series. I still feel like hearing js06's opinion on this but only after Volume 2 gets a facelift (which I suspect will take quite a while)
It doesn't seem that there are people who actually care enough about the edits to give feedback. Since I don't want to make these changes permanent without some more feedback (no, 1 for and 1 against isn't enough), and said feedback isn't coming, I might as well just let js06 have the final word; after all, his preferences should hold more meaning than a mere editor.--OH&S (talk) 04:18, 9 February 2014 (CST)
About Template:Toaru Toggle
It seems like you're the creator of the template:Toaru Toggle so I have a question for you. Can I make my own 'template' (it won't be exactly a template but it isn't very important I think...) but largely based on yours, for the main page of the Date A Live project? I did here what I'd like to do: http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Vallor_-_Tests
Thanks in advance and have a nice day.
I suppose the time has finally come to have a proper discussion about the use of templates similar to the ones that I have made for Toaru Majutsu no Index. I always feared that the edits I made for the sole sake of the Index Page would begin to spread to the other Baka Tsuki (BT) pages and I have seen it slowly beginning to occur. This troubles me to say the least. I don't believe that my edits are efficient enough for widespread use on multiple BT pages; yet people have taken my code regardless and still used it for pages I felt really didn't need it (I'm talking about the Owari no Chronicle page but someone with common sense changed it back).
Vallor, since you actually bothered to politely ask me for use of the code I will in turn treat you kindly and explain my position and opinions about widespread use of the code used on the Toaru Majutsu no Index. I am aware of the efforts to edit the Date A Live project page to look similar to the Index Page. I appreciate your courtesy so I will show some as well.
First let me say this: I, in no way, have ownership of any of the lines of code used on the Index page. This means that you can use the code regardless of how I feel about. BT is a community website and this is an inevitability of it. If you use the code after reading all of this, I promise not to start any editing wars; I don't have the energy to do that. I do however, have a responsibility to inform others about the use of the code as I was the first to introduce it to this site.
I guess I'll start by explaining what the purpose of the edits were.WHY
Toaru Majutsu no Index is the biggest translation project on BT that is currently up to date and is certainly one of the most popular ones. There are definitely others with more untranslated volumes released. But with about 40 novels worth of translated material and almost 70 lines in the Table of Contents alone, it is the project that takes up the most space on BT. Before the edits were made, the Index Page was like almost every other one; Just one long list of Volumes and Chapters with no novel covers. Its no surprise that the page became the longest to scroll down on BT (about 4 times longer than Date A Live is currently). To make matters worse, the light novel author Kamachi Kazuma writes LNs at quite a fast pace. Thus with every new LN, the page became longer and longer. Once it became unreasonably long I consulted the Page Supervisor in making edits to condense the page so that it became easier to view.
In other words, regardless of how the code visually looks or functions, the whole purpose of the code was to condense a really long page. In that sense, it only makes sense for the Index Page to be the sole page to have these kinds of edits. Now I'll talk about the specifics of the edits I made.
Wikitables were being used on various pages in BT even before I became a user here so I thought that it was a nice and simple solution to help condense the page. Custom toggles and the like are purely aesthetic so I won't comment on them even though I also introduced them to BT. After consulting the supervisor, he suggested that the first series be split into wikitables by anime season. This made sense for Index page as the anime is the jumping off point for entering the LNs. I also split the othe sections into appropriately sized wikitables. I could split the entire translated novel material so neatly because of the way the story progressed and the groups of stories were already well defined. The tables wee also appropriately sized (about 6-8 novels in each section). After getting feedback from users, I realised that many users navigated with the Table of Contents beforehand so I had left the tables open on load so that the ToC links would work. I also added links to the ToC in each section in case one wanted to go back to it.
In other words, the reason why wikitables were so effective for the Index page was because the material could be easily grouped into similar sized groups from the very beginning. The ToC links only made sense because users navigated the page using it beforehand. Looking at it like this, no other page on BT would find these edits useful. The page has to have a lot of material, be up to date, have its material be easily grouped (appropriately sized), and not be excessive with the number of wikitables used. The Index page is the ONLY page that satisfies all of these conditions. The edits were successful for the page as the page became more than 5 times smaller in length when fully condensed compared to when all the tables are open. Once NT Volume 10 is translated, I will put NT8 - 10 in its own wikitable as 3-part story arcs are special even within Index like the WW3 arc.
Here are some rough guidelines for use (whether you care about them or not)
- Not suitable for projects that are not up to date with translations. There is no reason to condense the page.
- Not suitable for projects that have a small number of volumes released (less than 20) regardless of whether they are up to date or not. There is no reason to condense the page.
- Better suited for projects which can group their novels into moderately sized (3-8) groups. Wikitables should not be used for 1 or 2 volumes as the page then becomes cluttered with unnecessary wikitables.
- The code should not be directly copied from the Index page but should instead be adapted for use specifically for the page in question. The code for the Index page only makes sense for the Index franchise. I will blast anyone who blatantly copies the code.
- If edits are used for smaller projects regardless of the first 2 points, remove the 'Return to ToC' links as they are unneeded for pages of small length.
- Though it probably doesn't matter, some acknowledgement that the code was adapted from the Index page would make me feel a lot better.
- Use of custom toggles for wikitables by itself is fine (eg. Antimagic Academy Page)
- Always implement the edits with permission from the page supervisor or administrator.
- CAUTION: Implement the edits during a cool off period (about a month before a new novel is released). There have been reports that the use of wikitable may initially affect whether or not the novels show up properly on the Bakareader EX app. I don't know the exact reason why but you should allow time for the problem to be resolved.
Pages I think are appropriate for similar edits if they were fully translated: Chrome Shelled Regios, Densetsu no Yuusha no Densetsu, Maria-sama ga Miteru, MA Series, Monogatari Series, Moonlight Sculptor, Rental Magica, Shakugan no Shana, Zero no Tsukaima and possibly Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon and High School DxD when enough volumes are released.
A CRITIQUE FOR VALLOR: DATE A LIVE
- + I liked how you adapted the code specifically for the Date A Live page. Specifically the Master Toggle and choice of colours.
- + I liked how you acknowledged where you adapted the code from. No one asked you to do that. I was impressed by your courtesy.
- - I didn't like how single volumes were given their own wikitable. Even if I am lenient about 2-part story arcs, I can't agree with its use for single volume story arcs..
- - I didn't like the fact that every single side story was given its own wikitable. Along with the previous point, excessive use of wikitables is not advised because it looks cluttered. This goes back to the first 3 guidelines. These edits are not appropriate for the Date A Live page. You could at least group all the side stories into one wikitable.
- - 'Return to ToC' links should be removed. They are not approriate for the Date A Live page.
- Suggestion: Do something similar to the Index page and group novels by anime seasons. Put novels 1-4 in a table titled Season 1 Novels, put novels 5-7 in a table titled Season 2 Novels, Put Novels 8-9(+10) in table with a title of your own choosing, Put the side stories into one table. Then modify your Master Toggle and remove any Back to Contents links. This way there will only be 4 wikitables to deal with.
Again its entirely up to you whether you go ahead with the edits. Just keep the guidelines and feedback in your mind while doing so. If possible, have whoever originally wanted to edit the Date A Live page look at this talk page. Remember to spread the word about the guidelines as well.
Such a loooooong answer! ^^
First, thank you for taking the time to reply me. I'm fully aware that your template is not adapted to 'little' pages like the Date A Live's, but someone asked me if I could reduce the size of the DAL page, advised me to see the Toaru page and I liked the way you have used so much that I came to ask you the right to make a quite similar thing right after. Excuse me if I don't talk about all the bunch of things you said, I don't have very much to say except I'm agree with most of them.
I'll comment your remarks now (in the same order):
+ Thank you.
+ I'm not agree. I mean, I would feel very bad if I had just copied your code and changed only 2-3 things here and there. More, I would feel very angry if someone did that with one of my creations. You spent (a long) time (surely) on this work, and it's nothing but a theft to copy it and say 'Yeah, I'm the creator of this'. I don't think like that and that's why I came to ask you before do any change in the DAL page, and why I put your name. Be sure that I'll write your handle (and not only in the commentaries) clearly. ;) (By the way, since I began to (largely) be inspired by your work, I always said that I don't want thanks; they are for you)
- Yeah, I know... Because of the small length of the page, the only possibilities we had was to sort the volumes:
- like that (1-2 volumes an arc)
- like the anime's scheme (4-5 volumes an arc)
As we had some troubles with illogical color arrangements, we decided to do the way you can see right now.
- I think there are too many side stories to gather them under a single banner. (I always wanted to say that. :D)
- They have been deleted two days ago. Or yesterday, depending on your location...
Whatever my decision, if I decide to put the simili-template (that I'll try to make better) on the DAL page, you'll be the first one who will be informed of it, in the event of you're agree I use it of course.
Maybe we we'll see each other again!
(PS: I might have made some mistakes. I'm not very comfortable with long English written expressions, sorry.)
Hello, I am the one that proposed the clean-up of the Date A Live Wiki page.
First of all, you have a good point here, DAL is not as long as Index, so it may not be worth of it, but I still want to try implement this new system, first because I liked it, and liked how it works(Found lot easier than the normal way), secondly because it really does reduce the size of the page, that is my complain now.
Second, DAL have a page that is not long enough, for now, but we have already 15 volumes(Counting SS) and we will be getting 16th this month, and maybe even reaching 18~20 volumes this year depending on how the author wake up every morning. That means that soon enough we will be getting bigger, so will hurt anyone if we implement it? (If you say that we can't we won't lol)
Third, I thought that books should be organized as books, not as anime seasons, but after reading what you said, I realized that what I really wanted to implement on the first time I typed that messages in the forum, I think now that organizing in anime seasons is not as bad as I thought before.
Fourth, I know there are pages more suited to receive a code similar to yours on their page, but well, I think this way, (I don't want to sound like a douch but) every page has a supervisor and an admin(Except for DAL), and if they don't say anything is because they are satisfied with the page how it is now, and as DAL doesn't have any responsible staff, I felt like if it was bothering me, I should act, and what was bothering me was that the page was growing a big mess, the implementation of the code is a consequence of the clean-up.
Well, I hope that you understand what I said, and I didn't mess up in what I wrote(Just woke up).
A RESPONSE FOR 12BRAIAN: SEIKOKU NO DRAGONAR
Hello! I want to know if i can use your 'template' for the project Seikoku no Ryuu Kishi? I know this project is very poor and has few volumes, but i want to look this 'much more beautiful" like Date a Live. I make a test, if you want to view: Click
In short, NO.
Date A Live may have been able to get away with it due to its popularity but I cannot extend this compromise to Seikoku no Dragonar. (I suggest you read through the above content.)
For more specific reasons:
- Only 5 out of 14 novels have been translated. Project needs to be completely translated or close to it to be considered.
- It only has 14 novels. Project needs to have close to 20 novels along with the above point to be considered.
The project just doesn't need it right now.
As for your test layout:
- While it is an interesting and different layout, I can't say it's a good one. Stick to the layout that is already used throughout Baka-Tsuki.
- Single volume wikitables are no good. Indicators for those tables are even more annoying.
- The choice of the specific colours for the tables makes sense for each individual volume, but when put together is annoying to look at.
I understand the temptation to make your favourite project stand out in Baka-Tsuki. But my template wasn't designed to do that; it was designed to save space first and look pretty afterwards. Truth be told, I have problems with the way Date A Live has modified their page, but as I've already said, its popularity makes me turn a blind eye. Dragonar may get popular due to its anime and manga increasing attention to its source material. Until then keep things plain and simple. The ideal application of my template is in the Toaru Majutsu no Index page. But it is still plain and simple. --OH&S (talk) 02:51, 19 April 2014 (CDT)
Any future requests about the use of the toggle may be placed here.
Regarding Project Manager Position for Toaru Majutsu no Index
Project managers are officially supposed to have the absolute control over the project and the guidelines. In this case, I think js06 would be the one best fit to have that level of control, but I expect he doesn't want that role. I think there are advantages to having someone's name there in terms of coordinating or providing a point of contact for new people, so I'm not opposed to having it filled in. But I would still like for significant changes to be run by js06 and/or discussed among the few users active on the project (as you have already been doing), and to refrain from giving absolute authority to any single person. Sorry to raise such a tedious issue, I just wanted to see whether or not we agreed (in this special case, other active contributors have an equal voice to you, project manager; and us all deferring to js06 when his opinion is available) now rather than it coming up in the future. --Cthaeh (talk) 19:45, 6 April 2014 (CDT)With regards to how to determine active contributors, I tend to not put much stock in the editor lists, since they are typically bloated with inactive users. I think the best measure is probably just whoever responds when a change is made or proposed. In theory, truly active contributors would notice the change/proposal themselves, though alerting anyone known to be interested is probably a reasonable step as well. Another approach could be to update the list with any obvious additions (you, me, ultranova) and categorize everyone not obvious as inactive, and then anyone active enough to notice and care can move themselves back to active. Changing topics to the character page, one of my reasons behind opposing it (and some other things in general) is I don't like including or mixing fan-created content/commentary with the translation of the original material. Another reason is just to avoid cluttering the main page any further. I'm bringing my views up again because it didn't occur to me last time that it could be a link to a separate page (not transclusion), which would lessen its impact on the clutter of the project page and also mitigate my first reason by providing a little more 'distance' between it and the actual translation. My reasons against it would still remain, so I would still be opposed as a general rule, but it would at least be a more palatable result/compromise. --Cthaeh (talk) 20:27, 7 April 2014 (CDT)