"Then who is the tomcat?"

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Nutcase
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"Then who is the tomcat?"

Post by Nutcase »

This is an interesting line from a central scene in Charmed at First Sight LOVER:
"Indeed, I'm counting on you this time. Just trying to prepare for the SOS Brigade's end of year snow mountain field trip is enough to keep me busy. Besides, you could still mess around with Suzumiya-san to reduce stress. Unfortunately, I do not have such a luxury."

"Then who's the tomcat?"

Yet, the beautiful smile on Koizumi's face became twisted,

"Don't you think it's about time that I take off this harmless looking mask and change this image that I don't even know when I created it for myself? It is after all very tiring trying to talk courteously to a classmate all the time."
There are two ways to take Kyon's line, To paraphrase:

"Aren't you a tomcat?"
or
"Are you some tomcat's girlfriend?"

My own views on this question are perhaps skewed by an overly realistic and detailed appreciation of cat psychology. Suppressing that as best I can, I see solid rationales for both interpretations; quite possibly the author fully intended the ambivalence.

What's your take?
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Smidge204
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Post by Smidge204 »

My opinion on this is documented here and here.


Edit: I'm still not sure what problem you have with Kyon taking a verbal stab at Koizumi. Kyon definately doesn't like him, and Koizumi's reaction hints that Kyon hit a little close to home with his remark.
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Nutcase
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Post by Nutcase »

I don't reject your interpretation. However, I do set it next to several caveats.

First and foremost, the author generally steers all the characters away from commenting on, much less prying into, their personal lives. The main point being to keep the stage uncluttered. It's not an iron rule, but even oblique references to parents, individual teachers, etc. are kept to a minimum.

Beyond this general consideration, valid for all characters, Kyon is himself a polite, considerate person, respectful of personal boundaries. Shamisen, an actual tomcat, prefers to hang wih him. I can't reference the exact words, but Ben Franklin once observed that, " a man who can make friends with strange cats will have good fortune in life." Nagato, the strangest cat of all, is his friend. The sensitivity, appreciation of nuance and reflexive respect for the boundaries of others, these are qualities that bring a man good fortune due to how they temper his interactions with other men. The cat thing is just a flag.

Kyon's edginess with Koizumi is connected to Koizumi not being accessible for friendship. This is my view. Kyon isn't himself a mere tomcat, incapable of tolerating other males, the problem isn't that simple.

Earlier in the same scene, Kyon feels some jealousy about Koizumi touching Mikuru. On a tomcat level, Kyon recognizes Koizumi as a rival, quite possibly "better" than him on that level. I think the jealousy regarding Mikuru is a cover for deeper insecurity about Haruhi. What stops Koizumi from taking her? Koizumi's hypothetical tomcat boyfriend? Really?

Finally I reflect back on this earlier scene:
I stared at the sleeping face of Shamisen who had wrapped himself in a bundle on my bed, while indulging in a sense of warmth. While wondering deeply where that warm feeling came from, I might as well try and figure out where the division between love and lust begins and ends. At that moment a thought sparked in my head that cried out That's it!...
Kyon doesn't hold lust cut off from love in high regard.

This is all just interesting stuff to consider.

Nutcase
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Smidge204
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Post by Smidge204 »

It is difficult to pry into the character's personal lives because the story is told only from Kyon's recollection. In this format, it is essentially impossible to have the reader "follow another character for a day" to gain that kind of insight. If Kyon isn't there in person, it effectively doesn't happen at all. I believe this is the reason we don't see more personal moments for the characters, rather than "keeping the stage uncluttered" (and there are major Moe points to be scored by writing stories centered exclusively on the other characters).

Note that this Kyon-centered narrative is only broken in Episode 9 of the anime, which was an original and not based on the novel.

Kyon is mostly polite and considerate outwardly, but he is far from a saint. He's constantly reaching his limit with Haruhi (Fist-in-the-air ready to punch her at one point) and often refers to Taniguchi and Kunikida as "idiots" and "useless". He hates Koizumi because he's a smarmy git who always comes off with a stuffy intellectual facade. I really don't think the resentment is from Koizumi being too distant - it's because he just can't trust him. For example,
Spoiler! :
"Don't you think it's about time that I take off this harmless looking mask and change this image that I don't even know when I created it for myself? It is after all very tiring trying to talk courteously to a classmate all the time."

If you feel so tired, then stop it already. I completely didn't feel like controlling his expression.

"That won't do. My present image fits perfectly with how Suzumiya-san would imagine me to be. I am quite an expert in understanding her mental conditions, after all,"

Koizumi sighed in an exaggerated way,

"On just this basis alone, I feel very envious of Asahina-san. She doesn't even need to pretend, she only needs to be herself,"

"Didn't you once say Asahina-san could be making up this appearance of hers as well?"

"Oh, did you actually believe what I said? If I can win your trust, then my hard work may have produced some fruit after all."

Just as pretentious as ever. It's nearly a year already, and his flamboyant way of speech still hasn't changed a bit. Even Nagato's heart has gone through some changes, but you're still as fake as ever.
Conversations like that don't seem to inspire longing for friendship. I'm amazed Kyon didn't consider pushing him out the window :wink:

Overall, In think you are just getting hung up on the word "tomcat" and trying to read into it far too much. The author uses the word once and it seems you're trying to write a whole essay on it...

The rest of this post actually seems to be a bit off-topic, so I'm going to spoiler-tag it.
Spoiler! :
I think the jealousy regarding Mikuru is a cover for deeper insecurity about Haruhi. What stops Koizumi from taking her? Koizumi's hypothetical tomcat boyfriend? Really?
It is entirely possible that part of Kyon's resentment is jealousy (I suppose that's only natural), but I think the three biggest reasons Koizumi keeps his distance from Haruhi are, in order:

1) Haruhi has already chosen Kyon, and that relationship needs to be maintained to keep Haruhi "stable."

2) Koizumi genuinely views Haruhi as a God. (...and you just don't try to boink God, do you?)

3) There is some pretty good evidence that Koizumi may be playing for the other team, or at least he's willing to go either way. We can't say for sure if he has any romantic interests in anybody.
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Nutcase
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Post by Nutcase »

"Hung up..."

Like Koizumi, perhaps I'm just being pretentious and annoying, offering a little game for light entertainment. The play's the thing.

The narrative perspective of Kyon does limit the view of other character's personal lives. However, I suspect he knows more than he tells us.

In my view, Kyon calling Koizumi a tomcat is a barb, or at least a prickle, from Kyon's perspective. To a true human tomcat, it might seem a complement. The remark apparently stings Koizumi. Perhaps behind his mask he is also a romantic idealist, prevented by duty from taking his mask off. So he says, at least. Who can trust such an annoying, pretentious git?

One has to take in a wider view to address this sort of question. Kyon is coming to understand this.

Nutcase
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Nutcase
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Post by Nutcase »

Let me further respond to your remarks, in particular your observations about Kyon's non-saintliness, with a special focus on that moment when he almost hits Haruhi. Who is hitting Mikuru...and it's Koizumi who checks him...

Kyon certainly isn't a saint, he's a hero. Almost swinging on the demonic Haruhi shows him as chivalrous. Insofar as it shows he has the courage to throw down the gauntlet, it's relevant. Insofar as Koisumi has given a hero-not-a-saint no legitimate basis for throwing down, it's also relevant. In fact, Koisumi has been a crucial, reliable ally.

Of course Kyon is also an insecure teenager. Which is why I'm inclined to take the "tomcat" remark as both ambiguous and ambivalent, with the overly personal insult side being a kind of youthful error in judgment/testing of boundaries.

On the distant vs. not trustworthy distinction, I think we mean the same thing. One can trust Koizumi as far as one can divine his objectives. I'd keep an eye on him, in Kyon's place, but Kyon depends on him too. Never throw anybody off when you're on the same rope. Applies to both of them.

Nutcase
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Smidge204
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Post by Smidge204 »

To be blunt, I think you're being more than a little presumptuous.

There is nothing chivalrous about Kyon's action. There were plenty of options for stopping Haruhi's assault and even after the initial rage (forgivable) he still tried to hit her (not so much...). Temporary insanity would be a better defense. Kyon stands up to Haruhi numerous times and that is the only instance of physical violence.

As I said before, Koizumi has an interest in keeping Haruhi and Kyon in a stable relationship while at the same time appeasing Haruhi in every way possible. If allowing someone to hit another person wouldn't be bad enough, letting Kyon loosen Haruhi's teeth would be the very definition of bad. Haruhi doesn't seem the type of God as forgiving as Buddha.

Although I'd like to think that Koizumi is not the kind of person to let people hit each other regardless. He's a secretive and manipulative ass but he's still a rational person...

The difference between Koizumi being "distant" and "untrustworthy" is night and day. If Kyon honestly wanted to befriend him, then he would be distant. Unless you happen to have proof that Koizumi is deliberately being a presumptuous ass towards Kyon to prevent a friendship from forming... and if that's the case I can easily provide a number of counter examples. Koizumi is clearly more willing to be friends than Kyon is.

Lastly, what basis do you have for labeling Kyon as "insecure"? Considering all he's been through and all he's done, he comes off as a pretty confident and able individual. If he spent any amount of time reflecting on his own judgements with a sense of regret and doubt they you might have a case - but he doesn't. While there may be some interesting parallels between Haruhi and NGE I can assure you Kyon is no Shinji.

As an aside, I do enjoy these types of conversations. It's not often they occur at any length...
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Nutcase
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Post by Nutcase »

"More than a little presumptuous..." Well, at least we can agree on something...

If we accept the premise that Kyon perceives Haruhi as both unstable, unrestrained and having potentially lethal power in her fingertips, then standing up to her under any circumstances in any way is heroic. This is light fiction, but that's no reason to read it without a mature understanding of life-and-death. Reasonable people can disagree about the boundaries of chivalry. There's less room for dispute about cohones. We started out discussing who's a tomcat, after all.

"In a negotiation, if you don't have walk-away power, you don't have power." A willingness to die is ultimate walk-away power. An understanding of this point is better established in Japanese culture compared to the English-speaking world.

English words like "friend" and "love" can be used to mean very different things. Some sorts of friendship stand up to hammer blows, others blow away in a light breeze. What sort of friendship is on offer between Koizumi and Kyon?

Finally, insecurity is a matter of degree and context. Kyon is insecure in his relationship with Haruhi. He's also ambivalent, but that's another issue. On the side of him that wants her, I think he doesn't know what she sees in him and questions whether he's really "good enough" for her. He doesn't have to come right out and say it for you and me to read it between the lines.

Nutcase
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Smidge204
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Post by Smidge204 »

I'd agree with your line of thought, except I don't think Kyon has any real fear of Haruhi and her powers.

For example, Koizumi spoke at great length about the "bond of trust" between Kyon and Haruhi. Thus far, she has not done anything harmful with her power and the only time she really acts poorly is when Mikuru is involved. She's a loose canon but nothing Kyon would really consider dangerous. With the exception of the scene in volume 2, Kyon's reaction is typically a facepalm and a sigh.

Perhaps I should clarify what I mean when I say Haruhi is "stable." I don't mean mentally stable (opposed to batsh*t insane) or even emotionally stable (opposed to anxious and/or depressed) so much as content with the world around her so she doesn't try to change it. Of course mental and emotional stability factor into that, but there's a little more to it.
What sort of friendship is on offer between Koizumi and Kyon?
In my opinion, a friendship of convenience. Despite how much Kyon hates his long-winded speeches and know-it-all attitude, Koizumi's intellect and ties with the Organization have been very useful on many occasions.

It's perfectly clear that Kyon has some interest in Haruhi. I'm not sure he's worried about beign "good enough" for her so much as he just doesn't know what he wants in a relationship. This is pretty typical for the "male protagonist surrounded by cute girls who like him" situation. I don't know if that really counts as insecurity or just inexperience.
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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon »

I don't know if that really counts as insecurity or just inexperience.
It's also quite possible he's grown close to all of them, making it impossible to choose one without hurting the others. When you're as manly as Kyon, you have problems like that. :P

Such is the fate of all harem owners...

I mean, think about it:

You choose Haruhi, and... potentially hurt Mikuru, and quite possibly create an unfixable emotion confliction in Yuki, which makes her go crazy again.

You choose Mikuru, and... Yuki goes nutters again, and Haruhi uses Ultimate Shinjin Works.

You choose Yuki, and... potentially hurt Mikuru, and Haruhi uses USW again.

Lose/Lose/Lose.
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Guest lol
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Post by Guest lol »

I think that choosing Haruhi would have no actual effect on Mikuru or Yuki.

Mikuru knows very well that she can't be paired with Kyon and she has a job to do. She can't become very attached because she knows that eventually she has to return back to her time. Plus I assume that she's been trained for this.

Yuki is not even a human, and she knows that she can't be with Kyon obviously. Although she can savor the times she has with Kyon and the SOS dan, eventually she'll have to go back to the Data Entity when her job is done.

Haruhi would probably rebuild the world if Kyon went with another girl. She'd probably take it semi seriously at first, confirm, THEN rebuild though. Or maybe she'll just kill the girl that Kyon likes.
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Nutcase
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Post by Nutcase »

A better word than "fear" might be "respect." I think Kyon respects Haruhi, like a very sharp knife, or maybe a running chain saw. You want to grab the handle, not the blade, that sort of thing.

People are more than just objects, and this adds another dimension. We have empathy, and this gives us insight into the behavior of others because we think, "what would I feel, what would I do in that position?" Kyon is empathic, and his biggest issues with Haruhi come up when she treats other people like they are objects. Kyon doesn't respect a lack of respect. When he almost swings on Haruhi, this is exactly the provocation.

I personally favor a policy of doing unto others as they do unto others - but fighting your own fight. In other words, when you encounter cruel, ruthless stupidity, that's a good reason to get ruthless, but pass on the cruel stupidity. At least that's the game I talk. In this context, I empathize with at least wanting to swing on Haruhi. And checked by Koizumi, etc., the outcome is optimal.

I can understand your take on Koizumi's "friendship." Still, "do unto others..." cuts both ways.

Anyway, I think this bit from the prologue of Book 7 is an interesting follow-up on the earlier incident.
Spoiler! :
Whoever makes Asahina-san cry deserves to be beat to a pulp; this is indisputable. After reflecting for a while, I wondered how many times I've made Asahina-san cry? Next time I go to a boxing practice ring with Haruhi, I'll practice some boxing. I can even enjoy the sensation of hitting people and being hit.

Dragoon,

Haruhi has right of first refusal, and everybody knows it, the way I see it. the fruit is still green, so best leave it hang. Not really a symmetrical lose/lose/lose, taking the long view.


Nutcase
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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon »

Haruhi has right of first refusal
That very premise is what I think makes Kyon so disgusted at the idea. Kyon doesn't like the idea that Haruhi has any control over him beyond what he decides to give her. Being dragged around seems to be okay with him in the long run, but he still can't accept the idea that he's going to be bound to her indefinitely.

I can empathize with him... as if I were trapped in a relationship of necessity, I would feel as though my own emotions, reasons, and decisions were worthless or simply ignored. It's going to take Kyon challenging Haruhi, and winning, before any real relationship between them is possible.

Boundaries and mutual respect are required. These are two things that Haruhi isn't capable of grasping.

For story purposes, Kyon is gonna get taken home by Haruhi. Simple as that...
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Nutcase
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Post by Nutcase »

Well, yeah, but it shades toward a "be careful what you wish for" situation, it's not like Kyon wasn't "asking for trouble" when he began studying her. I think Haruhi knew perfectly well that he was admiring her from afar. Probably one of many, but still. Haruhi sees more than she lets on. Then he indicates he's contemplating her motives.

Kyon can walk away from Haruhi if and when he can do it with a whole heart. She won't stop him, she's not that kind of girl. That's my read, anyway.

Nutcase
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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon »

She'd probably let him go if he really told her to bugger off, but I think it'd hurt her.

A lot.

And he'd have to explain to her what her power is and how to stop it, because, otherwise, she'd be drawing him back to her subconciously. He'd have to screw everything up for everyone else by telling her. Think of the chaos it'd cause.

I don't think I could inflict that kind of pain on someone, much less throw the world into harm's way, even if I felt that I was trapped like Kyon is.
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