The future's countermeasure

[Nutcase]

I got started on something in the Chapter2 Discussion which is too big for that venue. The thread threatened to branch and grow like kudzu. I want to try again, planting a smaller topic in a larger pot.


I'm looking at this speech by Koizumi:


"There's a reason for not letting her know. Because if a time traveler finds out they're part of a big plot, all they have to do is analyze it and make a move. Because she wouldn't do anything to harm her future self. Asahina-san is a time traveler yet is very unknowledgeable. That's because she actually doesn't know much at all. We can only say they don't want to let her know. That's the future's countermeasure, so we of the past cannot analyze what will happen."


The meaning of the bolded sentence is ambiguous. Who is analysing what?

As the translation stands, the subject seems to be Asahina; but the overall point of the paragraph seems to be that Mikuru is not analyzing anything, she's just a pawn, pushed down the board by mysterious instructions. Also, Mikuru didn't "find out" she was part of a big plot, she knew it when she was sent back in the first place.

It would make a little more sense if we change "they're" to "their":

"Because if a time traveler finds out their part of a big plot..."


Mikuru understands that she is part of a big plot, but she doesn't understand
what part. She doesn't have the knowledge to analyse the situation and make a move on her own, nor can this information be coerced or tricked out of her by "we of the past."

Isn't this what Koizumi's words should communicate?

[Smidge204]

Using the rest of the paragraph to remove the ambiguity, I would like to propose an alternate explanation:

If a person travels from the future to the present, and has full knowledge of the immediate future, their actions are likely to be influenced by such knowledge (even if only subconsciously). Someone from the present could possibly observe the time traveler's actions and deduce the immediate future for themselves.

This is especially important for "big plots" - the time traveler is unlikely to do anything to harm their own time line, but an outside observer might wish to do so.

Therefore, to prevent the present from knowing *anything* about the future, the time traveler must have as little knowledge as possible.

While I think "they" in this context is referring to people of the present in general, it may also refer to the rival group of time travelers who are possibly from a future different from Asahina's.

As for Asahina knowing she's part of a big plot - this is false. At the beginning her only instruction was to observe Haruhi and report on any abnormalities. She never seems to know anything about what's going on and is even surprised at how easily she gets the authorization for Kyon's instructions. Either she's an amazingly good and consistent actor or she genuinely knows nothing - and the latter is the safer alternative for her future.
=Smidge=

[Nutcase]

I'm not sure we actually have different theories of the underlying intent here. Maybe it's just different takes on the wording.

In part it depends on how one wants to construe "big plot." This gets into the difficulty in disentangling strategic objectives from strategy from tactics. I think Mikuru probably knew from the outset that she was there to serve the strategic objective of stabilizing her own future. One could construe that as the "big plot." However, she is intentionally kept in the dark about the sequence of steps necessary to achieve that objective. One could also reasonably construe the sequence of steps as the "big plot".

Maybe "their part in a big plan" would be less ambiguous than "they are part of a big plot".

On your point about deducing the future (the "big plan" at least), I don't think that's so easy, merely by observing actions. However, a knowledgeable traveler could be coerced, and this would of course multiply the difficulties in keeping the plan on track...

[Smidge204]

Most of what I said was based entirely on Volume 7.

1) There are multiple futures. Not possible futures, but actual distinct time planes that exist simultaneously.

2) People in at least two of these futures have developed time travel. One such group is represented by Asahina.

3) The "other" time travelers wish to sabotage Asahina's future for wahtever reason.

Therefore, the "big plot" Asahina is involved in is the thwarting of such attempts. Much of Volume 7 centered directly around this fact.

Remember that we're not talking about John Q Public here, we're talking about rival time travelers. There has been nothing so far to suggest Asahina (small) knows anything about the efforts of her future and that of their rivals, only that such rivals exist. The only thing we know for sure is that she claims to be there soley for the purpose of observing Haruhi so they can figure out how to repair the time quake that blocked off the past.
=Smidge=

[Dragoon]

If there were two possible futures, that would explain why Sneering Itsuki is so flippant towards Mikuru. The idea that one day your future will just disappear because of the efforts of someone else would piss me off, too.

Who's to say that Mikuru's future is better? I guess that's why Kyon is pissed off, in a way. If you think about it, wouldn't you, the present, want to be the one that decides what's to come?

[Nutcase]

I don't dispute anything in what you have outlined, smidge.

I think this is a Schroedinger's cat situation, with Kyon=us the readers as the observer who will, at some point, open the box and find out whether the future has a live cat or a dead cat in it. Meanwhile, both futures are equally "real." However, the future will be shaped by a moral choice rather than by god flipping a coin. That is to say, Kyon will choose the future rather than merely observing.

But how does all this bear on the initial question in this thread, which is, more or less, can we rewrite this line so that it makes more sense without losing contact with the original text:

Because if a time traveler finds out they're part of a big plot, all they have to do is analyze it and make a move.

I still favor something along the lines of:

Because if a time traveler finds out their part in a big plan, all they have to do is analyze it and make a move.

It just occurred to me that this line makes sense if we take the time traveler in question to be on the opposing side to the faction with the big plan. Mikuru isn't the subject of this sentence! She is, rather, the potential channel by which the other side discovers the plan! Aha! Now I have to go reread Koizumi's whole exposition.

[Smidge204]

It's late, so I'll reply formally once I've digested it a bit.

In the meantime, this seems appropriate for some reason.
=Smidge=

[Quiet Lurker]

Perhaps the younger Mikuru is kept in the dark so that she has the greatest amount of freedom?

It seems that the world of Suzumiya Haruhi series is more or less governed by Novikov's Self Consistency Principle or predestination. This is supported by:
1) Yuki's statement near the end of Volume 7 Chapter 1 "Even though I have lost the ability to perform synchronization, I have obtained freedom beyond what I had imagined. Now I am able to act according to my own free will, unbound by the future."
It seems that knowledge of the future limit's one's actions.

2) Sneering Kidnapper's statement about the memory chip in Volume 7 Chapter 5 "As long as you picked it up with your own hands, the future will not change no matter who obtains it."
Which hints that the power for time travellers to change the past is very limited.

In direct contrast, it seems that the future is changeable or at least uncertain. As Nagato Yuki commented in the end of Volume 4 that "no one can guarantee that something that hasn't happened will ever occur."

So far however, both Kyon and Yuki seem to be careful to avoid time paradoxes.
i.e. In Volume 4 Yuki specifically told Kyon not to disrupt her "astray self" before she changed the world.
Kyon waited until "he" gets stabbed before taking action.

[onizuka-gto]

It's late, so I'll reply formally once I've digested it a bit.

In the meantime, this seems appropriate for some reason.
=Smidge=

That comic was beautiful.



Love Quantum physics

*been watching the Anime series, Noein*

[Nutcase]

Okay, I guess Smidge has a life or something.

"There's a reason for not letting her know. Because if a time traveler finds out they're part of a big plot, all they have to do is analyze it and make a move. Because she wouldn't do anything to harm her future self. Asahina-san is a time traveler yet is very unknowledgeable. That's because she actually doesn't know much at all. We can only say they don't want to let her know. That's the future's countermeasure, so we of the past cannot analyze what will happen."

On the basis of previous discussion, I suggest the following edit:

"There's a reason for not letting her know. Because if a time traveler’s part in a big plot is found out, all anyone has to do is analyze it to make a counter-move. Even though she wouldn't do anything to harm her future self, Asahina-san is a time traveler yet is very unknowledgeable. Because she actually doesn't know much at all, we can only deduce that they don't want to let her know. That's the future's countermeasure, so we of the past cannot analyze what will happen.

I'm not in love with this specific take, but I do think this version is more coherent while still preserving most of the original wording. Quite possibly, though, other wording might run closer to the Japanese without losing the sense.

Nutcase

[Smidge204]

Sorry, things happen from time to time :E

Looking at the original text, I heve reason to believe the translation is actually very poor...

「彼女が知らされていないのはゆえあってのことですよ。なぜなら、未来人が明確な意図を持って動いていることが解ったとしたら、後はその動きを分析《ぶんせき》すればいいんです。彼女が自分の未来にとって不都合な行動を意図的にするわけはありませんからね。朝比奈さんが未来人の割にうかつに見えるのは、ほとんど何も知らないからです。あえて知らされていないとしか思えません。それは過去人である我々が分析できないようにする、未来からの対抗《たいこう》措置《そ　ち　》ですよ。彼女の存在は今のこの時空に必要ですが、彼女の存在から未来を推測されるのは困るというわけです。その意味で彼女は完壁《かんぺき》な時間｜駐在員《ちゅうざいいん》と言えます。現に僕は彼女に脅威《きょうい》を感じないし、いざというときにはこちらの手駒《て　ごま》として動かせるようにも思っています」

Wall-o-text...

Anyway, I think it goes something like this (using Google's translator and a dictionary, and some creative editing...)

There may be a reason for not letting her know anything. If the intentions of a time traveler were clear, then their movement could be analyzed and understood. There is no reason for her to act against her own future, don't you agree?. Because she does not know the future at all, Asahina-san can act comparatively carelessly. You can't think for yourself if you are informed of events ahead of time. This is the future's countermeasure so we in the past cannot try to analyze her. Her existence is necessary in this current time plane, but it is the existence of what we presume is her future that is troubled. You can call her the resident representative in that sense. In reality I do not feel she is a threat, and at the critical moment she will be able to move accordingly.

Take that with a grain of salt, but there is definately more to that paragraph than originally translated. Feel free to run it through Google or Babelfish yourself and see if you can come up with a better wording.

Edit: Quiet Lurker seems to be a bit closer to this possible translation that either of us were. His citing of Nagato's quote is also revealing of a deeper theme when combined with Koizumi's dialog here.
=Smidge=

[Nutcase]

Thank you very much, Smidge. This is a great improvement already, much richer than anything I could grope my way toward from the original translation.

Nutcase

[Nutcase]

Because she does not know the future at all, Asahina-san can act comparatively carelessly.

Of course this isn't quite right, as she does know some things about the future. For starters, she knows that she comes from the future. What she doesn't know is her own personal future-in-the-past.

"Carelessly" isn't quite right, either. How about:

Because she does not know her future actions at all, Asahina-san can act in a comparatively spontaneous way.

-----

In reality I do not feel she is a threat,

is quite different from the current translation:

I don't feel like she's being threatened right now,

Both takes make sense in the context. Since you are not inclined to mess with "good enough," I have to give your take the benefit of the doubt. However, on the following phrase:

and at the critical moment she will be able to move accordingly.

is the sense of actively protecting completely implicit?

Nutcase

[HolyCow]

This is my take at translating. Note that I have paraphrased things quite a bit.

“There’s a reason for not letting her know, of course. If a time traveler were to know of his or her reason for traveling back in time, he or she would inevitably analyze that reason, and carefully plan his or her next actions, since a time traveler would never do something that would jeopardize his or her own future. That is why although Asahina-san is a time traveler, she doesn’t know anything about her true purpose for traveling back in time. It’s because she has been intentionally kept in the dark. This is a preventative step the future has taken to ensure that the past, be it their past selves or others native to that time plane like you and me, does not analyze their reasons and act unaccordingly, putting the future at risk. All we know about Asahina-san is that she is required to remain in this time plane. If we were to successfully conclude why she traveled back in time from the future, it would be a very grave situation for the future. As such, the future takes great precaution in ensuring that the only thing we can conclude is that she is a beautiful representative from the future. I do not feel threatened by her now, but if the need arises, I believe that she will act based on her orders from the future.

I believe that "preventative step" or "precaution" is more suitable than "countermeasure". Post your thoughts here.

[Symphonia]

That translation seems to make a lot more sense now. So it's basically saying that Mikuru can't know what her reasons for being in the past are because could become too judgemental of her own actions; wondering if what she is doing is “right” and so on.

I suppose for an example; if she knew that one of the orders she was taking would inevitably end up hurting Kyon in the future, there is a chance she wouldn't want to follow those orders or she'd try to do something to change that inevitable future. Also, because Mikuru has no idea of why she has been sent to the past, there is no chance of this information being leaked to Kyon and then he trying to change the future himself.

This pretty much goes along with the stuff we already know, that Mikuru is often frustrated or upset with the fact that she has to blindly follow orders without any idea of why she has to do it. Kyon experiences this himself throughout Volume 7.

"Preventative step" does seem to hold the better nuance in my opinion. Maybe a few edits should be made to the original?