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Setherzam
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Post by Setherzam »

china, everything comes from china.
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Post by Guest lol »

No.

If it breaks fast and it's cheap it's chinese
If it breaks fast and costs a lot it's american
If it breaks REALLY fast and it's REALLY expensive then it's european
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Post by onizuka-gto »

Does that mean if it break slow, and cost cheap its Korean?

equally

if it break slow, and cost expensive, its Japanese?

:roll:
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Post by Setherzam »

if it breaks slow then its from the phillipians like all watches should be
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Post by Florin »

HolyCow wrote:Talking about infinite loops:

Let's say that you managed to build a time machine at the age of 17. You decide to take the time machine 30 years into the future, where you find a very cool watch lying on the table. without thinking, you grab it, and return to the present. 30 years later, you are the proud owner of the special watch, when one day it suddenly goes missing.

You suddenly remember that you stole the watch from your future self at the age of 17, and now the watch has been stolen by your past self (Read: you are supposed to lose the watch 30 years later). This raises an interesting question: Where did the watch come from in the first place?
You could also use Tanabata event as another example. Actually, "paradoxes" like this are the reason I don't take time-travel stuff seriously.
P.S. Becoming your own parent is impossible for purely biological reasons: Your child is going to have only half of your chromosomes (in layman's terms, you cannot give birth to your own exact copy).
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Post by onizuka-gto »

HolyCow wrote:Talking about infinite loops:

Let's say that you managed to build a time machine at the age of 17. You decide to take the time machine 30 years into the future, where you find a very cool watch lying on the table. without thinking, you grab it, and return to the present. 30 years later, you are the proud owner of the special watch, when one day it suddenly goes missing.

You suddenly remember that you stole the watch from your future self at the age of 17, and now the watch has been stolen by your past self (Read: you are supposed to lose the watch 30 years later). This raises an interesting question: Where did the watch come from in the first place?
Multiple Universe theory.

Paradox solves itself, by separating the events.

You go to the future, the minute you step into the physical 3D world, a new universe/reality is formed, you steal your own watch. In that reality you realise your watch has gone, the one you brought.

When you head back into the past of your own reality, you will have in possession the watch and you will continue with it, as if nothing has happen….until another you from a different reality which also has no watch, and has the same idea, pops into your reality and steals the watch, thus creating another alternative reality, but since humans cannot reproduce the same exact action, this reality with be subtly different, thus prevent a duplicated reality.

Of course the argument is that there is always a chance that you will indeed reproduce the same result, however small the percentage there is a very very small possibility.

The way the universe compensate for a duplicate reality is simple. It merges corresponding reality, as only the universe with the EXACT information can only occupy the same space. I say merge, but it could equally be a mutual destruction…scientist have yet to decide on that… :roll:

Either way, paradox is solved and a quazillion different realities are formed, over the smallest of details, such as you picked your nose, but you can equally not pick it, thus two realties are formed as you perform both actions.

Thus your question becomes limited as you must then as the question, if all possibilities exist, which reality are we living in? Does our consciousness follow the decision we make, thus like a FPS computer game, where we are simply deciding at key point, left or right? Or is it like an online RPG, we do one quest, pause and an do another one before finishing, and do another…our consciousness flirting from one reality to another, before filtering back to the main consciousness to be assembled together, to form a continuous perception of life?

Who knows…. I just hope in the future someone finds the directory where we store our quick saves so I can go back and have a crack at those unfulfilled task/quest. ;)
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Post by HolyCow »

That STILL doesn't explain where did the watch come from :P It only explains how you lost it etc.

Where did the damn watch come from in the first place? :)
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Florin
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Post by Florin »

onizuka: the way you put it, it has nothing to do with time-travel at all - you go to a different world, not to the future

HolyCow: simple really, it had to be obtained by trivial means (bought, presented, etc.) in the first place, loops or not.
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Post by dt »

HolyCow wrote:Talking about infinite loops:

Let's say that you managed to build a time machine at the age of 17. You decide to take the time machine 30 years into the future, where you find a very cool watch lying on the table. without thinking, you grab it, and return to the present. 30 years later, you are the proud owner of the special watch, when one day it suddenly goes missing.

You suddenly remember that you stole the watch from your future self at the age of 17, and now the watch has been stolen by your past self (Read: you are supposed to lose the watch 30 years later). This raises an interesting question: Where did the watch come from in the first place?
This also rises another question: how old is this watch? :) Cuz every time it's lost and found it is 30 years older, and eventually it will simply turn to dust! What will you find then?

In the multiply universe world which oni is talking about (I call it "noein-type universe") there's no problem in both cases, however. There's always at least one universe where watch didn't come from future, but were bought in the store or obtained in any other normal way, then there are lots of universes with older and older watches, and finally a universe where the watch ages so much that it wouldn't/couldn't be found. Of course, strictly speaking this is not really a time travel, but since you can always find a universe which is exact copy of your universe's past (it stops being one at the moment of your arrival, however, but then again you can find another one :)) you can count it as a time travel in a certain way.
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Florin
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Post by Florin »

Actually, with oni's theory, there's no guarantee that any of the thefts would be successful. Since it's different universe every time, things go different way every time.
P.S. I've opened special topic for time-travel discussion for those interested.
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Post by HolyCow »

Florin wrote:HolyCow: simple really, it had to be obtained by trivial means (bought, presented, etc.) in the first place, loops or not.
But no one bought the watch. I stole it from my future self, who stole it from his future self.... It's an infinite loop :P
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Florin
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Post by Florin »

HolyCow wrote:
Florin wrote:HolyCow: simple really, it had to be obtained by trivial means (bought, presented, etc.) in the first place, loops or not.
But no one bought the watch. I stole it from my future self, who stole it from his future self.... It's an infinite loop :P
No, not really. It must at least have a beginning. If no one bought the watch in the first place, it never existed at all, and this loop is not possible.
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Post by dt »

Florin wrote:Actually, with oni's theory, there's no guarantee that any of the thefts would be successful. Since it's different universe every time, things go different way every time.
P.S. I've opened special topic for time-travel discussion for those interested.
Well, no, every time the theft is possible, reality splits in two: one where watch have been stolen, and another one where it haven't. Or maybe they were separate exact realities from the beginning, but that doesn't really matter cause there is no way to tell them apart before the moment of the possibility of the theft anyway. And this thing happens every time something is possible, no matter how small possibility is, to the extent of your future self popping out of nowere right in front of you just as you are reading this, kicking you in the head, stealing your watch and disappearing again xD

Oh wait, that doesn't make sense =) But whatever, what I want to say is that according to the theory there's an infinite number of universes with any kinds of things happening, and you can always find whatever universe you want.

Let's say, how about one where you have your personal harem? xD
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Florin
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Post by Florin »

Actually, there can't be loop to begin with: say, you travel to the future, which is in universe A, steal watch, then back to the present. But for the future of universe A, your present is _past_, and just by being there you're changing it to something else - universe B. But your "traveler" has never been to future-B - he stole that watch from future-A, which no longer exists. This way, he will never appear in your now-current world, B, and steal your watch, so you can keep it forever :idea:
One little nitpick also: you can't steal something from yourself, cause if you travel into future, you disappear from the time period between source and destination. You should put it like that instead: stealing watch from your friend in future and then giving it to him as a gift in present. That would make you a much nicer person too :wink:

dt: I'm really not into this split-universe stuff. "Possibility" and "choice" are just words humans invented to mark their inability to predict events and make decisions. But the Universe itself is just an infinitely-complicated machine: everything that happens in the future is unambiguously defined by everything that happened in the past.
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Novikov self-consistency principle

Post by Quiet Lurker »

According to the Novikov self-consistency principle, the time traveller physically cannot steal the watch unless the state of the watch being stolen from the future is identical to the state of the watch being obtained in the past.

For example, if the watch was wound and pointing 5 minutes to seven, when it was stolen, the time traveller cannot steal and travel with the watch until s/he winds the watch and point the watch or wait until 5 minutes to seven. :wink:

Note: the anything could happen to the watch during the 30 year interval (it could be dissassembled, repaired, repainted etc.,) as long as it returns to its "stolen" state at the end of the 30 year interval.

As for where the watch came from and where it went:
From a static point of view, the watch came into existence in the time plane when the time traveller arrived in the past with it, the watch ceased to exist in the time plane when the watch was stolen 30 years later. Hence it was both created and destroyed when the time traveller travelled, (created in the past, destroyed 30 years later).

Incidentally: the short story All You Zombies is a good illustration of this.
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