Making Help Pages on Wiki

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Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby cloudii » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:04 pm

Rewriting this OP in preparation for the General Baka-Tsuki Meeting to be held on 2014/3/30. Original post is under the last spoiler.

GENERAL PROPOSAL:
Make Guidelines & Rules More Accessible to New Members


  • Part 1: Clarify Ambiguous (outdated) Baka-Tsuki guidelines.
  • Part 2: Migrate all the Wiki rules from the Forums, and archive the old rules.
  • Part 3: Create comprehensive Help Pages to improve the experience of brand-new members.

Why Do This?

    The learning curve for joining Baka-Tsuki is currently extremely high. Rules and guidelines are in sporadic and non-intuitive locations. The forums are a mess, and it's extremely difficult to extract relevant and up-to-date information amidst all the noise. How is a new translator supposed to know the "New Project Petition Guidelines" is on the forums when there isn't even a link from wiki to it?

    In short, it's a confusing experience for new members.

    Why? Because new members who want to find information have to spend hours attempting to find guidelines and rules, some of which are outdated and provide misleading information. I know a lot of us complain about the stupid questions that get asked on the forums and Facebook, but honestly, with such poor documentation, we can't blame them for not knowing when the lack of clarity in our rules/guidelines is our own shortcoming.

    Spoiler! :
    Here are just some examples of "stupid" questions that get asked by Wiki contributors. Why are these stupid questions being asked? Because the answers were too difficult for a new-member to find.
    If a project doesn't have an administrator such as "hanbun no tsuki ga noboru sora", is it available for registration and translating?

    um just a quick question if i wanted to help with translations of a series i need to register to that series but are the raws supplied or do i need to go buy a copy to be able to contribute to the community just wanted to know

    Hi guys, how are you?
    I wanted to ask you who do I have to contact to make the Spanish version of Ero Manga Sensei an official project?
    A friend of mine has already translated the "at least one chapter" required for authorizing the project.
    He asked me to do this because he still can't validate his user account on the forums :S

    I bet this is out of order but...is there anywhere I can read a description of how Baka-Tsuki operates? Procedures? Organization? Other?
    I have a feeling I have something to offer here, because of my liking for Japanese stuff & my English editing work experience, but it's hard to understand how it all works here well enough to judge.

    How do I contact an administrator for the wiki page who doesn't have a contact information?

    Im appreciate, and I have other problem, I have no idea about how can I register that I going to traslate that chapter, can you help me
    ?

    Is there a tutorial on how to compile or create PDF that is light-novel translation-worthy? Like how to create light novel PDF in the same way with SAO? I mean, I've tried to compile translations into pdf but mine is like MS-Word newb....

    hi! good day! may I humbly ask anyone here who knows things in BT,.. are the "original light novel" posted in BT are really original writings of some gifted and talented secret authors here? because i never noticed it before. i just want to appreciate them.
    so we can post our own LN if ever we have the talent and the guts? how? though i don't have both.

    Hello I am posting here to ask how do I register to translate for a project?
    The project I want to translate for is Seirei Tsukai no Blade Dance
    But there is no project administrator or supervisor
    Should I just contact the other translator first to ask what he is translating or how should I go about this?
    Also how do I contact the other translators on the project?
    Sorry complete noob when it comes to posting or anything here.

    How do I exactly contact people or teh ping I'm not allowed to send mail apparently
    (^This person is referring to PMs).
    What does it take to be an editor? do you have to be fluent in more than one language, or just edit together already translated parts so the flow better? I'm honestly curious since I need something to fill some time.

    Hello! I'm new too and I'm also trying to translate Mondaiji to Italian. So after I read Hei's discussion I would like to know if He/she is also on that project.
    I'm starting to work on the prologue too, so if Hei already had done it I'll start with Chapter 1.
    I've already asked the authorization to Firebird to start the project and he said that was ok, but I'm new to the wiki-system.
    I did find a lot help page with the layout ecc.. but I couldn't find anything on how to create/add new page.
    I know I'm strange.....
    Please don't kill me!!!

Part 1: Clarify Ambiguous (outdated) Baka-Tsuki guidelines.

  • Goal 1: Remove unreasonable rules.
  • Goal 2: Simplify rules to reflect our practical workflow.
  • Goal 3: Clarify the language to get the points across. Cut out the fluff.

Stress Point #1: One Week Pending Project Deadline and the ATP Tag

All Projects Startup Guidelines wrote:Publish ONE TRANSLATED CHAPTER within ONE WEEK on the wiki complete with a Main Page and a Registration Page.

    By popular demand, this ONE WEEK deadline to translate your first chapter should be removed. It isn't even enforced. All it does is terrify new translators when they hear their translation might be deleted if they don't finish their first chapter within a week.

    Instead of this rule, we can say that Project Pages with no translation (not even a teaser) uploaded to them will be deleted within a week.
ATP template wrote:Image

    What's wrong with this? This tag is written like a warning. Why is a new project that is following the rules and placing the {{ATP}} on their own page... giving themselves a warning?

    The pending tag should not be a warning/threat tag, especially since the translator is placing the tag there himself/herself. How could you not panic if you saw a warning saying your translation will be deleted because you failed to follow the rules? This is an issue, because according to Oni's rules, {{ATP}} (applied to all pending projects) is not supposed to be removed until the project is recognized as a full project.
Stress Point #2: New Project Startup Guidelines

    There's a lot of confusion with regards to the proper workflow with Project Creation. I recommend re-writing our official process.

    Most of the confusion stems from the fact that there are currently no rules governing the creation of Teaser projects. According to Oni's rules, new pending projects should be tagged with {{ATP}} and the {{ATP}} tag shouldn't be removed until it is approved as a "Full Project". However, people seem to think Teasers are a parallel process to Project Creation, so the {{ATP}} is not required on new teaser pages. Evidence: of the 67 English teasers in the teaser category, only 2 have {{ATP}} tagged.

    Here's a practical fact: Nowadays, all of our new projects go through the Teaser Project pathway. Regardless of whether a new project really should be classified as a teaser, virtually all translators tag their new project pages with the Teaser tag. This, combined with the above citation, has generated confusion about the proper workflow for new project creation.

    What could be done to solve this:

    • Consider whether it's really necessary to differentiate between a "Teaser" and a "Pending Project". Nowadays, Teasers Projects don't mean what they used to. In fact, nowadays, a Teaser is pretty much the same thing as a Pending Project.
    • At the very least, generate and clarify rules for the creation of teaser projects.
Stress Point #3: Communication with Wiki Supervisors

    There are numerous instances in our rules that require individuals to contact a supervisor, but it's extremely difficult for new members to locate contact information.
Spoiler! :
denormative wrote:There seems to be a slight problem with point 6 of the "Guidelines for Project Petition ~Essential Read~": viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1822
Guidelines for Project Petition ~Essential Read~ wrote:6) After you have fulfil the above points, you must contact a Wiki Supervisor by Email and P.M (optional) with a link to the Forum post of the requested Series.

No wiki supervisors in the list have a publicly available email address as far as I can tell, so it's impossible to fulfil the required email, only the optional PM.
Also:
Guidelines for Project Petition ~Essential Read~ wrote:<list of one score and three people>
It is heavily advised that you contact ALL the above mention.

The PM system is polite enough not to let me spam everyone (I think it only lets it go out to 5 or 6 people/groups at a time). It might be worth having a 'Wiki Supervisor' group on the forum so you can just PM that and sort it out.

How do I contact an administrator for the wiki page who doesn't have a contact information?

How do I exactly contact people or teh ping I'm not allowed to send mail apparently

    In short, it's a bad idea to recommend users to attempt contacting supervisors through Email or PM (new members can't send PMs until 5 posts).

    Supervisor responsiveness and coordination among supervisors is also an issue.

    • Fact: A new member doesn't know which supervisor to contact (there's a massive list).
    • Fact: A number of the listed supervisors are inactive (or not particularly active).
    • Implies: Hence, when a member translator contacts a single supervisor, there's a high probability their request doesn't get looked at for weeks, and in a worse-case scenario, it never get looks at.
    • Implies: In many instances, the contacted supervisor can't do anything about the request, because Oni/DarkoNeko/Vaelis are effectively the only ones who can "approve" projects. This supervisor can only forward the request.
    • Result: Administration response time is terrible. It typically takes at least a month to get a new Baka-Tsuki project approved and added to the sidebar. The exception is if you have a personal connection with Oni and are capable of bothering him on facebook/twitter.
    The fact that members have to rely on personal connections to accomplish things on Baka-Tsuki is a very bad sign.

    Furthermore, because BT staff does not coordinate information, it's extremely easy for a rule-breaker to create a new project without ever contacting a single Baka-Tsuki supervisor. How is a supervisor to know if that translator got approval for the project from Oni, larethian, zzhk, or someone else? All we can do is assume that they followed the rules (when they really didn't). It's a vulnerability in our rules that is easily exploited.

    What could be done to solve this:

    • Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made. This should be at location that all sysops/supervisors monitor. This way, if Oni is busy one week and is unable to check the Wiki (and his own talk page), Vaelis or DarkoNeko can see there are projects waiting to be added to the sidebar and do it themselves.

      • This page would be used for members to say they've created a new project/teaser, requests for adding projects to sidebars, protecting pages, etc.
      • Assign an individual to clean that page of off-topic and resolved material. (I'll even volunteer myself if no one wants to do it).
    • If necessary, it would be nice to have one more active sysop. IMO, it's starting to get hard for Oni to handle all the English projects himself. We're approaching 200 English projects now, you know?
Stress Point #4: Topics Missing Rules or Need Clarification/Emphasis

    A number of topics simply don't have a published rules or guidelines that exist. They need to be written. For example:

    • General Behavior Rules for the Wiki - There are behavioral rules for forum and fb, but none for the Wiki... Just have to keep the same existing ones.
    • A rule clarifying that the Project Supervisor has the power customize all rules for their project (needs to be explicitly stated)
    • A rule that clearly states that editors (and TLC-checkers) are required to defer to the opinion of the original translator.
    • Rules describing the promotion of Project Supervisors - It's generally self-nomination, but this isn't explicitly said anywhere. That Supervisor/Admin forum thread isn't always being used.
    • Rules governing project supervisors and at what point of inactivity they lose their position - So Project Supervisors don't overstep their bounds and start banning members... and also what happens when a Project Supervisor becomes inactive.
    • Rules for hosted projects.
    • Protocol for how Original Light Novels can be started up.
    There's more, but this is all I can think of right now. The lack of clarity in Wiki rules is the reason why incidents like these occur.
Popular Suggestion #5: Increase the Requirements for Full Project Recognition
Note: This may or may not be as relevant anymore, since DarkoNeko plans to remove the Wiki sidebar in its entirety.

    This proposal was brought up several times in the past. The main forum topic for it exists here. To summarize:

    • Increase the 1-chapter translation requirement for full project approval (to one full volume, or half a volume, etc).
    • Why? Because we have too many stalled "full projects" that only have 1 or 1.5 chapters translated and take up space on the sidebar.
    • Remove the requirement of "has an active translator willing to continue translating", but simply use the stricter-metric objectively.
    • Everything else can just be considered a "Teaser".
    Remember, we're in the range of 200 English projects now. We can afford to cut down the sidebar list that we present to readers.

    It's kind of bizarre to consider 1 chapter of stalled translations a "Full Project" when there are many teaser projects that have more material already translated. Many new translators tend to vanish after they translate one chapter and apply for full project recognition. At the very least, one chapter is not a good metric for whether a translator will really continue with the series.
Part 2: Migrate all the Wiki rules from the Forums, and archive the old rules.

  • Goal 1: Wiki rules should be on the Wiki. Not Forums.
  • Goal 2: Place rules and guidelines in an visible and accessible place.
  • Goal 3: Create an index for all of our rules and guidelines.
    Goal 4: Organize and Beautify the presentation of rules so it is short, succinct, and to-the-point.

Why should Wiki rules be on the Wiki?

    Because a new member doesn't know to check the Forums for rules pertaining to the Wiki.

    Furthermore, the forum rules aren't consolidated. For example, some procedural and guideline revisions are made in announcements or later threads, but the original post isn't always updated. The forums (or Facebook) simply aren't the best place for managing and handling rules.
What is a Visible and Accessible Place?

    A link on the sidebar (first section) that says, "Rules and Guidelines", would be fantastic. This should link to an index of rules.
What kind of Index for Rules?

Why Cosmetic Changes to the rules?

    A successful set of rules is short, succinct, and to-the-point. A reader should be able to find the rules they want to find, and nothing in the excess.

    An example of a digression in the existing forum rules D:< wrote:Obviously, any content that Baka-Tsuki lists is not banned as there would be no site if it was; even though unlicensed Light Novels are technically illegal (they are in breach of Japanese copyright law). This position may appear illogical and even hypocritical especially given that Raws are forbidden. However, we rationalise the rule by the relative ethical acceptability; we simply consider unlicensed Light Novels to be ethically more acceptable than other "pirated" media

    Rules should be free of typos and grammatical errors D:< wrote:In both cases you you must publish at leased ONE TRANSLATED CHAPTER in the respected language you wish to use.

    For example, formatting rules and tips on how to upload images should not be in the same document as guidelines for translator behavior (*cough* the Format Guideline).
Why archive the old rules?

    It's generally a bad idea to have two copies of the same rules in two locations. Once the Wiki rules are generated, the corresponding forum rules should be deleted (or linked/archived).

    Also, don't forget to protect the rules pages so only supervisors can edit them (similarly to how the Main Page is protected).
Part 3: Create comprehensive Help Pages to improve the experience of brand-new members.

  • Goal 1: Provide a step-by-step walk-through for specific roles (translator, editor, etc).
  • Goal 2: Anticipate questions a reader or new member might ask. (ie: What is Baka-Tsuki? Where can I find a list of updates?)
  • Goal 3: Make Baka-Tsuki approachable and friendly to a new member that is considering joining us.
  • Goal 4: Possibly include resources for individuals who want to improve their translating/editing skills.

Why should tutorials and help pages be separated from the rules?

    Currently, the Format Guideline is a mixture of advice, rules, and formatting regulations.

    For succinctness, rules (which should be short and concise) should be separated from tutorials (for users who want more information).

    The help pages are meant to assist those who want to learn more about a specific topic (like how to use the Furigana template), without intruding on the members who don't want to see the additional information mixed in with the rules.
Status Update on Help Pages

    I have already written a number of help pages on the Wiki, but it's by no means a personal project! I'm really hoping that more members will pitch in and help write more help pages. Special acknowledgements to KuroiHikari, Misogi, DarkoNeko, Cautr, Hiro Hayase, Zzhk, Ctaeth, and many other Baka-Tsuki members for contributing content and giving opinions.

    Click here to see the current state of the Wiki Help pages.

That's all! Thanks for reading through this super long post. <3 The OP is in the spoiler below this.
--------

Spoiler! :
cautr wrote:at the moment there are several threads going on about changing BT Quality, the main page, etc.

Those are major changes, especially the discussion about how to improve the quality overall. In my humble opinion it would be nice if we first tend to some smaller things, to warm ourselves up for bigger tasks. In other words: If we could improve/solve a single thing before the year ends.


This is just an FYI. In the next few months, I'll be making a number of draft HELP pages on the Wiki that are designed to collect the numerous random information pages we have everywhere. It's a hassle for new members to locate information about Baka-Tsuki, and if we're hoping to attract new contributors and members, the first step should be is clarify the support information for them.

As such, I hope people don't mind that I start moving pages to the "HELP Category" and start interlinking them to make them navigable. I'll also be editing the language so it becomes more organized and comparable to the help pages of bigger Wiki's (like Wikipedia).

Feel free to edit over the pages I make -- I'll be writing HELP pages on my own time, but I'd gladly welcome anyone who wants to help!

Most importantly, please correct any of my inaccuracies..... @[email protected]:

Use the Wiki talk pages to bring up questions or debate unclear points.

LIST OF PAGES CLOUD MADE/REVISED:
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby Misogi » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:14 pm

If I remember to do it, I'll add anything from my Help pages that wasn't on the original guidelines.
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby cloudii » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:34 pm

Also hiding this post because it's really just a reiteration of topics I updated in the first post.

Spoiler! :
Going to post a quick update on the status of the help pages and such:

1). PRIORITY: Ask Oni to copy-paste the forum rules to the Wiki, lock the help pages, and then archive and remove the rules here.

    Wiki rules should be on Wiki. There's too many random rule threads on the forums, and it's way too difficult for a new member to navigate the forums the find the necessary guidelines and rules. The rules have to be deleted on the forum and linked to the Wiki, because we can't be having two copies of the rules in two different locations.

    Also, when Oni does this, can we use this as a chance to clean up the outdated rules that don't make sense?

2). PRIORITY: A Comprehensive List of Rule Changes... Basically drastic changes to the current rules that I urgently recommend.
  • "Anonymous Translated Contributions are required to inform thelastguardian and the designated Project Supervisor..." - Um, no. Anonymous translators don't and probably shouldn't need to inform TLG... I'd favor dropping the extra restrictions on anon TLers just for simplicity.
  • During new project petitioning, people who create new projects are supposed to "contact a Wiki Supervisor by Email and P.M (optional) with a link to the Forum post of the requested Series... It is heavily advised that you contact ALL the above mention." - Um, email part doesn't happen for sure. Same with 'contacting EVERYONE'. I'd favor a complete re-writing of the Project Creation Guidelines, especially since the language is addressed to readers and not to translators that are much more likely to start a project. Also, not all projects start out in the Future Project Suggestions forum.
  • "Note to Supervisors: Please send a copy of your Email approval with the original request to the Big Boss (thelastguardian) to inform him of the new project. Thank you" - Isn't happening. Thus, either remove the rule or get back to emailing TLG D:<
  • "Publish ONE TRANSLATED CHAPTER within ONE WEEK on the wiki complete with a Main Page and a Registration Page..." in order to be recognized as a new project. - This is the most infamous rule. And no, of course it's not being followed.
  • What's the point of Project Administrators? Isn't it just easier to contact any Wiki Supervisor for that kind of administrative duty? 90% of the Project Admin spaces are blank and/or held by individuals who really aren't involved with the project.

3). PRIORITY: There's a lot of confusion with regards to the proper workflow with Project Creation. I recommend re-writing our official process. Some questions:
  • Assumption: All brand new project pages need to be tagged with {{ATP}}
  • Question: When does the Teasers tag get added? Should all translations with less than one chapter (but more than an empty page) be tagged as a teaser?
  • Question: When does the ATP tag get removed? Who has the rights to remove the ATP tag? Only Oni/DarkoNeko?
  • Question: When does the Teasers tag get removed? Who has the rights to upgrade the teasers tag to full Light Novel tag? Only Oni/DarkoNeko?

    In case you haven't noticed, theoretically this is redundant. ATP theoretically isn't supposed to be approved until after one chapter completed and there's an active translator (according to our written rules). Teasers are theoretically supposed to describe any project where the translator has no plans to continue. However, we haven't been following these theoretical guidelines in our practical use.

    Instead, what have we been doing? We've been dropping the ATP side of the workflow. Pretty much everyone opts to consider their new translation "a teaser" (which for some reason appears to make it exempt from the ATP tag? IDK why. Almost none of our English teasers have ATP tags. *shrugs*), regardless of whether they intend to continue their translations of a new project or not. Since everyone seems to be doing it this way, what's the point of the ATP tag? Furthermore, even if we require users to tag ATP to their teasers, isn't it redundant? ATP doesn't get removed until after one complete chapter, and teaser tag doesn't get removed until after one complete chapter. Functionally, they're the same.

    Suggested solutions:
    • Merge the ATP tag with the Teaser tag. The Teasers tag pretty much functions identically to how ATP is supposed to function nowadays.
    • Reserve ATP as a front-line control to new project pages. In this system, ATP is tagged so supervisors can check that a noobie didn't create a blank project page with no translations posted. Once translations start (not after one full chapter), ATP tag is removed. Teaser tag replaces ATP tag and can stay there until Oni/DarkoNeko decides to add the project to the sidebar (and/or potentially keep the teaser tag up until whatever our minimum full project requirement is).
    • Less related: Remove the "active translator" clause for full project recognition. Replace with a more quantitative metric like: "Full volume or more than 100 pages translated."

4). PRIORITY: Rule Additions: Additional rules that I recommend that we create, because there are no written rules currently guiding these things.
  • General Behavior Rules for the Wiki - There are behavioral rules for forum and fb, but none for the Wiki... Just have to keep the same existing ones.
  • A rule clarifying that the Project Supervisor has the power customize all rules for their project (not explicitly stated)
  • A rule that clearly states that editors (and TLC-checkers) are required to defer to the opinion of the original translator.
  • Rules describing the promotion of Project Supervisors - It's generally self-nomination, but this isn't explicitly said anywhere. That Supervisor/Admin forum thread isn't always being used.
  • Rules governing project supervisors and at what point of inactivity they lose their position - Yo, I'm an active translator and what do we do with an inactive Project Supervisor? At what point do we call them inactive? Can I become the new project supervisor if the old one is inactive? Also rules limiting what a Project Supervisor can do (like, no free-for-all banning).
  • Rules for hosted projects
  • Protocol for how OLN can be placed on the Wiki

In general, I've already thought about a bunch of these things and put them in the draft rules/help pages on the Wiki. If you're too lazy to go through these points, you're welcome to read the help pages I've already written and directly make remarks on those.

I would really like to emphasize the confusion about Project Creation Protocol because even I don't know what to do about it, and apparently not all of us share the same opinions.

This wouldn't be a big issue if Oni's current rules were being followed, but they're not. English teasers with less than one chapter for some reason aren't tagged with ATP. If you're in the camp that thinks teasers shouldn't be tagged with ATP, then what do you say in response to the fact that all of our new projects are being marked with "Teaser" nowadays. ...is the ATP tag deprecated then?
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby Misogi » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:54 pm

I always use ATP for new projects.

Rules for file naming (of images) and page naming - No official written rules (I'm pretty sure there's a thread somewhere, but I can't even find it).


They do exist in the Format guidelines, IIRC.

BTW, Help Pages should be accessible on the Home Page.
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby cloudii » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:02 pm

Misogi wrote:They do exist in the Format guidelines, IIRC.

Ah, thanks. Noted. I remembered reading it somewhere, but I couldn't find it again afterwords for some reason... @[email protected];

Misogi wrote:I always use ATP for new projects.

I know. xD The alt. language projects are very faithful with ATP. But for some reason, ATP just doesn't happen with the English projects for some reason. You look on the ATP list, and they're all alt language projects... except for like 2 english ones.

We have 70 english teasers.
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby Hiro Hayase » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:19 pm

"Anonymous Translated Contributions are required to inform thelastguardian and the designated Project Supervisor..."

This rule is meh. We did have instances where anons and registered users were blatantly copying and pasting translations onto the wiki without the translator's permission in the past.

"contact a Wiki Supervisor by Email and P.M (optional) with a link to the Forum post of the requested Series... It is heavily advised that you contact ALL the above mention."

I think this rule has not been updated since 2006-2007. Generally, we tell people that want to start up new projects to get the approval from one of the supervisors (wiki) via forum or on the main site.

"Note to Supervisors: Please send a copy of your Email approval with the original request to the Big Boss (thelastguardian) to inform him of the new project. Thank you"

TLG is the only one who can add a series to the side bar on the wiki I believe. People usually email him when the new series is no longer a teaser, but a full project.

My definition of the supervisor is the lead translator in the project that has contributed much. For the administrators, I think of teh_ping and the others on the main page.

P.S. I could help periodically Cloud, depending on the tasks needed and time available to do them
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby cloudii » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:20 pm

Hiro Hayase wrote:TLG is the only one who can add a series to the side bar on the wiki I believe. People usually email him when the new series is no longer a teaser, but a full project.


Oni and DarkoNeko are the ones who usually do it.

All sysops have rights to the sidebar.
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby Hiro Hayase » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:24 pm

cloud wrote:
Oni and DarkoNeko are the ones who usually do it.

All sysops have rights to the sidebar.


Ah in that case the rule might not be necessary anymore then as we could contact them instead.
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby cloudii » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:36 pm

Hiro Hayase wrote:P.S. I could help periodically Cloud, depending on the tasks needed and time available to do them


Any kind of writing would be helpful. xD The idea is to imagine yourself as a new member... what kind of information would you need to know if you knew absolutely nothing?

Some pages that could still probably be made:
  • How to use the Wiki. Dumb stuff. Like, how do you make new page. Upload files. Use a template. Furigana. Transcludes. Etc. (Split this from the format guidelines. IMO, format guidelines should only contain formatting guidelines. No reason to have rules and how-to's there).
  • Clean up the format guidelines so it only has information about formatting and nothing else.
  • Type up the machine translation guidelines, preview script guidelines, etc. Visual Novel Guidelines...
  • Write guidelines for where to post your OLN and how it (might) eventually get recognized and placed on the Wiki
  • Guidelines for users who got permission from an external site to copy translation as a hosted project (kinda like what happened with Log Horizon). Make a protocol for it.

...you kind of the get the idea. There's a lot of stuff that could be written. I mean, there's an entire Tutorials section and FAQ section yet to be made.

The important thing is to keep it neat and compact in one place, so it's easy to find the information you need.
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby Hiro Hayase » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:52 am

How about more stricter guidelines for wiki editing (such as anons and registered users)? In order to avoid problematic situations in the future with translators or editors or other community members. We could also describe the consequences of said actions as well as the rules.

I do want to post some updated rules of conduct for interacting with other people on the wiki and forum. For instance, discourage slander or snide remarks. Be as polite and diplomatic as you can in discussing. Know when to drop a subject and to let it go.

There are problems themselves, and there are problems because of how they have been portrayed or perceived. You can say "you look terrible in that dress" or you can also say "that dress does not compliment you." Virtually the same meaning in the end, but they probably have different outcomes. The method of delivery is very very very important in communication, even more so on the internet where non-verbal language (gestures, expressions) or tones do not exist.

The wiki stuff should be easy to write up. :D
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby cloudii » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:42 am

Hiro Hayase wrote:How about more stricter guidelines for wiki editing (such as anons and registered users)? In order to avoid problematic situations in the future with translators or editors or other community members. We could also describe the consequences of said actions as well as the rules.


Based on the prior conversation we've already had here: http://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10016&start=60#p229453

...It seem's like we've settled for vaguer rules since Project Supervisors are allowed to customize the rules to however they're like. Futhermore, not everyone agrees about the exact protocol editors should use when editing a project.

Something like this is sufficient, imo:

1). Project Supervisors have the right to define all rules for the project.
2). Project Supervisors have the final word with regards to all disputes related to the project.
3). All editors (including Translation Checkers) are expected to defer to opinion of the original translator of a chapter, in the case of any disagreements.
4). Major edits (meaning-changing) and stylistic edits should be checked with the original translator, unless specified otherwise.

There's no reason to get into the details. People can figure that out how to carry out these rules on their own. ;D But yes, consequences could be defined.
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby Cthaeh » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:11 pm

I'm going to make some general comments on the help pages, but these aren't things that should be implemented immediately, merely kept in mind as the help pages continue to take shape.


One is that there is a lot of formatting going in to the pages (big, bold, italics, colors, links, all-caps), mainly used to provide emphasis or as organization. However, there is some optimum after which the density of formatting starts detracting from clarity. It's hard to say for sure, but I think some of the denser formatting does overwhelm me a bit on some of the pages; if I had to pick an example it would be the project conventions page. That said, I haven't tried to see what it would look like if some of the formatting was dialed back or pruned, it may be optimal as is. Another way to decrease density is to add more blank lines between sections, though again, I haven't tested if that would be aesthetically pleasing or not.


Two is that there is a lot of information going in to these pages, and there are a lot of different pages. At some point the additional rules and text might make it harder to find the most important information (or in the case of readers, they'll be too lazy to go through it all). It's hard to say before all the help pages are done and organized, but it may be more effective to have a simple summary page as the first link that contains the bare-bones most useful information. What I was imagining was something like:
Spoiler! :
===Readers===
*We hope you enjoy the translations, but please be careful not to harass translators. Do not ask questions like the following, as they annoy and demotivate most translators:
:*When will X chapter be finished? (translators work at their own pace, please be patient)
:*Why is volume 7 translated before volume 6? (the translators have a reason, but they get tired of everyone asking this question)
:*Maybe one or two more common questions if you have any to add.
*If you want to propose a new project, please read these guidelines (link) and do so in the Projects Suggestion forum.
*For more information see the Reader Guidelines (link)

===Editors===
BT is a wiki and anyone is welcome to edit
*For small edits, such as typos and grammar mistakes, you are welcome to fix the text directly.
*For larger edits that change the meaning or structure of the sentence, please check with the translators or project manager using the talk pages.
*For more information see the Editor Guidelines (link)

===Translators===
Translators can start their own projects, or check on join an existing project they are interested in.
*When joining an existing project, you should notify/ask the Project Manager and add your name next to the chapter(s) you will translate on the projects's registration page. If there is no Project Manager, then just add your name to the registration page.
*When starting an new project, you should translate a chapter of that project and then create a teaser page.
*For more information see the Translator Guidelines (link)
Just so that someone can get the most useful information without having to go all the way through the more detailed pages.


Again, I'm not suggesting that these things be done immediately, I'm just providing ideas for going forward. Having these pages to refer people to will be a big help. Thanks Cloud!
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby cloudii » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:12 pm

Thanks Cthaeh for your feedback, it's much appreciated!

I have pretty bad design/artistic sense, so I completely understand when you say the formatting is overwhelming. xD I definitely did go overboard on that page. I'll see if there's ways I can minimize it. (Also, if you're talented with that kind of thing, go right ahead and edit directly ;D)

I think you bring up a really good point about the amount of content that has exponentiated. I'll try my best to keep pages from getting redundant (my biggest conundrum right now the the Contributor Guidelines vs. Project Conventions... still a lot of work to do on those), while short and sweet.

I definitely see the value of having an abridged version of the rules somewhere, kind of like a "Quick Start?" Or then again, I could cut down on the amount of content on "Getting Started" and use that more as a really simple landing page for any new member (and link the more detailed things out).
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby Cthaeh » Wed May 28, 2014 2:29 pm

Two minor bugs that I have no idea why they happen (the second in particular):

1. The last entry in the orange navbar at the top ("Contact Us") gets bumped out of the orange bar and onto the 'next line' (the lower left border of the bar) when viewed in Chrome. It looks fine in IE and Firefox.

2. The "Book creator" bar/menu appears at the top of the page on the Contributor Agreeement, Project Manager Rules, and Project Abandonment Policy pages.
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Re: Making Help Pages on Wiki

Postby cloudii » Wed May 28, 2014 3:11 pm

Cthaeh wrote:Two minor bugs that I have no idea why they happen (the second in particular):

1. The last entry in the orange navbar at the top ("Contact Us") gets bumped out of the orange bar and onto the 'next line' (the lower left border of the bar) when viewed in Chrome. It looks fine in IE and Firefox.

2. The "Book creator" bar/menu appears at the top of the page on the Contributor Agreeement, Project Manager Rules, and Project Abandonment Policy pages.


Fixed the first one... ish.

I have no idea what's with the second one. Actually, I personally don't see what you see.
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