The Kyon Theory

[AuraTwilight]

but haruhi isn't the only 'center of the haruhiverse', as there is still her better half, kyon.. back in v4, the newly-formed SOS Dan was very much the same as the original, albeit the lack of 'weirdness' in the weird characters. you make a point in saying that the SOS Dan is still very much itself even if the weird circumstances of the three and haruhi's power were removed, because haruhi isn't aware of all that. but kyon is, and that made all the difference; his hots for yuki aside, he clearly forsook yukiverse, and chose haruhiverse as his reality, because it is where he will always be able to live an interesting life..

I wouldn't call Kyon the center of the Haruhiverse.

which leads to this.. kyon is john smith, but haruhi doesn't know that. all she knows of him is that he's the epitome of normal high school student, albeit cynical and complains a lot. if haruhi was not granted a chance at making reality acknowledge her existence, would kyon be john smith in the first place?

Well, obviously not, because he'd never have time traveled.

haruhi may have created aliens, time travelers, espers, sliders, and whatnot else we find in the series. she was also at some point capable of creating reality from scratch, if not for kyon's sacrificing his first kiss for the sake of the haruhiverse. but is kyon really a normal human being? i'm not hinting at his having something to his identity parallel to yuki, mikuru, and koizumi, but there MIGHT be something to his person that puts him on a par with haruhi..

Nitpick: Haruhi never had the capability of creating reality "at some point". She always has the capability to do so, she just only tried it the one time. As for Kyon, he might not be a metaphysically normal human, but I think it's more suiting for him to be an average human made not-so-average by his connections. What's more extraordinary? God? Or the mortal that can tell God what to do?

this is me going off the deep end, so please bear with me.. haruhi's true magnum opus might very well have been kyon, not the SOS Dan, not aliens, time travelers, and espers. and perhaps, he might very well have been her obra maestra; predisposed as middle-school haruhi might be to believing in the paranormal and supernatural, the very concept of a normal human being would be her paranormal and supernatural.. she wishes to live in the world where the out-of-this-world is just around the corner - at least back then. if that were so, her concepts of 'normal' and 'abnormal' have most certainly been flipped..

I disagree. She wants John Smith because she's the only evidence she has to hang on to that there's mysterious things in the world.

if ever there really was a pre-3/4ya universe, surely haruhi was the only unique person in all of reality.. she wanted to experience everything interesting, so we come to whatever-happened-3/4ya.. however, haruhi might also have decided to bring one other unique person with her - she was very much alone before 3/4ya, so it would follow that she want to have somebody by her side as she heads off to this new reality, because other than feeling your life is meaningless, she also felt alone, that nobody ever really understood her.. (i'm thinking the hand from the sky haruhi grabbed, during the opening credits of the anime.)

I would think that causing Kyon's existence would be kind've demeaning to his entire purpose in the series.

However what does pique my interest is Haruhi's desire to recruit another person.I haven't thought out my theory yet,so I'll refrain from posting it,yet.

Agreed, that is suspicious. But knowing Haruhi, it might be as simple as wanting to snag some freshman just as she said.

[shichinanatsu]

@fiendmaw: well, who managed to bring back haruhi from isolation? who is her only connection to the real world? this is pretty much a rhetorical question, but as for who the 'avatar' of the SOS Dan is.. haruhi is the embodiment of the SOS Dan, she created the SOS Dan, but it was kyon who inspired her to rise above normalcy, advance civilization by using her genius.

and we await your theory.

@Kaisos: through the length of the series, kyon has started losing some of his cynicism, because right in front of him are the very people he wanted to believe existed before he graduated from middle school. besides, haruhi noticed kyon has had his share of believing in the supernatural like her, long before he found out the supernatural exists, else he wouldn't remind her of john smith, voice and appearance aside. (v1, the kyon-haruhi dialogue about her hair)

but if kyon really is starting to become john smith, how would the haruhiverse fair? haruhi - at least subconsciously - sees the similarity, but she couldn't quite pin it down. besides, she is having too much fun in her SOS Dan, she must have figured john smith would hear of her notoriety sooner and later and pay her another visit. haruhi can never forget about john smith, but we don't know if she still thinks about him, since again, it is only through kyon that we know haruhi..

slight topic deviation, and this is me going off a deeper end.. john smith more or less confirmed all of haruhi's beliefs, that aliens, time travelers, and espers exists. he was also the reason why haruhi chose to go to North High. if that were so - haruhi believing john smith so much - wouldn't haruhi also believe john smith really had a sister? she doesn't know that john smith's sister is asahina mikuru of course, but if haruhi really believed what he said, she might have had a hand in giving john smith a sister.

continuing, there is some part of haruhi that believes kyon is john smith. and if her powers are anything to go by, they must have given kyon a sister that would, given time, look like john smith's sister when she met him 3-4ya.. i know it sounds outright absurd, but kyon no imouto might very well be asahina mikuru..

(with that in mind, i want to know what was/were the particular character/s used to describe john smith's sister when haruhi met him (sister means older and younger in english, but older sister and younger sister have different characters in chinese and japanese..)

@Aura: haruhi's creating kyon wouldn't really demean his existence in the series.. that is, if his raison d'etre is Haruhi's mouthpiece/press secretary, which is pretty much what kyon has been doing throughout the series.

once again i accept all major comments and violent reactions..

[Kaisos Erranon]

@Kaisos: through the length of the series, kyon has started losing some of his cynicism, because right in front of him are the very people he wanted to believe existed before he graduated from middle school. besides, haruhi noticed kyon has had his share of believing in the supernatural like her, long before he found out the supernatural exists, else he wouldn't remind her of john smith, voice and appearance aside. (v1, the kyon-haruhi dialogue about her hair)

Not once has Kyon ever confirmed to Haruhi that he believes in the supernatural. Not once.

Of course, this might change, if she follows him to the junior high school reunion thing his old friends have planned to take place over the summer holidays.

His physical resemblance aside, to Haruhi, he is not John Smith.

Oh, and I highly doubt that Kyon's sister exists because of Mikuru. That's stupid.

[AuraTwilight]

@Kaisos: through the length of the series, kyon has started losing some of his cynicism, because right in front of him are the very people he wanted to believe existed before he graduated from middle school. besides, haruhi noticed kyon has had his share of believing in the supernatural like her, long before he found out the supernatural exists, else he wouldn't remind her of john smith, voice and appearance aside. (v1, the kyon-haruhi dialogue about her hair)

Not once has Kyon ever confirmed to Haruhi that he believes in the supernatural. Not once.

Of course, this might change, if she follows him to the junior high school reunion thing his old friends have planned to take place over the summer holidays.

His physical resemblance aside, to Haruhi, he is not John Smith.

Oh, and I highly doubt that Kyon's sister exists because of Mikuru. That's stupid.

I agreed. Imouto-chan and Mikuru don't even have the same damned hair color.

@Aura: haruhi's creating kyon wouldn't really demean his existence in the series.. that is, if his raison d'etre is Haruhi's mouthpiece/press secretary, which is pretty much what kyon has been doing throughout the series.

The thing is, though, is that Kyon represents Reality. He is that which Haruhi did not create, control, alter, or permit. He's not existing to be her mouthpiece, his raison d'etre is to be Haruhi's foil. It's through him that Haruhi is coming to accept reality for what it is and enjoy normal, everyday life.

[Kaisos Erranon]

The thing is, though, is that Kyon represents Reality. He is that which Haruhi did not create, control, alter, or permit. He's not existing to be her mouthpiece, his raison d'etre is to be Haruhi's foil. It's through him that Haruhi is coming to accept reality for what it is and enjoy normal, everyday life.

And it's through Haruhi that he's realizing the same thing.

[AuraTwilight]

The thing is, though, is that Kyon represents Reality. He is that which Haruhi did not create, control, alter, or permit. He's not existing to be her mouthpiece, his raison d'etre is to be Haruhi's foil. It's through him that Haruhi is coming to accept reality for what it is and enjoy normal, everyday life.

And it's through Haruhi that he's realizing the same thing.

Yes, but not in exactly the same fashion. He's also learning that it's okay to dream a little. The two are meeting each other halfway.

[cicero225]

Can't let this thread die...
In volume 8 (Wandering Shadow), Kyon speculates that humans, with their unique development of an intelligence capable of gathering and manipulating data, are the result of the merger of data entities with the ancestor of humans. To wit:

What if some data lifeforms had arrived on Earth billions and billions of years ago, and chose humans as hosts instead of dogs? What if humans had a totally different reaction to them? Is this how the early humans gained their huge intelligence leaps?

If that were the case, then all Nagato's bosses needed to do to overcome their evolutionary dead end would to be to attach some of these lifeforms onto themselves. Of course, this would mean that they hadn't achieved evolution on their own, but rather through the help of some other worldly beings.

I wonder if the Information Data Sentient Entity had actually considered that possibility before. Even though it would be against the way of nature, maybe some cosmic entities had actually infected primates billions of years ago, which in turn caused them to develop their superior intelligence and evolve to the modern human now. If that was the case, then all queries regarding evolution would have been solved.

It's a compelling theory, because it would likely explain Haruhi's emergence as the ultimate evolutionary product of such a merger. With humanity's growing familiarity and adroitness with primitive data manipulation, the recent development of computer and the internet might be likened to a state change, a sudden breaking of confining strictures. If we then postulate that the data processing "cores" of various humans are able to interact on a subconscious level with data structures (computers, the internet, even books (remember Nagato's fascination with them?)) and with each other, then this would be similar to the Jungian unconscious. In such a case, it might have been that the explosive growth of humanity's data processing ability led to the natural emergence of an entity such as Haruhi, who in such a case would be justly likened "post-human." In addition, Haruhi's subconscious might be tied to all of humanity and her angst an expression of humanity's unhappiness with the world. In that case, Kyon might be the countervailing influence of those who like the current world.
Further, in this line of reasoning, the answer to the IDSE's problems might just have been to download parts of itself into humanoid interfaces...like it has already done. Nagato has certainly evolved from her original form into something different...

Yes, yes I know, this is sounding suspiciously like crazy, new-age mysticism. But if we accept Kyon's original premise of data entity-driven evolution, then it seems plausible.

Thoughts?

[AuraTwilight]

Yes, yes I know, this is sounding suspiciously like crazy, new-age mysticism. But if we accept Kyon's original premise of data entity-driven evolution, then it seems plausible.

I was thinking more like Serial Experiments Lain, except people aren't blowing their own brains out.

[shichinanatsu]

kudos still to cicero, you're good at this comrade..

kyon's pseudo-theory in v8 is probably an offshoot/variant of the panspermia theory, that all life on Earth was seeded by beings from another world.. albeit kyon's theory leans more on said beings seeding intelligence/data manipulation..

however, sound cicero's theory may seem to be, there are still some 'loopholes' if you will.. firstly, if haruhi was indeed the probable magnum opus of those paragenetic silicon-based data lifeforms, then there should have been quite a number of people before haruhi, who exhibited her abilities to a lesser extent; if haruhi's power can be construed as a 'mutation' in the evolutionary race, then it couldn't have just 'popped' into existence, it would be more logical to think of it happening when aspects of haruhi's abilities - 'mutations' in their own right - came together and produced whatever haruhi was born with.

secondly, yuki mentioned in v1 that "nothing in this universe is unknown to them" (before Suzumiya Haruhi's data explosion). if that were the case, and if we add the fact that the jouhou tougou shinentai exists beyond the boundaries of space and time, then we could expect them to be in the know regarding the effects of interactions between human beings and data lifeforms. with that in mind, wouldn't you think it possible that yuki's creators should have come to a conclusion long ago? that all they needed to do to effect their evolution was to attach to themselves some of their more primitive brethren?

if this were indeed the case - that yuki's creators knew all along how human beings evolve mentally - then something must be holding them back from doing something about their evolutionary standstill. i'm guessing that aside from their 'suffering' - if you will - from division within their ranks (as humans are prone to do), they also 'suffer' from some sort of egocentrism, or species superiority if you will (as humans are also prone to do). they might think it allowable to be curious over humanity because they are inherently different from each other, but does this carry over to their primitive brethren, who are similar to them?

there are some more i would like to add, but at the moment they seem to need a little more brewing, so i'll hold off for now..

[fiendmaw]

Maybe Yuki's purpose is not only to observe Haruhi....
That theory may be active for all we know,and as far as Yuki goes,she does the job(very) well.
It could have been after v4 they started to realize this potential,and maybe they are making progress with it too.


(Keep wondering why they are all(up until now) females...)

[AuraTwilight]

however, sound cicero's theory may seem to be, there are still some 'loopholes' if you will.. firstly, if haruhi was indeed the probable magnum opus of those paragenetic silicon-based data lifeforms, then there should have been quite a number of people before haruhi, who exhibited her abilities to a lesser extent; if haruhi's power can be construed as a 'mutation' in the evolutionary race, then it couldn't have just 'popped' into existence, it would be more logical to think of it happening when aspects of haruhi's abilities - 'mutations' in their own right - came together and produced whatever haruhi was born with.

I disagree. Haruhi is, according to Yuki, possibly the first Technological Singularity spontaneously born in the universe. Thus, she could've just "popped" into existence. And seeing as how every human being is unique, and Haruhi's powers are directly tied to her personality and psyche, it's reasonable to assume no one like her ever existed, except for possibly Sasaki.

secondly, yuki mentioned in v1 that "nothing in this universe is unknown to them" (before Suzumiya Haruhi's data explosion). if that were the case, and if we add the fact that the jouhou tougou shinentai exists beyond the boundaries of space and time, then we could expect them to be in the know regarding the effects of interactions between human beings and data lifeforms. with that in mind, wouldn't you think it possible that yuki's creators should have come to a conclusion long ago? that all they needed to do to effect their evolution was to attach to themselves some of their more primitive brethren?

Assuming the Jouhou Tougou Shinentai aren't simply suffering from hubris or mistaken, the Power of Haruhi could've spontaneously generated from this merger. Since Haruhi herself is unpredictable, so should her birth, even if it was brought about by predictable agents. And seeing as how the Jouhou are more evolved than the entities that attached to humans, I don't think it'd have worked.

Maybe Yuki's purpose is not only to observe Haruhi....
That theory may be active for all we know,and as far as Yuki goes,she does the job(very) well.
It could have been after v4 they started to realize this potential,and maybe they are making progress with it too.


(Keep wondering why they are all(up until now) females...)

Insta-no. Yuki only did what she did by outright borrowing Haruhi's powers, and she got reprimanded for it. If her purpose was to seize Haruhi's powers, wouldn't they have been all, "Good work, report to HQ"?

[shichinanatsu]

suddenly i feel both at ease and annoyed.. at ease because i realized something, annoyed because i realized it just now..

kyon's pseudo-theory may be true in haruhi-verse, that humans underwent intellectual evolution via a communalistic/parasitic/symbiotic relationship with data lifeforms.

with that in mind, something also is happening from the other direction, if you will. ever since yuki came in contact with the SOS Dan (particularly kyon) she has been 'evolving' too, or rather, becoming more of a human being than just a humanoid interface.

so.. i guess it isn't that far to say that humans and the jouhou tougou shinentai are just what each other needs in order to effect their evolution; i.e. contact with humans gives the shinentai an opportunity at breaking through their stagnation, contact with the shinentai might give humanity a chance at intellectual advancement, possibly even data manipulation.

if you think about it, that humanity might possibly become something approaching 'post-humanity', that could be the status quo already in mikuru's era. they're probably all post-humans to some extent by then (referring to their probable 'computer'-like implants), and her unease around yuki can be attributed to her knowing that yuki is a pioneer in the joint evolution of the shinentai and humanity.

however, where does haruhi lie in all this? there is still a fat chance that the shinentai were brought about by haruhi-trapping, but if all they and humanity needed were each other, where does that put her? its a bit too early to say this, but i would venture a guess that haruhi is in fact the first post-human in haruhi-verse, not by virtue of her power, but because of her thought processes. i have said before that under normal circumstances ('normal' meaning living in a peaceful environment, in the absence of traumatic events) a 12yo rarely, if ever, comes to a conclusion like what haruhi experienced during baseball realization. and aside from that philosophical aspect of her, a 15yo haruhi has also came about to formulating the central foundation of the time plane theory.

mikuru implied that time travelers do not have to undergo the same realization as haruhi before they can understand the concepts of the time plane theory, that those concepts are taught to them; if not in an educational setting then via their 'computer'-like implants. if this is anything to go by, haruhi's mentality was already quite ahead of the rest of humanity at the time, if you subscribe to the belief that haruhi created time travelers.

that's all i wanted to say, for now..

[cicero225]

I disagree. Haruhi is, according to Yuki, possibly the first Technological Singularity spontaneously born in the universe. Thus, she could've just "popped" into existence. And seeing as how every human being is unique, and Haruhi's powers are directly tied to her personality and psyche, it's reasonable to assume no one like her ever existed, except for possibly Sasaki.

Yeah, this is what I meant. Plus I said the internet might be significant. (and rereading what I wrote...yes, it does sound exactly like Serial Experiments Lain....what was I channeling?)

Insta-no. Yuki only did what she did by outright borrowing Haruhi's powers, and she got reprimanded for it. If her purpose was to seize Haruhi's powers, wouldn't they have been all, "Good work, report to HQ"?

I think what shichinanatsu meant was that since Yuki's behavior was obviously beyond her programming, the IDSE may view the obvious changes in yuki as a sign that some unusual type of evolution is starting to take hold, which is interesting. Of course, since she actually destroyed the IDSE doing it, they probably decided it was too much of a risk and were going to remove her...until Kyon stopped them.
I also think Kyon's choice in vol 4 was a "real" one, and that Yuki's stealing of Haruhi's powers was also used to grant Kyon this measure of free will (I mean, heck, she rewrote the timeline). Hence, adult-Mikuru's nervousness and the IDSE's severe planned punishment.

[AuraTwilight]

kyon's pseudo-theory may be true in haruhi-verse, that humans underwent intellectual evolution via a communalistic/parasitic/symbiotic relationship with data lifeforms.

with that in mind, something also is happening from the other direction, if you will. ever since yuki came in contact with the SOS Dan (particularly kyon) she has been 'evolving' too, or rather, becoming more of a human being than just a humanoid interface.

so.. i guess it isn't that far to say that humans and the jouhou tougou shinentai are just what each other needs in order to effect their evolution; i.e. contact with humans gives the shinentai an opportunity at breaking through their stagnation, contact with the shinentai might give humanity a chance at intellectual advancement, possibly even data manipulation.

if you think about it, that humanity might possibly become something approaching 'post-humanity', that could be the status quo already in mikuru's era. they're probably all post-humans to some extent by then (referring to their probable 'computer'-like implants), and her unease around yuki can be attributed to her knowing that yuki is a pioneer in the joint evolution of the shinentai and humanity.

I like this idea a lot, but I would think that if Mikuru's humanity were a merger or collab of Jouhou and Human, they'd be a lot more advanced.

however, where does haruhi lie in all this? there is still a fat chance that the shinentai were brought about by haruhi-trapping, but if all they and humanity needed were each other, where does that put her? its a bit too early to say this, but i would venture a guess that haruhi is in fact the first post-human in haruhi-verse, not by virtue of her power, but because of her thought processes. i have said before that under normal circumstances ('normal' meaning living in a peaceful environment, in the absence of traumatic events) a 12yo rarely, if ever, comes to a conclusion like what haruhi experienced during baseball realization. and aside from that philosophical aspect of her, a 15yo haruhi has also came about to formulating the central foundation of the time plane theory.

mikuru implied that time travelers do not have to undergo the same realization as haruhi before they can understand the concepts of the time plane theory, that those concepts are taught to them; if not in an educational setting then via their 'computer'-like implants. if this is anything to go by, haruhi's mentality was already quite ahead of the rest of humanity at the time, if you subscribe to the belief that haruhi created time travelers.

that's all i wanted to say, for now..

Agreed.

I think what shichinanatsu meant was that since Yuki's behavior was obviously beyond her programming, the IDSE may view the obvious changes in yuki as a sign that some unusual type of evolution is starting to take hold, which is interesting. Of course, since she actually destroyed the IDSE doing it, they probably decided it was too much of a risk and were going to remove her...until Kyon stopped them.
I also think Kyon's choice in vol 4 was a "real" one, and that Yuki's stealing of Haruhi's powers was also used to grant Kyon this measure of free will (I mean, heck, she rewrote the timeline). Hence, adult-Mikuru's nervousness and the IDSE's severe planned punishment.

That I can agree with.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I like this idea a lot, but I would think that if Mikuru's humanity were a merger or collab of Jouhou and Human, they'd be a lot more advanced.

There's some evidence their bodies have been enhanced with wetware computers... that's pretty damned advanced.