Sasaki: Troubled?

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IrishHaremOtaku
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Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by IrishHaremOtaku »

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We all know that Haruhi creates Closed Space/Sealed Reality when she is angry, in a state of melancholy or jealous, however, what has not been addressed is why Sasaki (supposedly) created Sealed Reality.

When quizzed on the question, Tachibana replied that Sasaki created them for no reason at all.
However, there are a few discrepencies with that idea.

The first is that the reality would simply collapse into non-existence without a reason for existence.
In the case of Haruhi, Sealed Realities collapse once the Avatars have been eliminated, and yet we do not see the same in Sasaki's version.
While it is certainly possible that her realities can sustain themselves without Avatars or other inhabitants, it is clear that Sealed Realities are used for one purpose or another. In Haruhi's case, they're expressions of a frustration of some kind, or preliminary models of new worlds.
It is entirely inconceivable that Sasaki would have no reason to create her versions.

Another is that if Sasaki created Sealed Realities prior to losing her powers, it indicates that she is not so stable as anti-SOS Brigade seem to think.
Tachibana's opinion that she wouldn't use her powers is clearly misguided, or crafted to trick Kyon. Add to this the visible discomfort of Sasaki as they discussed the matter, and one can easily see Sasaki losing control on a similar scale to Haruhi.
I.e. if merely talking about it makes her uncomfortable, how will she handle the powers themselves?
Assuming Sasaki had said powers, is it possible Haruhi gained her powers because Sasaki didn't want them to begin with?
Last edited by IrishHaremOtaku on Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dan
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Dan »

But Sasaki didn't know Haruhi back three years ago when she supposedly gained her powers.
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AuraTwilight
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by AuraTwilight »

That shouldn't matter, Dan. For all we know, the subconscious process was, "Alright, powers, go to someone who wants you the most."

As for the idea of Closed Space needing a reason...says who? We don't really know how Haruhi's power works, much less the Closed Space behind it. We don't know if the Closed Spaces specifically need a "reason" or if Haruhi just designed her own to require the presence of Shinjin.

As for Sasaki's Closed Spaces, they're empty, as opposed to filled with native monsters and visiting espers; they're static and unchanging as opposed to Haruhi's growing, shrinking, born and dying, constantly destructive and dynamic Closed Spaces; they're visited in mind only as opposed to bodily, and time apparently runs differently.

For all we know, and given her nature is probably more likely, Sasaki created a buttload of Closed Spaces exactly as they were to the present day when she got her power, and they remained perfectly unchanged all the way to the present, not even the loss of Sasaki's power changing that.
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IrishHaremOtaku
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by IrishHaremOtaku »

AuraTwilight wrote:That shouldn't matter, Dan. For all we know, the subconscious process was, "Alright, powers, go to someone who wants you the most."

1. As for the idea of Closed Space needing a reason...says who? We don't really know how Haruhi's power works, much less the Closed Space behind it. We don't know if the Closed Spaces specifically need a "reason" or if Haruhi just designed her own to require the presence of Shinjin.

2.
As for Sasaki's Closed Spaces, they're empty, as opposed to filled with native monsters and visiting espers; they're static and unchanging as opposed to Haruhi's growing, shrinking, born and dying, constantly destructive and dynamic Closed Spaces; they're visited in mind only as opposed to bodily, and time apparently runs differently.

3.
For all we know, and given her nature is probably more likely, Sasaki created a buttload of Closed Spaces exactly as they were to the present day when she got her power, and they remained perfectly unchanged all the way to the present, not even the loss of Sasaki's power changing that.
1. Unlike our universe, Sealed Realities are artificial in nature. Therefore, the realities were created for a reason by their creators, subconsciously or otherwise, as human beings simply don't do things without a reason or purpose. The same is true of any evolved organism. True randomness in actions cannot be achieved by living things.

2. They have basic characteristics in common.
Namely, they exist in parallel to our reality, they are based on our reality, and they can only be accessed from our reality by espers (as far as we know).
That would indicate that any changes Haruhi made are additional, and not fundamental. For instance, the time and bodily-entry issues you mentioned suit Haruhi down to the ground. Haruhi wishes to leave this universe, so regular time and complete entry into the world is necessary.

Similarly, the suspension of time and the mind-only entry of Sasaki's model suit her.
Sasaki doesn't want to create a whole new world. However, it is very possible that her Closed Spaces exist as a form of escapism for her, hence its entry condition. Such a reason for existence of these spaces would also explain why they feel, for lack of a better description, "warm and fuzzy".
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

I can totally see Betaverse Sasaki gaining the powers again, going nuts, and destroying everything.

Beta was doomed the moment the Anti-SOS told Kyon the 'truth' anyway. Or the moment Yuki fell sick. Either or.
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IrishHaremOtaku
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by IrishHaremOtaku »

Kaisos Erranon wrote:I can totally see Betaverse Sasaki gaining the powers again, going nuts, and destroying everything.

Beta was doomed the moment the Anti-SOS told Kyon the 'truth' anyway. Or the moment Yuki fell sick. Either or.
She seemed extremely uncomfortable talking about it.
It is possible that she herself thinks that she would lose control.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

Then I think the question is WHY Sasaki thinks she would lose control.

Has she lost control before? Why?

What does Sasaki really want, anyway? Kyon?


Also, more crackish theorizing: Both Haruhi and Sasaki say the same thing about love, but Sasaki admits that she heard it from someone else. Who could this person be? Haruhi herself? A time traveling Kyon? (That last really would make everything Kyon's fault.)

Even more crackish theorizing: Maybe the reason everything female seems attracted to Kyon is because the world's former (or current) god made it that way?

Even more even more crackish theorizing: Maybe this entire series is just a god-powered Sasaki granting Kyon's wish to see a world composed of the fantastic.
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Darklor »

Even more even more crackish theorizing: Maybe this entire series is just a god-powered Sasaki granting Kyon's wish to see a world composed of the fantastic.
Dont think so, because I think that Sasaki was (partialy) the reason that Kyon lost his belief in the supernatural.
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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AuraTwilight
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by AuraTwilight »

1. Unlike our universe, Sealed Realities are artificial in nature. Therefore, the realities were created for a reason by their creators, subconsciously or otherwise, as human beings simply don't do things without a reason or purpose. The same is true of any evolved organism. True randomness in actions cannot be achieved by living things.
Just because her realities are artificial doesn't mean they can't exist without the "reason" or "purpose" given to them. They're not just pocket realities made by some psychokinetic girls, you understand, they're unborn universes created by deities, and are arguably as real as the current universe everyone lives in (Even if you ignore the possibility of the universe being replaced at the end of the first book, there's still three years ago). I'm sure that the Sealed Realities could hypothetically live past their purpose the same way a car can outlive it's driver, so it speak. There does seem to be ontological inertia in the Haruhiverse, but to what extent is unknown. Either way, you're imposing metaphysical absolutes onto the story that don't necessarily exist.
2. They have basic characteristics in common.
Namely, they exist in parallel to our reality, they are based on our reality, and they can only be accessed from our reality by espers (as far as we know).
That would indicate that any changes Haruhi made are additional, and not fundamental. For instance, the time and bodily-entry issues you mentioned suit Haruhi down to the ground. Haruhi wishes to leave this universe, so regular time and complete entry into the world is necessary.

Similarly, the suspension of time and the mind-only entry of Sasaki's model suit her.
Sasaki doesn't want to create a whole new world. However, it is very possible that her Closed Spaces exist as a form of escapism for her, hence its entry condition. Such a reason for existence of these spaces would also explain why they feel, for lack of a better description, "warm and fuzzy".
My point is that they're different enough that you can't assume they have the exact same nature; they weren't made by the same designers and the two haven't really shared notes, unless the power is somehow juryrigged into behaving exactly this way, which may be the case depending on how seriously we take Koizumi's Book Two speculations, but it seems that his concern about the origin of Haruhi's apotheosis was indicating Sasaki (who may be the original source of the power and, IMHO, seems intelligent and rational enough to design the universe). Sasaki's Sealed Realities refuse to change, even when their creator is no longer divine; they seem to be so static and orderly that cause and effect might not exist for them.
Then I think the question is WHY Sasaki thinks she would lose control.

Has she lost control before? Why?

What does Sasaki really want, anyway? Kyon?
She seems to be pretty ignorant of things and just going off what her Anti-SOS Brigade told her; if she lost control before, I think she would know it, unless she's responsible for that weird alien artifact thing the Brigade dug up on Valentines!

Though I believe Sasaki wants to reject godhood because it contradicts everything she stands for: Reason, Facts, Science, Cause and Effect. The power everyone wants to give her makes rubbish of all that. Espers she can understand, Time Travel she can explain, aliens she can accept. But the power to rewrite the universe in ways that the laws of the cosmos shouldn't allow? That would be like Haruhi learning from John Smith that there's nothing special in the universe.
Also, more crackish theorizing: Both Haruhi and Sasaki say the same thing about love, but Sasaki admits that she heard it from someone else. Who could this person be? Haruhi herself? A time traveling Kyon? (That last really would make everything Kyon's fault.)
A time traveling Kyon is what I suspect, as Haruhi and Sasaki don't seem to recognize each other, though it would be pretty interesting if Sasaki learned it from Haruhi in some weird, subconscious manner, such as, like, I don't know, Haruhi's only loaning Sasaki's power, and while she has it, all her subconscious thoughts are an open book to Sasaki?
Even more crackish theorizing: Maybe the reason everything female seems attracted to Kyon is because the world's former (or current) god made it that way?
And so Kyon is God.
Even more even more crackish theorizing: Maybe this entire series is just a god-powered Sasaki granting Kyon's wish to see a world composed of the fantastic.
Maybe the huge twist is that Sasaki and Haruhi are both halves of the same God, and Haruhi stole Sasaki's half and causing a cosmic inbalance!

And the unified form of both girls and thus the true form of God is Tsuruya. F*cking Time Travel.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

This discussion is starting to remind me of Bob and George what with the ridiculous paradoxes and LOL TIME TRAVEL.

Hell, Vol. 9 is opening up the alternate universe angle, which means mind-bending DIMENSIONAL mechanics are up next.

Great. Haruhi is now Bob and George.
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by quigonkenny »

IrishHaremOtaku wrote:Sasaki doesn't want to create a whole new world. However, it is very possible that her Closed Spaces exist as a form of escapism for her, hence its entry condition. Such a reason for existence of these spaces would also explain why they feel, for lack of a better description, "warm and fuzzy".
I've got a better term: "dead and creepy". Sasaki's "closed space" is different from Haruhi's because it's fake. Kyoko and/or Kuyoh is bullshotting Kyon with an outwardly more pleasant closed space (no avatars, brighter colors) so that he'll side with them. It's not going to work, at least on its own. Kyon picked up one overriding thing about Sasaki's supposed "closed space". It's dead. There's no life whatsoever. He remarks on it several times. There may be chaos in Haruhi's closed spaces, but at least there's something. Sasaki's supposed "closed space" is "a ghost town" in Kyon's own words.

I think this is because Kyoko has no powers. Think about it logically, as Sasaki would. If Sasaki is a depowered goddess-candidate and Kyoko is attuned to her as Itsuki is to Haruhi, as we have been told by the Anti-dan, then how is a powerless Sasaki going to power Kyoko enough for her to hop into closed spaces, much less how is Sasaki going to create those closed spaces in the first place? Kuyoh can still certainly be powered, because her existence is not intrinsically tied to Sasaki's existence (or Haruhi's, for that matter, depending upon whether you believe Haruhi called the data entities or created them). "Fujiwara" has a similar reason for being a powered time traveler, since he also theoretically exists "independently" of Haruhi or Sasaki. The espers, though are supposed to be intrintrinsically linked to their "goddess". Itsuki didn't gain his power until Haruhi awakened. He can sense her mood. He gains his power through interaction with her subconscious (closed spaces). If Sasaki is depowered, logically so would Kyoko.

What I believe is this. Kyoko is either a) a potential esper for Sasaki or b) a renegade Haruhi esper out to give the power to Sasaki for some reason. As either way she has logically has no power to enter Sasaki's non-existent "closed space", she enlists the help of the Canopy Domain-aligned Data Creature Kuyoh, who for some reason also wishes for Sasaki to gain Haruhi's powers (maybe to see how they can be transferred, maybe to snatch them in transit for the glory of the Canopy Domain, etc.). If Kuyoh is half as powerful as Yuki, she can create a limited "Sasaki Closed Space" in her sleep, or at least a reasonable facsimile good enough to fool Kyon (remember Yuki and the giant cricket?). Problem is, as Kuyoh is obviously not quite as...all there...as Nagato and the other Data Overmind interfaces are, her work is flawed. Kyon, and the readers, realize that it's just a bit...off.
AuraTwilight wrote:
Also, more crackish theorizing: Both Haruhi and Sasaki say the same thing about love, but Sasaki admits that she heard it from someone else. Who could this person be? Haruhi herself? A time traveling Kyon? (That last really would make everything Kyon's fault.)
A time traveling Kyon is what I suspect, as Haruhi and Sasaki don't seem to recognize each other, though it would be pretty interesting if Sasaki learned it from Haruhi in some weird, subconscious manner, such as, like, I don't know, Haruhi's only loaning Sasaki's power, and while she has it, all her subconscious thoughts are an open book to Sasaki?
Way back when our protagonists were very young, maybe 3 or 4, they were all playing unrelatedly in a sandbox on the grounds of Kyon's grandmother's hotel. Loli!Sasaki and loli!Haruhi both heard another girl say the line to a boy (it was loli!Tsuruya saying it to shouta!Kyon, but that's neither here not there). Eventually they all forgot each other, loli!Haruhi moved away temporarily, and loli!Tsuruya gave her stuffed Bonta-kun to loli!Sasaki.
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Darklor »

I believe the "closed space/sealed reality" represent their mental state. (If Sasakis isnt made up) I think hers is warm und bright because she isnt unlucky with her life and the world around her and accept it as it is, while Haruhis is dark because she is depressed about how boring the world is and her Avatars react to her strong emotions frustration or lately confusion. (And maybe she has the Avatars because she know, that she must do something about it (destroy and recreate it to her liking), while since Sasaki didnt saw a reason to change the world has an empty forever unchanging "sealed reality".
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by AuraTwilight »

This discussion is starting to remind me of Bob and George what with the ridiculous paradoxes and LOL TIME TRAVEL.

Hell, Vol. 9 is opening up the alternate universe angle, which means mind-bending DIMENSIONAL mechanics are up next.

Great. Haruhi is now Bob and George.
Bobwin's Law: Any story involving time travel as a main plot element will inevitably turn into Bob and George.
I think this is because Kyoko has no powers. Think about it logically, as Sasaki would. If Sasaki is a depowered goddess-candidate and Kyoko is attuned to her as Itsuki is to Haruhi, as we have been told by the Anti-dan, then how is a powerless Sasaki going to power Kyoko enough for her to hop into closed spaces, much less how is Sasaki going to create those closed spaces in the first place? Kuyoh can still certainly be powered, because her existence is not intrinsically tied to Sasaki's existence (or Haruhi's, for that matter, depending upon whether you believe Haruhi called the data entities or created them). "Fujiwara" has a similar reason for being a powered time traveler, since he also theoretically exists "independently" of Haruhi or Sasaki. The espers, though are supposed to be intrintrinsically linked to their "goddess". Itsuki didn't gain his power until Haruhi awakened. He can sense her mood. He gains his power through interaction with her subconscious (closed spaces). If Sasaki is depowered, logically so would Kyoko.
I'm sorry, this doesn't mesh with metaphysical precedent in the series. Haruhi wants there to be Espers, so Kyoko doesn't necessarily need to power down along with her Goddess. Besides, Kyoko DOES have powers, otherwise she can't be Itsuki's parallel. Otherwise Koizumi wouldn't so blatantly describe her as a rival. Otherwise Kyon wouldn't be able to comment on Sasaki's Closed Space. If Sasaki's Closed Spaces exist independent of her continued divinity, so can her Espers. Either A) The Closed Spaces are real and so is Kyoko's powers, or B) the Closed Spaces are illusions and Kyoko is an Esper with the power to generate illusions.
What I believe is this. Kyoko is either a) a potential esper for Sasaki or b) a renegade Haruhi esper out to give the power to Sasaki for some reason. As either way she has logically has no power to enter Sasaki's non-existent "closed space", she enlists the help of the Canopy Domain-aligned Data Creature Kuyoh, who for some reason also wishes for Sasaki to gain Haruhi's powers (maybe to see how they can be transferred, maybe to snatch them in transit for the glory of the Canopy Domain, etc.). If Kuyoh is half as powerful as Yuki, she can create a limited "Sasaki Closed Space" in her sleep, or at least a reasonable facsimile good enough to fool Kyon (remember Yuki and the giant cricket?). Problem is, as Kuyoh is obviously not quite as...all there...as Nagato and the other Data Overmind interfaces are, her work is flawed. Kyon, and the readers, realize that it's just a bit...off.
I suppose Kuyoh could be responsible, but I think given what she's demonstrated, any illusions she crafted would be COMPLETELY unconvincing given her lack of understanding of the human psyche. You forget that there are Espers that aren't "affiliated" with any Goddess and have other sorts of powers. Remember Charmed at First Sight LOVER?
Way back when our protagonists were very young, maybe 3 or 4, they were all playing unrelatedly in a sandbox on the grounds of Kyon's grandmother's hotel. Loli!Sasaki and loli!Haruhi both heard another girl say the line to a boy (it was loli!Tsuruya saying it to shouta!Kyon, but that's neither here not there). Eventually they all forgot each other, loli!Haruhi moved away temporarily, and loli!Tsuruya gave her stuffed Bonta-kun to loli!Sasaki.
Or atleast, this is the excuse Kyon makes up in his "Recovered" memories to hide the fact that he's God. Or that's what he's lead to believe in order to keep the real God from waking up: Taniguchi.
I believe the "closed space/sealed reality" represent their mental state. (If Sasakis isnt made up) I think hers is warm und bright because she isnt unlucky with her life and the world around her and accept it as it is, while Haruhis is dark because she is depressed about how boring the world is and her Avatars react to her strong emotions frustration or lately confusion. (And maybe she has the Avatars because she know, that she must do something about it (destroy and recreate it to her liking), while since Sasaki didnt saw a reason to change the world has an empty forever unchanging "sealed reality".
While I agree with your basic point, I think it's less "One is happy with life, the other isn't". Haruhi's had a wonderful life that people would giddily trade for. The difference is that Haruhi wants the impossible, and Sasaki is perfectly fine with wanting to understand and intellectually conquer the mysteries of the real, normal world. This is exactly why Kyoko wants to make Sasaki God, assuming she's telling the truth: Sasaki likes the normal, science-governed world, so she wouldn't be making selfish changes like Haruhi does. But this is also exactly why Sasaki doesn't want the power, and why it might drive her insane.
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IrishHaremOtaku
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by IrishHaremOtaku »

AuraTwilight wrote:
1. Unlike our universe, Sealed Realities are artificial in nature. Therefore, the realities were created for a reason by their creators, subconsciously or otherwise, as human beings simply don't do things without a reason or purpose. The same is true of any evolved organism. True randomness in actions cannot be achieved by living things.
Just because her realities are artificial doesn't mean they can't exist without the "reason" or "purpose" given to them. They're not just pocket realities made by some psychokinetic girls, you understand, they're unborn universes created by deities, and are arguably as real as the current universe everyone lives in (Even if you ignore the possibility of the universe being replaced at the end of the first book, there's still three years ago). I'm sure that the Sealed Realities could hypothetically live past their purpose the same way a car can outlive it's driver, so it speak. There does seem to be ontological inertia in the Haruhiverse, but to what extent is unknown. Either way, you're imposing metaphysical absolutes onto the story that don't necessarily exist.
2. They have basic characteristics in common.
Namely, they exist in parallel to our reality, they are based on our reality, and they can only be accessed from our reality by espers (as far as we know).
That would indicate that any changes Haruhi made are additional, and not fundamental. For instance, the time and bodily-entry issues you mentioned suit Haruhi down to the ground. Haruhi wishes to leave this universe, so regular time and complete entry into the world is necessary.

Similarly, the suspension of time and the mind-only entry of Sasaki's model suit her.
Sasaki doesn't want to create a whole new world. However, it is very possible that her Closed Spaces exist as a form of escapism for her, hence its entry condition. Such a reason for existence of these spaces would also explain why they feel, for lack of a better description, "warm and fuzzy".
My point is that they're different enough that you can't assume they have the exact same nature; they weren't made by the same designers and the two haven't really shared notes, unless the power is somehow juryrigged into behaving exactly this way, which may be the case depending on how seriously we take Koizumi's Book Two speculations, but it seems that his concern about the origin of Haruhi's apotheosis was indicating Sasaki (who may be the original source of the power and, IMHO, seems intelligent and rational enough to design the universe). Sasaki's Sealed Realities refuse to change, even when their creator is no longer divine; they seem to be so static and orderly that cause and effect might not exist for them.
They do not have to have a reason to exist continually, but as they were created by humans (albeit with considerable powers), they must have been created for a reason that is deeply rooted in the psychological profiles of their creators. This is certainly the case for Haruhi, and plausible for Sasaki, given the characteristics of the alternative realities. For Haruhi, as I have said and Koizomi has said, Haruhi creates Closed Space when frustrated.
In Sasaki's case, there are a number of possible reasons for creating them that would fit her psychological profile, namely curiosity, boredom or escapism.
Needless to say, creating a world out of curiosity, boredom or the need for an escape from reality is not what the anti-SOS brigade believe happened.

I never implied they had the exact same nature, I said they had several fundamentals in common, which suggests that Haruhi based her version on Sasaki's, either because she had to due to physical restraints on doing otherwise, or intuitive subconscious design. Again, adding monsters and a different method of entry would not be a major change, because of their shared fundamentals, regardless of how exactly they came to be similar.

We have come to a critical point here now thanks to your points:
If Sasaki created her closed spaces consciously or according to her nature subconsciously, that means she is just a big a threat to the continued existence of our universe as Haruhi is, potentially.

If Sasaki created them for no reason, that implies that she had no control over their creation, which means she is potentially a bigger threat than Haruhi, as Haruhi's powers are firmly linked to her whims. If she managed to create something for no reason, it would imply her control of her powers is extremely weak compared to Haruhi.

All of this, is of course assuming that Sasaki had the powers previously at all.
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

quigonkenny wrote: What I believe is this. Kyoko is either a) a potential esper for Sasaki or b) a renegade Haruhi esper out to give the power to Sasaki for some reason.
Isn't b) exactly what the books say?
quigonkenny wrote: Way back when our protagonists were very young, maybe 3 or 4, they were all playing unrelatedly in a sandbox on the grounds of Kyon's grandmother's hotel. Loli!Sasaki and loli!Haruhi both heard another girl say the line to a boy (it was loli!Tsuruya saying it to shouta!Kyon, but that's neither here not there). Eventually they all forgot each other, loli!Haruhi moved away temporarily, and loli!Tsuruya gave her stuffed Bonta-kun to loli!Sasaki.
I can totally see something like this being true.

Also I'm betting that's an FMP reference but I need to actually watch that someday.
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