Sasaki: Troubled?

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b0mb3r
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by b0mb3r »

quigonkenny wrote: Way back when our protagonists were very young, maybe 3 or 4, they were all playing unrelatedly in a sandbox on the grounds of Kyon's grandmother's hotel. Loli!Sasaki and loli!Haruhi both heard another girl say the line to a boy (it was loli!Tsuruya saying it to shouta!Kyon, but that's neither here not there). Eventually they all forgot each other, loli!Haruhi moved away temporarily, and loli!Tsuruya gave her stuffed Bonta-kun to loli!Sasaki.
I can totally see something like this being true.

Also I'm betting that's an FMP reference but I need to actually watch that someday.
i get more of a love hina ribe from this quote
.
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AuraTwilight
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by AuraTwilight »

They do not have to have a reason to exist continually, but as they were created by humans (albeit with considerable powers), they must have been created for a reason that is deeply rooted in the psychological profiles of their creators. This is certainly the case for Haruhi, and plausible for Sasaki, given the characteristics of the alternative realities. For Haruhi, as I have said and Koizomi has said, Haruhi creates Closed Space when frustrated.
In Sasaki's case, there are a number of possible reasons for creating them that would fit her psychological profile, namely curiosity, boredom or escapism.
Needless to say, creating a world out of curiosity, boredom or the need for an escape from reality is not what the anti-SOS brigade believe happened.
Sasaki doesn't seem bored or that she wants to escape from reality, even briefly. If that was the case, she'd be Haruhi. And she doesn't seem curious about things that contradict her scientific paradigm. Most likely, they just came into existence spontaneously all at once as a result of her own Apotheosis or something, and wasn't even a subconscious act.

Or Kyoko is lying out her ass.
I never implied they had the exact same nature, I said they had several fundamentals in common, which suggests that Haruhi based her version on Sasaki's, either because she had to due to physical restraints on doing otherwise, or intuitive subconscious design. Again, adding monsters and a different method of entry would not be a major change, because of their shared fundamentals, regardless of how exactly they came to be similar.

We have come to a critical point here now thanks to your points:
If Sasaki created her closed spaces consciously or according to her nature subconsciously, that means she is just a big a threat to the continued existence of our universe as Haruhi is, potentially.

If Sasaki created them for no reason, that implies that she had no control over their creation, which means she is potentially a bigger threat than Haruhi, as Haruhi's powers are firmly linked to her whims. If she managed to create something for no reason, it would imply her control of her powers is extremely weak compared to Haruhi.

All of this, is of course assuming that Sasaki had the powers previously at all.
While your logic works, and I agree Sasaki is probably a bigger threat, I disagree with the way to the conclusion. While Sasaki created her Closed Spaces without reason/automatically/whatever, they do not expand or change in any way, and they do not threaten the real world in any way, shape, or form. But the implication is much worse than the more immediate threat of a Closed Space engulfing the universe: Sasaki's Closed Spaces are perfect stillness. In other words, a Newtonian sort of clockwork universe where no dynamicism or change is the perfect world for Sasaki. Hers is a world without a future and a world without fun.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

AuraTwilight wrote:In other words, a Newtonian sort of clockwork universe where no dynamicism or change is the perfect world for Sasaki. Hers is a world without a future and a world without fun.
...That was almost poetic. Thank you.

Yeah, this is exactly how Sasaki views the world, and the reason why a god of change and Chaos is probably preferable to a god of stagnation and Law.

Of course, neither would be better, but at least Haruhi is growing up a bit.
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quigonkenny
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by quigonkenny »

b0mb3r wrote:
I can totally see something like this being true.

Also I'm betting that's an FMP reference but I need to actually watch that someday.
i get more of a love hina ribe from this quote
And we have a winner... Threw in the Bonta-kun doll as a KyoAni reference, as that is exactly the kind of thing they'd do if they were to recast Love Hina's sandbox promise flashback with Haruhiverse characters. Didn't expect it to throw anyone off considering the enduring legacy (assumed, I guess) of LH.

Kaisos, your homework for this week is to go watch all of Love Hina (OVAs included, or you might not get the above reference) and say "Ohhh, that's where that's from..." any time you see a staple harem anime trope. Because chances are, that actually is where it's from (or at least where it gained prominence). If not there, then Ranma or Tenchi...

But watch FMP! first. All three series and especially the Tessa OVA (f**k K-on sideways with a 2x4, that is KyoAni moe fanservice at its absolute best—at least until August). I can't believe you haven't seen it yet. Shame on you. ^_^
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

quigonkenny wrote: Kaisos, your homework for this week is to go watch all of Love Hina (OVAs included, or you might not get the above reference) and say "Ohhh, that's where that's from..." any time you see a staple harem anime trope. Because chances are, that actually is where it's from (or at least where it gained prominence). If not there, then Ranma or Tenchi...
But, but, I'm not really interested in harem at all. School Days killed it for me, and I consider that a good thing.
quigonkenny wrote: But watch FMP! first. All three series and especially the Tessa OVA (f**k K-on sideways with a 2x4, that is KyoAni moe fanservice at its absolute best—at least until August). I can't believe you haven't seen it yet. Shame on you. ^_^
I've been meaning to for ages. It IS KyoAni and Gonzo-when-they-didn't-suck-and-were-awesome-instead, after all.

And yeah K-On sucks balls. I hope it dies in like three months like Lucky Star did like a year after it came out.
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by quigonkenny »

Kaisos Erranon wrote:
quigonkenny wrote: Kaisos, your homework for this week is to go watch all of Love Hina (OVAs included, or you might not get the above reference) and say "Ohhh, that's where that's from..." any time you see a staple harem anime trope. Because chances are, that actually is where it's from (or at least where it gained prominence). If not there, then Ranma or Tenchi...
But, but, I'm not really interested in harem at all. School Days killed it for me, and I consider that a good thing.
Okay, I'm modifying your assignment. Now you need to see Love Hina first, so that you can see what harem really is, as demonstrated by its almighty master, Ken Akamatsu. The School Days protagonist had a harem, yes, but that show was about as much a harem anime as Higurashi was a school life anime.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

quigonkenny wrote: Okay, I'm modifying your assignment. Now you need to see Love Hina first, so that you can see what harem really is, as demonstrated by its almighty master, Ken Akamatsu. The School Days protagonist had a harem, yes, but that show was about as much a harem anime as Higurashi was a school life anime.
Wouldn't it be better to just read the manga?
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AuraTwilight
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by AuraTwilight »

...That was almost poetic. Thank you.

Yeah, this is exactly how Sasaki views the world, and the reason why a god of change and Chaos is probably preferable to a god of stagnation and Law.

Of course, neither would be better, but at least Haruhi is growing up a bit.
Agreed, and thank you.

Also, it could be said that the Yukiverse is stagnation and law, considering it's nature, and that Kyon already rejected Sasaki before he was even offered the choice. Bam, bitches!
And yeah K-On sucks balls. I hope it dies in like three months like Lucky Star did like a year after it came out.
What's wrong with it? K-On isn't the best thing to come out of K-On, but it's worth watching.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

AuraTwilight wrote: What's wrong with it? K-On isn't the best thing to come out of K-On, but it's worth watching.
If you consider diabetes-level sickeningly cute girls do incredibly pointless things worth watching, sure.

I don't know about you, but I like my anime to at least have some semblance of a plot... >_>
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Darklor »

Or read "Magister Negi Magi" I would call that really a Harem :mrgreen: (I could stand till now only the first 2 books out of the series, but maybe I get another ones if enough time has passed (because I like his drawing style ;))

I think K-On is fun watching and its a good contrast to Asura Cryin. ;)

and back to topic -
They do not have to have a reason to exist continually
For what Koizumi said Haruhis would expand till it surrounds the world complete, as long as there exist her Avatars in there or was it as long as they go on a rampage? So if Sasakis never had Avatars in there and her "closed space/sealed realitys" continue to exist forever - thats creepy (somehow for me). At least we know that against Haruhis "closed space/ sealed realitys" exist an "antidote" - destroy the Avatars.
Haruhi creates Closed Space when frustrated
because of boredom and lately when confused, because of her conflicting emotions. If she is happy then there are fewer till none.

So if Sasaki did create hers as she was happy (or not unhappy) what would explain why hers a warm and bright (and maybe have also no reason for expanding), than I think I dont want to see her "closed space" when she is unhappy sometime. (Because I dont think anyone could stop it from expanding including Kyon since he has not that strong bonding to her.)
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

Darklor

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Ambi Valent
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Ambi Valent »

The more I think about it, the more I think the "bright closed spaces" are actually Haruhi's, and Sasaki never had any power at all. Even worse, Sasaki probably didn't even exist in Kyon's world before Haruhi created/transported her there.

The world is (relatively) new to Sasaki, so she continues to be fascinated by it, and can't stop asking questions about it - and doing that she got Kyon to appreciate the real world, too. Haruhi, on the other hand, sees the world just as normal and boring, or at least did so before forming the SOS-dan. I think that's the reason Sasaki and Haruhi seem like opposites, but when looking closer, Haruhi had been moving towards normal for quite some time.

Koizumi even said so in "Dissociation", and pointed out Haruhi's "closed spaces" had changed. So such a change could have happened before already, when Haruhi was looking for another world... the first attempts probably collapsed, the ones after that were stable but boring (like the one Kyoko showed Kyon), and after that, they could contain life. We're used to the thought Haruhi creates them only when she's in a bad mood, but that may just because those moods make her wish for another world, rather than living in the present one.

I think what confused the renegades is this change over time, and so they looked for another creator, and only found Sasaki, who seemed to be the character opposite of Haruhi but had no powers. I think Haruhi still wields all the power, unless she chooses to give them up... and I think that's what happens in "Dissociation" when Kyon meets Sasaki and the renegades - Haruhi tries to be more like Sasaki because she thinks that's what attracts Kyon. And that's what's weakening Yuki, not some attack by Kuyoh - Kuyoh exists in both timelines, but the meeting only happens in one.
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AuraTwilight
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by AuraTwilight »

If you consider diabetes-level sickeningly cute girls do incredibly pointless things worth watching, sure.

I don't know about you, but I like my anime to at least have some semblance of a plot... >_>
It's a comedy/slice of life thing. The plot is that they're an amateur rock band. >_>
The more I think about it, the more I think the "bright closed spaces" are actually Haruhi's, and Sasaki never had any power at all. Even worse, Sasaki probably didn't even exist in Kyon's world before Haruhi created/transported her there.
That's a fun theory. But why would Haruhi create the bright Closed Spaces? They don't fit her M.O. at all, unless she created them as "evidence" for Sasaki's candidacy so that Haruhi could have a proper love rival.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

AuraTwilight wrote: It's a comedy/slice of life thing. The plot is that they're an amateur rock band. >_>
Azumanga was comedy/slice-of-life without resorting to sickening levels of moe. Azumanga was also one of the most entertaining anime I've ever watched.

And yes. An amateur rock band that almost never plays music. Woo.
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Rectifier
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by Rectifier »

Kaisos Erranon wrote:An amateur rock band that almost never plays music. Woo.
Pff, amateurs.
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quigonkenny
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Re: Sasaki: Troubled?

Post by quigonkenny »

AuraTwilight wrote:
If you consider diabetes-level sickeningly cute girls do incredibly pointless things worth watching, sure.

I don't know about you, but I like my anime to at least have some semblance of a plot... >_>
It's a comedy/slice of life thing. The plot is that they're an amateur rock band. >_>
That's not a plot. It's a premise.
Ambi Valent wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think the "bright closed spaces" are actually Haruhi's, and Sasaki never had any power at all. Even worse, Sasaki probably didn't even exist in Kyon's world before Haruhi created/transported her there.

The world is (relatively) new to Sasaki, so she continues to be fascinated by it, and can't stop asking questions about it - and doing that she got Kyon to appreciate the real world, too. Haruhi, on the other hand, sees the world just as normal and boring, or at least did so before forming the SOS-dan. I think that's the reason Sasaki and Haruhi seem like opposites, but when looking closer, Haruhi had been moving towards normal for quite some time.

Koizumi even said so in "Dissociation", and pointed out Haruhi's "closed spaces" had changed. So such a change could have happened before already, when Haruhi was looking for another world... the first attempts probably collapsed, the ones after that were stable but boring (like the one Kyoko showed Kyon), and after that, they could contain life. We're used to the thought Haruhi creates them only when she's in a bad mood, but that may just because those moods make her wish for another world, rather than living in the present one.

I think what confused the renegades is this change over time, and so they looked for another creator, and only found Sasaki, who seemed to be the character opposite of Haruhi but had no powers. I think Haruhi still wields all the power, unless she chooses to give them up... and I think that's what happens in "Dissociation" when Kyon meets Sasaki and the renegades - Haruhi tries to be more like Sasaki because she thinks that's what attracts Kyon. And that's what's weakening Yuki, not some attack by Kuyoh - Kuyoh exists in both timelines, but the meeting only happens in one.
I'm pretty sure Sasaki existed beforehand. There's too much foreshadowing of her (Kyon's first "weird girl"). Although that does not preclude Haruhi subconsciously "remapping" her into a rival once she hears about her.

And I'm curious how the best evidence for a Kuyoh cause of Yuki's illness—the fact that the meeting with the Anti-dan, and thus Kuyoh's interaction with Kimidori, occurs in the same timeline—is evidence that Haruhi, who didn't even know about the meeting, has given up her powers and that is what is weakening Yuki. After all, we've already seen Yuki display the same symptoms due to an attack by the Canopy Domain back in SMS. Why would there be a different cause now?
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