The Kyon Theory

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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by Rectifier »

Agreed, dead topic is dead.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by shichinanatsu »

think of this as spam, (or necro-post, if you prefer the latter less) masquerading as a time capsule for when v10 comes out..

v10 will be totally split in two, similar to how v9 was post-chapter 1. in alpha-timeline life goes on as normal, only there will be increasing instances of haruhi spending time with kyon, with tutoring him for an alibi. a 'happily ever after' ending is plausible for alpha-timeline, in which case the SOS Dan all end up in the same university.

as for beta-timeline, kyon will have to deal with spending less and less time with haruhi. the obvious reason being going to juku with sasaki, the underlying reason being wanting to spend some time checking out sasaki's 'minions' (and just being with sasaki, if it came to pushing it). of course, this would lead to kyon leaving the SOS Dan and ending up someplace else with sasaki, since haruhi will have matured by then (by virtue of kyon's transience) as to ease up on the escapism.

i am fully aware that this is highly unlikely, since sasaki is albeit a character too fresh to equally compete with haruhi..

anyway, feel free to prove me wrong, once v10 comes out...

*never thought that writing a fic for merging seitenkan and normal haruhi-verse would be such a pain.. been at it for 5 months and i'm barely halfway.. and ff seems to have been acting up since the last 2 months it seems..
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

I have doubts that Vol. 10 will end the series, simply because a lot of the character development isn't "done" yet.

And there's that damned Chekov's Gun of a metal rod that Kyon found and gave to Tsuruya...

And then there's the slow, slow reveal of Adult Mikuru's true intentions...
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by quigonkenny »

shichinanatsu wrote:think of this as spam, (or necro-post, if you prefer the latter less) masquerading as a time capsule for when v10 comes out..

v10 will be totally split in two, similar to how v9 was post-chapter 1. in alpha-timeline life goes on as normal, only there will be increasing instances of haruhi spending time with kyon, with tutoring him for an alibi. a 'happily ever after' ending is plausible for alpha-timeline, in which case the SOS Dan all end up in the same university.

as for beta-timeline, kyon will have to deal with spending less and less time with haruhi. the obvious reason being going to juku with sasaki, the underlying reason being wanting to spend some time checking out sasaki's 'minions' (and just being with sasaki, if it came to pushing it). of course, this would lead to kyon leaving the SOS Dan and ending up someplace else with sasaki, since haruhi will have matured by then (by virtue of kyon's transience) as to ease up on the escapism.

i am fully aware that this is highly unlikely, since sasaki is albeit a character too fresh to equally compete with haruhi..

anyway, feel free to prove me wrong, once v10 comes out...

*never thought that writing a fic for merging seitenkan and normal haruhi-verse would be such a pain.. been at it for 5 months and i'm barely halfway.. and ff seems to have been acting up since the last 2 months it seems..
Speaking of necro-posts, my theory for Volume 10 is better... ^_^
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by Darklor »

Long live the dead! :twisted:

I am also one, who dont think that it cant be that Kyon is a complete normal guy. All of his wishes (for espers, timetraveller, aliens and adventures and more) came true and he know it, what is more as Haruhi have. If he have not some (hidden/lost) power of his own so I think he is at least a catalyst maybe even for the events before the first year of the highschool begins. And we can call him a timetraveller in his own right, even if it was tandem and only shorttimetravel, but it was at least timetravel. ;)

(Some more of my speculations can be found here)
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by Ambi Valent »

My theory about Kyon is that he didn't have those wishes before he met Haruhi. They are the results of him meeting her. (He probably read the manga where such stuff happens, but many people do so)

In the years before the two meet, Haruhi uses her power to make stuff happen, maxes her stats (excelling in sports, in school, and in any club she joins, and she's beautiful as well). Meanwhile, nothing mysterious happens to Kyon. So why does Haruhi pick Kyon? Because he kept talking to her, in a way other boys wouldn't. That's a consistent part of his character from even before meeting Haruhi. Kyon was friends with Sasaki, not boyfriend and girlfriend like others (including Kunikida) thought. He was very kind to Miyoko,
Spoiler! :
treating her as an equal although she was several years younger.
And he likes to make the girls he meets feel comfortable, he befriends them instead of treating them as "date material" in the way Taniguchi would. And he kept on talking to Haruhi when everyone else had given up, even though she occasionally put him down. This empathy is what made him special among his peers... although for Haruhi, it might feel as some strange power because it's the one thing she cannot understand or emulate.

If you ask how Kyon's seeming obsession with Mikuru fits in here... well, Kyon is still a teenager with lots of hormones. He will like to see her in her various costumes... but he hates seeing her getting hurt. When he has to choose between his desires and his conscience, he puts himself second. This also shows in "Vanishment" where he doesn't go the easy way of
Spoiler! :
accepting the human Yuki as girlfriend (who absolutely adores him), but is ready to "stare down Cthulhu" for his friend Nagato later, despite of her actions.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by shichinanatsu »

welcome to Baka-Tsuki! :lol: and kudos to your guts in actually making your debut in a thread that's way out in left field..

@Darklor: i managed to go through your other post, and alongside your post here i've had to stop and think. some of your ideas have already been posted here by guys who've been here longer than yours truly, but of course there's no harm in speaking your mind. let's see, (rummages through my post history) the accepted canon is that there is no realistic date whatsoever that would fit the bill of SHnY's timeline. probably the closest thing we've come across to an accurate guess was a post of mine, based from another SH fansite i can't remember for the life of me. admittedly though, my guess was debunked by facts stated by Smidge204, a veteran who i haven't seen for quite some time now.

also, that part in the anime OP wherein haruhi grabs the proverbial hand-from-the-sky, is something that's been speculated on for quite sometime - back in '06 and '07 when it was still relatively popular. fanon dictates that hand belongs to kyon, albeit which version was never fully agreed on (john smith who met haruhi, current kyon, future kyon..)

your thoughts regarding the split in v9 have also suffered the scrutiny of translators, editors, and fans in this thread. do feel free to look through the archives, you might give the topic a new perspective.

@Ambi Valent: your line of thought's a nice one, in that kyon can level with girls, in a way that means ungendered interest, and not the rather one-track approach of taniguchi. i also see this in some of KyoAni's other titles, Yuuichi of Kanon probably comes closest (as Yukito of Air gives off a work-to-live, no-time-for-others aura, while Tomoya of Clannad used to have a somewhat-self-destructive streak on him.)

problem with this lies in the genre.. you usually see this kind of behavior in story- (specifically drama-) centered visual novels. (they don't necessarily have to be h-games) SHnY, on the other hand, is a light novel that on the surface deals with growing up, the gap between the self and others, and how to reconcile that along the way. as such, any interest in the other girls on kyon's part is likely to ONLY be portrayed in a platonic fashion - rather than romantic, as most fans would have it.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by AuraTwilight »

My theory about Kyon is that he didn't have those wishes before he met Haruhi. They are the results of him meeting her. (He probably read the manga where such stuff happens, but many people do so)
This makes little sense. You're telling me that he meets Haruhi, so she alters his wishes and makes him think he's always had them? This is problematic from a narrative point of view even if you ignore that Haruhi's not the type of person to use mind control, subconsciously or not.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by fiendmaw »

Wow,my favourite part of this forum has been revived!Banzai!

About Haruhi taking interest in Kyon,well,according to an old post I made(way back),is that she sees a bit of John Smith in him,which piques her interest.
Saying that,I have to share my thoughts on the relation between Haruhi and John Smith,I believe right now,she is searching for him,but she doesn't prioritize that(or maybe she does).It may be feelings of love,can't really tell,but all her action are influenced by J.Smith,like going to North High,when,in v4,she clearly goes to another school,hinting that she somehow lost interest.
Ah nevermind I'll just copy what I posted :twisted:
Spoiler! :
Someone must have said this before,but I'll say it again just for the sake of it:

In my 'vision' Kyon isn't at fault for not being together(yet) with Haruhi.
And it isn't Haruhi's brain or anything that's causing the gap...but it's our old friend 'John Smith'(Yes,he is Kyon but he's a different person in Haruhi's view.)
To put it short Haruhi might have fallen in love with this mysterious guy,beacause he might be the only one she had a 'normal' conversation about her 'passions',and he helped her do her hieroglyphics to boot.
Now back to our time,Haruhi(maybe in love with him)comes to North High,her only clue about him,and there she finds this annoying and simple guy by the name of 'Nagaru-san enter name here pls',he's very annoying but something about him feels nostalgic,she asks him if they met before,he casually and seriously replies that they didn't.But yet something isn't right with his fellow,so she decides to loosen up on him.
Right now probably Haruhi is confused because Kyon is very much like the John Smith from her childhood,a fact she didn't encounter at her other boyfriends.

In conclusion Haruhi may be trying to find out information about 'John Smith' ,in secret ofcourse,and doesn't know what to do about Kyon,who resembles him very much,yet logic dictates he can't be the real thing.
It is possible that Haruhi has been doing all this stuff to get attention so that 'John Smith' may come and say hi.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by Darklor »

Ambi Valent wrote:My theory about Kyon is that he didn't have those wishes before he met Haruhi. They are the results of him meeting her. (He probably read the manga where such stuff happens, but many people do so)
Spoiler! :
However, it took me quite a bit longer to realize that the aliens, time-travelers, ghosts, monsters and espers in those effects-filled 'good guys versus evil organization' cartoons didn't actually exist either. No, wait, I probably did realize, I just didn't want to admit it. Deep inside my heart, I still wanted those aliens, time-travelers, ghosts, monsters, espers and evil organizations to suddenly appear. Compared to this boring, normal life of mine, the world of those flashy shows was much more exciting; I wanted to live in that world, too!

I wanted to be the one who saved the girl kidnapped by aliens and imprisoned in a bowl-like fortress. I wanted to be the one who used my courage, intelligence, and trusty laser gun to fight against villains from the future trying to change history for their own gain. I wanted to be someone who could banish demons and monsters with a single spell, battle against mutants or psychics from evil organizations, and engage in telepathic fights!

But, wait, calm down. If I really were ever attacked by aliens or whatever, how could I ever possibly fight against them? I don't even have any special powers!

Well then, how about this: one day, a mysterious new student transfers to my class. Except he's really an alien or from the future, and he has telepathic abilities. When he gets into a fight with the bad guys, all I need to do is find a way to get involved in his war. He'll handle all the fighting and I can just be his flunky sidekick. Oh my god, this is great, I am so clever!

Or, maybe, if that doesn't work, how about this: one day, a mysterious power inside me awakens, something like a telekinetic or psychic ability. I discover that a lot of other people in this world also have similar powers, and, then, some sort of paranormal society recruits me. I'll become part of this organization and protect the world against evil mutants.

I must extremly disagree with you, because he did wish for the happening of extraordinaries even long before he ever met Haruhi. He said it himself in the prologue. He didnt believe in the man in the red coat, but in aliens, timetraveler and esper. I think he lost his believe while he was in Junior Highschool, while Haruhi did continue to believe, maybe even especiality because of him (as John Smith (his trumpcard because he is the man who can shake/change the world ;))).
In the years before the two meet, Haruhi uses her power to make stuff happen, maxes her stats (excelling in sports, in school, and in any club she joins, and she's beautiful as well). Meanwhile, nothing mysterious happens to Kyon. So why does Haruhi pick Kyon? Because he kept talking to her, in a way other boys wouldn't. That's a consistent part of his character from even before meeting Haruhi. Kyon was friends with Sasaki, not boyfriend and girlfriend like others (including Kunikida) thought. He was very kind to Miyoko,
Spoiler! :
treating her as an equal although she was several years younger.
And he likes to make the girls he meets feel comfortable, he befriends them instead of treating them as "date material" in the way Taniguchi would. And he kept on talking to Haruhi when everyone else had given up, even though she occasionally put him down. This empathy is what made him special among his peers... although for Haruhi, it might feel as some strange power because it's the one thing she cannot understand or emulate.
Not everyone is like Taniguchi! I would say that Kyon is more mature than most others in his age. I think Kyon is an introverted guy who has normaly very little interest in other people (he still do not know all of his classmates), but Haruhi has woken his interest with her first speech in Highschool, because she spoke from things he also wished for a long time ago. Because of that they are more equal to each other than to the rest. I think if he see others he see they as persons and not in limited categories. (He see Yuki not only as the almighty alien, but also as the lonely girl she is.) And he want that the persons near him he like are protected, happy, safe and so one. He care for them. (which is something new for him I would say.)
If you ask how Kyon's seeming obsession with Mikuru fits in here... well, Kyon is still a teenager with lots of hormones. He will like to see her in her various costumes... but he hates seeing her getting hurt. When he has to choose between his desires and his conscience, he puts himself second. This also shows in "Vanishment" where he doesn't go the easy way of
Spoiler! :
accepting the human Yuki as girlfriend (who absolutely adores him), but is ready to "stare down Cthulhu" for his friend Nagato later, despite of her actions.
Who would not be possesed with a girl like Mikuru beautiful, cute, nearly helpless, lost? Who would not want to protect her? (And she isnt entierly out of reach, since she was also captured by Haruhi.)

He didnt go the so called easy way, because it wasnt the easy way. He felt a loss, because he could remember (without that, the world would be still changed and I dont think he wouldnt have ever met Yuki because without Haruhi he would never met the others. We know that, because he met the others in the changed world only because he wasnt changed (anymore) He did remember his old life and had no memories of his life in the changed world.) He liked his new life since he met Haruhi, it was interesting, extraordinary. He liked even the exhausting but now happy Haruhi. He wouldnt lose that. He wouldnt lose his (new) friends. I think he was before as lonely as Haruhi was. Yes, he had some friends, but they werent very close. More like a burden to look normal. He would forgot them, if some of them werent in the same class.
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by shichinanatsu »

these neophytes are making my gears spin..

the Kyon theory began from the assumption that kyon has influence over haruhi. as haruhi bears god-like/reality-warping powers, it has been deemed 'weird' how a normal high school student like kyon could ever manage to manipulate said powers indirectly. best case in point would be the events that led to and went after his telling her he preferred the old world better - back in v1.

also of importance to the theory is kyon's position within the Dan.. he firmly believes himself to be normal, and all the other members claim to be anything but. however, in a relative sense it is kyon himself who is the weirdest member of the Dan; how come a normal person gets to be with a potential god/reality-warper, an alien, a time traveler, and an esper? how much of his 'uniqueness' can be attributed to himself? how much can be attributed to haruhi, in that she was the one who dragged kyon into the Dan, albeit he was the one who gave haruhi the idea of founding it in the first place?

.. seriously though, i'd really love to post, but i'd risk derailing the thread. it may not amount to much - i'm still trying to figure it out. anyway, it has something to do with a PROBABLE haruhiXkoizumi and kyonXyuki, as i see it in the light novels.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by quigonkenny »

shichinanatsu wrote:these neophytes are making my gears spin..

the Kyon theory began from the assumption that kyon has influence over haruhi. as haruhi bears god-like/reality-warping powers, it has been deemed 'weird' how a normal high school student like kyon could ever manage to manipulate said powers indirectly. best case in point would be the events that led to and went after his telling her he preferred the old world better - back in v1.

also of importance to the theory is kyon's position within the Dan.. he firmly believes himself to be normal, and all the other members claim to be anything but. however, in a relative sense it is kyon himself who is the weirdest member of the Dan; how come a normal person gets to be with a potential god/reality-warper, an alien, a time traveler, and an esper? how much of his 'uniqueness' can be attributed to himself? how much can be attributed to haruhi, in that she was the one who dragged kyon into the Dan, albeit he was the one who gave haruhi the idea of founding it in the first place?
I've always wondered why the reason for Kyon's importance to Haruhi creates so much discussion, because to me, it's the most obvious "secret" in the series. This is different from what I thought was the basis of the Kyon Theory, the question as to whether he has any powers or not, since unless his hypothetical power inherently affects how he is perceived by Haruhi, it's tangential to the question of his importance to her. But I digress...

Kyon is important to Haruhi for the same reason most of us find certain people more important than others. She loves him. Whether it's because he reminds her of her first crush (who he most likely was), or he opened up to her when no one else would, or because he's the only guy who isn't either a Kunikida or Taniguchi around her (no censoring there), of just because he's got that recessive Harem Boss gene, she's got genuine feelings for our beloved master of narrative sarcasm. This is why she keeps him around even though he's not an esper. time traveler, or alien data construct—er...I mean even though he's not a mysterious transfer student, buxom ball of moé, or the only legal member of the club. I mean, isn't it obvious that that's why she didn't lose interest in him once her three minute attention span was up? She's abusive to him, jealous when confronted with his inordinate amount of interest to the opposite sex (Harem Boss gene?), and he is the only person she even remotely listens to regarding her own actions. Come on, people. Tell me I'm not the only one seeing this...
shichinanatsu wrote:.. seriously though, i'd really love to post, but i'd risk derailing the thread. it may not amount to much - i'm still trying to figure it out. anyway, it has something to do with a PROBABLE haruhiXkoizumi and kyonXyuki, as i see it in the light novels.
Haruhi x Koizumi? "Probable"? Please don't pass whatever it is you're smoking... Ah, this thread meanders enough. Let's not add shipping to the mix, please...
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by shichinanatsu »

ah, looks like i said that wrong..

while shipping wasn't entirely my intention (and for the record, no, i don't smoke anything) it did come to my attention that haruhi and koizumi could be grouped together into a category. the same applies to kyon and yuki..

i did say it may not amount to much, but i guess it wouldn't hurt to add this to the mix.. haruhi and koizumi experience the flow of time in its proper - chronological - order. whole of v1, v3 (sans kyon's trip back 3ya), 594 years' worth of 2 weeks (albeit the 2 can only recall the most recent version), the shooting of the movie and the school festival, and so on and so forth. and if you look at it in a different perspective, their presence and movement in the STC is 'linear'; they do not go back or forward in time, and thus be required to experience events in another way.

kyon and yuki, on the other hand, experience time in a more or less anachronic manner. while they do not necessarily 'disappear' in the present in order to appear in the past or future, the STC is a witness to their looping presences and movements, in that two or more versions of them exist in a particular time frame, and usually with one unaware of the other's presence.

look at this way. in v1, a version of kyon (with mikuru) from v3 was in yuki's apartment, even before she had him come over and brief him. said sleeping version would only awaken in v3, at around evening of the same day when kyon and mikuru went back 3ya. yuki fully experiences around 594 years' worth of the last 2 weeks of summer vacation, whereas the other members of the Dan can only recall the most recent version.

perhaps the weirdest jumble of all their multiple presences (kyon and yuki) can be found in v4, and the subsequent chapters of the other volumes, in chronological order. kyon in haruhiverse undergoes momentary stasis on the 17th of december, to awaken in yukiverse on the 18th. go through the motions, and on the 20th he gets sent back to tanabata 3ya (haruhiverse of course). give haruhi a final message, then rendezvous with yuki to get details and be sent to the morning of the 18th of december (again, haruhiverse) to prevent yuki's creating yukiverse. and after kyon gets stabbed by ryouko, he passes out, to wake up on the 21st. (an end to his 'stasis' in the eyes of haruhi et al)

and lastly, are the events in the prologue of v7. after winter vacation, kyon, yuki and mikuru return to the dawn of the 18th of december to fulfill what the kyon back then failed to accomplish - stop yuki from creating yukiverse.

it's far from coherent in my eyes, so i don't expect others to make sense of it so easily (no sarcasm intended). con- and des-crit are accepted..
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by quigonkenny »

shichinanatsu wrote:perhaps the weirdest jumble of all their multiple presences (kyon and yuki) can be found in v4, and the subsequent chapters of the other volumes, in chronological order. kyon in haruhiverse undergoes momentary stasis on the 17th of december, to awaken in yukiverse on the 18th. go through the motions, and on the 20th he gets sent back to tanabata 3ya (haruhiverse of course). give haruhi a final message, then rendezvous with yuki to get details and be sent to the morning of the 18th of december (again, haruhiverse) to prevent yuki's creating yukiverse. and after kyon gets stabbed by ryouko, he passes out, to wake up on the 21st. (an end to his 'stasis' in the eyes of haruhi et al)
Yare, yare... Don't get me statrted on V4. Kyon's time travel is the easy part of understanding that book... Yuki's implementation of Haruhi's abilities, as it is incomplete, precludes differentiating the Haruhiverse and "Yukiverse". There are never two separate "-verses", at least not in the alpha/beta V9/V10(?) sense.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by Darklor »

I don't think that Yuki has used stolen power from Haruhi, but her own power or more likely the power that she have had through her superior to alternate the reality, because the backchanged Yuki couldnt change the world back, because she hasnt had anymore the connection to her superior. Maybe she learned from Haruhi how to do it, but this I cant really believe, because she could even before this change reality not unlike from Haruhi but also different. Yuki do change the data of the world consciously, while Haruhi do change the reality subconscious.

I think, that maybe this time Kyon was not only a timetraveler, but also a slider. ;) Because I would say he didnt came back to the reality he started from (17th (or more 18th morning) to 18th afternoon) because of his gap in his memories. I think, he couldnt remember this day because this Kyon hasnt lived this day. Or maybe this is what do happen if a timeloop or the events of the past are changed/destroyed to a person from another reality/timeplane (if they is the reason for the change) or if they jump from one possible reality to another. Or maybe behind this gap is a different still untold story hidden (Maybe we should ask Asahina (big) ;)). (Since we all know that all the events of vol. 4 really did happen, so they cant be a false memory. Hm... or Yuki did overwrite the memories of this day with the memorys of Kyons adventures in the changed world, but I think this is unlikely, but not impossible, since we know how she did change the memories of Nakagawa.)

Hmm... I hope I did found the right words for that what I wanted to say so that you can also understand it.
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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