The Kyon Theory

[quigonkenny]

I've always thought that "time loops =/= free will" argument is just a load of hooey. The primary flaw with it is that it mistakes lack of free action for lack of free will. The situation in the book with "Fujiwara" illustrates this perfectly. His free will was not affected at all in that situation. True, no matter what he did, the result was going to be the same (Kyon gets the data), since it was a "predetermined event", but the manner of how it happened would have been affected by his will. If he attempted to abscond with the chip, he would have failed, whether by tripping and hitting his head, or running around the corner into a coincidental pulping by a conveniently-placed data entity, or some other method, but he chose to avoid all that and just be a "sneering b..tard" to Kyon and Mikuru.

Action and will are two completely different things. Let's say I want to fly of my own power. Doesn't matter how many times I jump off the roof of the house flapping my arms, it ain't gonna happen. My "free will" will have not been impinged one bit (although my available courses of action will have been, at least until I get out of the hospital).

[AuraTwilight]

That's a good point, but the whole deal with Older Mikuru seems to suggest otherwise. If you have an omnipresent, or atleast future, view of the timeline, you're gonna know what happens anyway. Someone watching Fujiwara's life is going to know he's going to just concede and give up the chip, not because it was his choice implicitly, but because all of the factors in the world made his mind see that this was his only real option.

[Kaisos Erranon]

If you ask me, Fujiwara's 'choice' is really an illusion. Because, from the perspective of those with the ability to look back in time, he already gave the data chip to Kyon and Mikuru, in that fashion.

I think the entire point is that since time is predetermined, events WILL play out the same way regardless of 'choice' because each choice we make is, in the end, the only choice that we could and would make.

However, as long as there are no time travelers nor technology to look back into the past, the illusion of free will and 'choice' remains. Humans can go about their business not knowing about the future and thus not feeling trapped, without any say in their lives.

THIS is why Fujiwara and his group wish to erase the existence of time travelers, as they feel that ignorance is bliss.

Comparing the two opposing viewpoints (those of Fujiwara and Adult Mikuru) objectively really makes Fujiwara and his group look like the 'good guys'. Interesting, isn't it?

[quigonkenny]

If you ask me, Fujiwara's 'choice' is really an illusion. Because, from the perspective of those with the ability to look back in time, he already gave the data chip to Kyon and Mikuru, in that fashion.

True, but characters in stories, even time travellers, as well as their real world counterparts, live, and make decisions, and exercise their wills, in the present (whatever present that currently may be). Anyone has the ability to "look back in time", at least regarding their own choices. An obvious choice and an "illusion of choice" are two different things. One is a real-world actuality, and the other is a philosophical hypothesis. There are always multiple choices to take. I would think that the premise of the latest volume (alternate universes) would have shown that...

[Kaisos Erranon]

No, what I'm saying, is that no one is actually making any choices. The choice has already been made. Everything is predetermined.

And god that sounded like something from the Matrix...

As for the alternate universes... well, if sliders come from another universe entirely, it's plausible to say that Haruhi created them three years ago.

As for the current split... I'd have to say either Haruhi or someone with similar powers is behind it, as she is the only one capable of making real choices.

[AuraTwilight]

Not to mention that as far as we know, the timeline has never actually split before even when Yuki was mucking things up, and this current development is obviously not a normal aspect of time travel mechanics.

[quigonkenny]

Not to mention that as far as we know, the timeline has never actually split before even when Yuki was mucking things up, and this current development is obviously not a normal aspect of time travel mechanics.

The Many Universes/Timelines Theory (or at least the variation of it that I think the author may be going for) posits that a separate timeline/universe is created any time a significant decision is made that could domino into the future and affect later occurences. Time travel actually has little to do with it inherently, except as a facilitator of more unconventional decisions. As far as we know, the timeline has split every time a significant decision has been made. Just up until now it's been irrelevant, since this will be the first time that "our" Kyon is going to be aware of alternate universes/timelines, and the first time that a separate timeline/universe will interact with "our" own (since we now apparently have a slider).

If Volume 10 ever comes out, that is...

[AuraTwilight]

The Many Universes/Timelines Theory (or at least the variation of it that I think the author may be going for) posits that a separate timeline/universe is created any time a significant decision is made that could domino into the future and affect later occurences. Time travel actually has little to do with it inherently, except as a facilitator of more unconventional decisions. As far as we know, the timeline has split every time a significant decision has been made. Just up until now it's been irrelevant, since this will be the first time that "our" Kyon is going to be aware of alternate universes/timelines, and the first time that a separate timeline/universe will interact with "our" own (since we now apparently have a slider).

Or more likely, this is the first time this has ever happened. Predetermined Time Travel doesn't allow for multiple timelines, and the timeline split in this instance seems into involve a Slider, who would've been from outside the Timeline anyway.

[Kaisos Erranon]

This series kinds of makes me wonder what system the real universe uses... Predetermined or Many Universes.

Of course, it's not like we can ever find out, as time travel is effectively impossible.

[cicero225]

I would interject the somewhat non-sequitur that "partial predestination" (like it being inevitable that someone dies on a certain day, but they can get hit by a car or fall of a cliff, etc.) wouldn't work for the real universe, since there's nothing fundamentally different between a person dying and the car needing to be damaged in a certain way, or particle A to have a certain waveform at a certain time. Either total predestination (all quantum events already determined when viewed from the future) or none. It's the Copernican principle.

Multiple universes seems unlikely in the story because it really seems like Mikuru (big) would have mentioned it at some point, since it doesn't seem like she would need to lie about that.

[quigonkenny]

Multiple universes seems unlikely in the story because it really seems like Mikuru (big) would have mentioned it at some point, since it doesn't seem like she would need to lie about that.

Haruhiverse time travel as known by Mikuru and her ilk has a strict inability to affect the past. That's why they've got so much of an interest in Haruhi. If alternate universes exist in the Haruhi multiverse, however they come about, then there's no reason for Mikuru(big) to have any idea they exist. In fact, I think it likely that if Kyon were to ask her if it were even possible (outside of "divine" intervention, of course), she'd say it isn't.

[cicero225]

Multiple universes seems unlikely in the story because it really seems like Mikuru (big) would have mentioned it at some point, since it doesn't seem like she would need to lie about that.

Haruhiverse time travel as known by Mikuru and her ilk has a strict inability to affect the past. That's why they've got so much of an interest in Haruhi. If alternate universes exist in the Haruhi multiverse, however they come about, then there's no reason for Mikuru(big) to have any idea they exist. In fact, I think it likely that if Kyon were to ask her if it were even possible (outside of "divine" intervention, of course), she'd say it isn't.

Fair enough. It's not as if Yuki and the IDSE seem to know either. But I have a better objection.
If each moment branches off into multiple timelines, then why aren't they being inundated by time travelers? I mean, each time adult Mikuru decides her hairstyle in the morning (in the future), that spawns another version of her to appear in front of Kyon when she later decides to go back in time. That's not to even mention the fact that each quantum event with different possible outcomes, most of which will have no effect on whether or not she chooses to go back, should spawn a different timeline. The problem is that there are more timelines in the future than the present.

[Darklor]

As seen in "Melancholy of Haruhi-chan": Kyon -> Avatar: Koizumis comment: "Wow, he's like some god!"

Ah, I did know it!!! ^^

[AuraTwilight]

Haruhi-chan isn't canon, and it was a dream anyway. It's not really evidence for anything.

[Rectifier]

According to Buddhism our existence is but the dream of "god" (for lack of a better term), and we will end when he awakens. Might this not be an allusion to this idea?



Btw, thread necromancy is so fail, dead topic is dead.