The Kyon Theory

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AuraTwilight
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by AuraTwilight »

I don't think that Yuki has used stolen power from Haruhi, but her own power or more likely the power that she have had through her superior to alternate the reality, because the backchanged Yuki couldnt change the world back, because she hasnt had anymore the connection to her superior. Maybe she learned from Haruhi how to do it, but this I cant really believe, because she could even before this change reality not unlike from Haruhi but also different. Yuki do change the data of the world consciously, while Haruhi do change the reality subconscious.
It's pretty highly implied, if not outright obvious, that Yuki borrowed Haruhi's powers somehow. Yuki and the other Data Thought Entities don't have that kind of power.
I think, that maybe this time Kyon was not only a timetraveler, but also a slider. ;) Because I would say he didnt came back to the reality he started from (17th (or more 18th morning) to 18th afternoon) because of his gap in his memories. I think, he couldnt remember this day because this Kyon hasnt lived this day.
He was in a coma, according to Koizumi. He's not going to remember it either way, nor did Yuki make a new universe. She altered it. Yuki changed the universe, set it back, and made it so that during that time, everyone remembers Kyon being in a coma.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

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AuraTwilight wrote: It's pretty highly implied, if not outright obvious, that Yuki borrowed Haruhi's powers somehow. Yuki and the other Data Thought Entities don't have that kind of power.
Spoiler! :
I gently said to the Nagato from the past,

"Go change the world back to its former state."

"Understood."

That Nagato nodded, and said, in a slightly hesitating voice that only I could understand,

"Unable to sense the existence of the Integrated Data Sentient Entity."

"It's not here."

My Nagato faintly said,

"I am still connected to the time and space I am from, let me do the second adjustment. "

"Understood." Said the Nagato from the past.
I wouldnt say that this obvious. Its only that what Kyon thought Yuki has (maybe) done. We know that Yuki can twist reality through data-manipulation and freeze time for sure. Maybe this is enough with an overflow an emotion to change also time. That wouldnt be a problem for her - synchronise with the past and change the present/future through data-manipulation, (maybe it was enough that Haruhi did go nearly a year to a different school so that her life was so boring that the Avatars could win ;) but however I would say that 3 years of continious data manipulation from Yuki would be enough to change reality, since she has nothing to do for 3 years, but wait (and maybe she couldnt freeze herself in time because in the room were already Kyon and Asahina)) - this wouldnt be a violation of the timetravelers law. The spoiler do mean for me, that she could change the world only with the help of Data Tought Entity... (at least back.)

He was in a coma, according to Koizumi. He's not going to remember it either way, nor did Yuki make a new universe. She altered it. Yuki changed the universe, set it back, and made it so that during that time, everyone remembers Kyon being in a coma.
Yeah, that is what I mean she didnt made an new universe but altered it - for this she wouldnt have had the need for Haruhis power - her own power to alternate would be enough. And yeah they remember him in coma, but they also remember, what he has done this day (the 18th) before he fell down the stairs - Kyon not (he have the memories from the day of the alternate universe).
Spoiler! :
In the prologue Kyon tells Taniguchi what Haruhi has yesterday decided for the 24th. So this yesterday will be the 16th, because for rest of the day of the prologue he said: "After school, nothing special happened." So the day of the prologue will be the 17th because the next day is the 18th which is already in the changed reality.
I didnt mean his three days in coma, but the time between the wake up in the morning and of his downfall from the stairs of the 18th. If he lost the memories of the day, why does he remember the time in the alternate timeline? I do not question his coma - maybe he did need the time to acclimatize himself to the backchange or maybe because he already lived this three days or maybe because of his healed stabwound (maybe Yuki couldnt heal it complete or because of the shock. Who knows - they all say he is only human ;) ) (Or the author wasnt interested to write those three days again. ;))




(Bah, then and than are somehow confusing.)
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by AuraTwilight »

I wouldnt say that this obvious. Its only that what Kyon thought Yuki has (maybe) done. We know that Yuki can twist reality through data-manipulation and freeze time for sure. Maybe this is enough with an overflow an emotion to change also time. That wouldnt be a problem for her - synchronise with the past and change the present/future through data-manipulation, (maybe it was enough that Haruhi did go nearly a year to a different school so that her life was so boring that the Avatars could win ;) but however I would say that 3 years of continious data manipulation from Yuki would be enough to change reality, since she has nothing to do for 3 years, but wait (and maybe she couldnt freeze herself in time because in the room were already Kyon and Asahina)) - this wouldnt be a violation of the timetravelers law. The spoiler do mean for me, that she could change the world only with the help of Data Tought Entity... (at least back.)
You give Yuki's species too much credit. If they could do what you're claiming on their own, they'd have no motive to study Haruhi. That, and your spoiler takes place during the period Yuki ursurped Haruhi's abilities, so it's not relevant one way or the other.
Yeah, that is what I mean she didnt made an new universe but altered it - for this she wouldnt have had the need for Haruhis power - her own power to alternate would be enough.
Again, no one has this power but Haruhi. You're missing the point.
I didnt mean his three days in coma, but the time between the wake up in the morning and of his downfall from the stairs of the 18th. If he lost the memories of the day, why does he remember the time in the alternate timeline? I do not question his coma - maybe he did need the time to acclimatize himself to the backchange or maybe because he already lived this three days or maybe because of his healed stabwound (maybe Yuki couldnt heal it complete or because of the shock. Who knows - they all say he is only human ;) ) (Or the author wasnt interested to write those three days again. ;))
Or more likely, when the universe was restored to normal, that was just how things were set up the easiest.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

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AuraTwilight wrote:You give Yuki's species too much credit. If they could do what you're claiming on their own, they'd have no motive to study Haruhi. That, and your spoiler takes place during the period Yuki ursurped Haruhi's abilities, so it's not relevant one way or the other.
Yeah, that is what I mean she didnt made an new universe but altered it - for this she wouldnt have had the need for Haruhis power - her own power to alternate would be enough.
Again, no one has this power but Haruhi. You're missing the point.
I dont think so. ;)

No, Yuki has also the power to alternate reality - do you not remember the baseballgame? She changed the trajectorys of the baseball, the baseballbat and claimed she could have also changed the weather but didnt because this would be a change for a long time and Kyon wouldnt risk that. Do you not remember Asakura who changed the classroom to trap Kyon? They can already alternate reality, since everything for them is only data and they can manipulate data. They are not here to learn how to do it. They here because they have already all the data this universe could give them. They here because Haruhi can create new data. That is nothing what they can do. They supervise Haruhi to get the new data first hand. They wait for a new data explosions.
Spoiler! :
What is the Integrated Data Sentient Entity?

In the vast sea of data known as the universe, there exist many highly sentient data entities that possess no corporeal bodies.

These entities started out in the form of pure data. As all sorts of data gathered together, they became sentient, and finally they evolved by collecting other data.

As they exist only as data and have no corporeal bodies, they cannot be detected even with the most advanced optical devices.

As old as the universe itself, they expanded along with it, and the relative database became ever wider and larger.

Ever since the formation of this planet, sorry, it should be since the formation of this solar system, nothing in this universe is unknown to them. For them, this planet at the edge of the Milky Way is nothing special, because there are numerous planets in the galaxy with sentient organic lifeforms like this one, so numerous that they cannot be counted.
However, as the bipedal lifeform's evolution on the third planet of this solar system became a success, these lifeforms gradually acquired the mental ability to actively seek knowledge. This organic lifeform living on the planet known as Earth started to become important.


"For a long time, we have always believed it impossible for organic lifeforms, who have limited data collection and transmission ability, to be able to acquire knowledge," Nagato Yuki said in a serious tone.

"The Integrated Data Entity is very interested in all forms of organic lifeforms on Earth. It believes that by observation, it can find the solution to its own evolutionary dead end."


Unlike the data entities, who have existed since the beginning in their completed form, humans started off as incomplete organic lifeforms, rapidly evolving by expanding the data that they possessed and using this data, which is saved and enhanced, to further advance themselves.

It is normal for organic lifeforms all over the universe to become sentient, but only the humans on Earth have evolved continuously to a highly sentient level. The Integrated Data Entity was very intrigued by this, and decided to observe these humans further.


"Three years ago, we discovered a very abnormal data hotspot unlike other humans appearing on the surface of this planet. The information sparks emitted from a certain area in the bow-shaped archipelago instantly covered the whole planet and started to spread towards outer space. And the center of all that is Suzumiya Haruhi."


"We do not know why that happened, nor do we know what effects it would have. Even the data entities are unable to fully process the new data being created."

"More importantly, humans are limited in the amount of data that they can process, yet Suzumiya Haruhi was able to create a flare of data on her own."

"The release of massive amounts of data from Suzumiya Haruhi continues to happen, at completely random intervals.
Furthermore, Suzumiya Haruhi seems unaware of all this herself."

"For three years, I have gone through all sorts of investigations on the individual known as Suzumiya Haruhi from all perspectives, but up to now I was still unable to discover her true identity. Concurrently, other parts of the Integrated Data Entity have determined that she is the key to the evolution of the data entities and have continued their analysis of Suzumiya Haruhi..."

"As they exist only as entities, they are incapable of speech and are thus unable to interact with organic lifeforms. But without speech, contact with humans would be impossible, hence the Integrated Data Entity has created me to act as the communication bridge between them and humans."
And they can also create:
Spoiler! :
"Someone translated that for me,"

"You mean that alien?"

"To be precise, a Living Humanoid Interface created by the aliens in order to interact with humans; I remember that's how she puts it."
Even Kyon know already that Yuki have also godlike power not unlike Haruhi. Without that she wouldnt have had a chance to counter Haruhis attempts to change reality. Like during the shooting of the movie or the creation of the through Haruhis power unchangeable clubroom. Didnt already exist here somewhere a list of Yukis abilities? If not maybe we should do one. ;)

Spoiler! :
Image
This is not my graphic, but I think this graphic did displays Kyons ways through time and universes not bad. You see point 3a? This not an ordinaray crosspoint. She didnt only create the new timeline from there, but she also did change the past from there to get the new timeline. Otherwise Kyon wouldnt have to travel all the time back to the Tanabata of 3 years before. Because of that I think that Yuki begins the timechange there. (Maybe she was after that "possessed" through the changing Yuki.)
Last edited by Darklor on Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by Darklor »

AuraTwilight wrote:It's pretty highly implied, if not outright obvious, that Yuki borrowed Haruhi's powers somehow. Yuki and the other Data Thought Entities don't have that kind of power.
Ok ok, I found it. It looks like you were right after all.
Spoiler! :
"The temporal converter has made full use of Suzumiya Haruhi's ability to create data and altered part of the world's data."

Her familiar calm voice sounded as serene as a music box I had heard when I was a baby and had soothed my heart.

"Therefore, the altered Suzumiya Haruhi does not possess the power to create data. In that dimension, the Integrated Data Sentient Entity is non-existent as well."

I couldn't quite understand, but it sure sounds very serious. Turns out besides myself, everyone, including Haruhi, has been given a new set of memories; a girls school became a co-ed, part of the students in North High were moved over to that other school, while all their memories have been secretly altered; the agent from the 'Organization', Nagato the alien, and Asahina-san the time traveler now all lived different lives; not to mention Asakura has returned while everyone in North High has no memory of Haruhi at all. Now it seems even Nagato's boss has been erased.

What a mess.

"Using the powers stolen from Suzumiya Haruhi, the temporal converter was able to alter data concerning past memories in the range of 365 days."

In other words, everyone's memories from last December - from the time where I came from, that is - to December 17th this year has been altered completely. Yet for memories concerning Tanabata three years ago - which is now - there was nothing the culprit could do about that. It was thanks to Haruhi being able to remember about what happened in Tanabata that I was able to come here. Just who's the dummy out there doing the same idiotic stuff that Haruhi would do?


Looks like I need some time to collect my toughts. ;) But this didnt destroy all of my points complete, but it look like they need a little alteration themself. ;)

Hmm.... maybe so: emotion -> knowledge -> creativity -> changes


Hmm... 365 days, (new) dimension, memories.......... ah, she didnt have to change the memories for 365 days but only for one day - the first day of the 365 days and some background data - the memories for the rest of the 365 days they would get themself (the normal way). Maybe that was the reason that the backchange was more difficult.
Spoiler! :
I turned once again towards Haruhi,

"Why didn't you come to North High?"

"No particular reason, really. I was only interested in North High because of that incident in Tanabata. But by the time I entered high school, John would have graduated already, not to mention I wasn't able to find him before. Besides, Kouyouen has a higher university entrance rate, and my home-room teacher at junior high kept nagging me to enroll there, so I simply followed along just to shut him up. Actually it doesn't really matter which high school I go to, really."

I decided to ask Koizumi as well,

"What about you? Why were you transferred here?"

"You ask me why, well, my answer's pretty much the same as Suzumiya-san's. I simply went to where my academic abilities led me. Besides, now I'm not saying North High's in any way bad, but Kouyouen was just so much better in terms of campus facilities."
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: The Kyon Theory

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No, Yuki has also the power to alternate reality - do you not remember the baseballgame? She changed the trajectorys of the baseball, the baseballbat and claimed she could have also changed the weather but didnt because this would be a change for a long time and Kyon wouldnt risk that. Do you not remember Asakura who changed the classroom to trap Kyon? They can already alternate reality, since everything for them is only data and they can manipulate data. They are not here to learn how to do it. They here because they have already all the data this universe could give them. They here because Haruhi can create new data. That is nothing what they can do. They supervise Haruhi to get the new data first hand. They wait for a new data explosions.
They can alter data within a set field of parameters, but they're not truly omnipotent. The creation of new data is a metaphor for Haruhi's ability to completely remake the universe any way she pleases; the baseball example was Yuki manipulating values within the confines of physical laws. Plus, you overlook that Yuki also made the Data Integrated Thought Entity cease to exist during the Yukiverse, and also apparently depowered Haruhi somehow.
Even Kyon know already that Yuki have also godlike power not unlike Haruhi. Without that she wouldnt have had a chance to counter Haruhis attempts to change reality. Like during the shooting of the movie or the creation of the through Haruhis power unchangeable clubroom. Didnt already exist here somewhere a list of Yukis abilities? If not maybe we should do one.
Destroying an enchanted contact lens isn't the same as being the one that actually enchanted it.

Though it seems you corrected yourself in your doubleposts, so either way. The way I look at it is that Yuki and her kind are the ultimate you can get within the universe's natural scope, as in all of their stuff is something humans can eventually learn to do without superpowers. However, Haruhi has true divinity of some sort, and is able to transcend what the universe allows. As Mikuru seems to prove, time is predestined, not allowing for altering history or paradoxes, only creating timeloops. The power of Haruhi, however, can disregard this rule and just ignore the created paradoxes.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

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AuraTwilight wrote: They can alter data within a set field of parameters, but they're not truly omnipotent. The creation of new data is a metaphor for Haruhi's ability to completely remake the universe any way she pleases; the baseball example was Yuki manipulating values within the confines of physical laws. Plus, you overlook that Yuki also made the Data Integrated Thought Entity cease to exist during the Yukiverse, and also apparently depowered Haruhi somehow.
Maybe not omnipotent but nearly omniscient (they contain the knowledge of nearly all the data that exist in the universe) . And if they learn how to do it, they possibly also could do it - thats the reason why they are there.
Destroying an enchanted contact lens isn't the same as being the one that actually enchanted it.
She didnt destroy the contact lens, but rendered their through Haruhi created function useless through altering Mikurus reality back to a point where they do not work.
Though it seems you corrected yourself in your doubleposts, so either way. The way I look at it is that Yuki and her kind are the ultimate you can get within the universe's natural scope, as in all of their stuff is something humans can eventually learn to do without superpowers. However, Haruhi has true divinity of some sort, and is able to transcend what the universe allows. As Mikuru seems to prove, time is predestined, not allowing for altering history or paradoxes, only creating timeloops. The power of Haruhi, however, can disregard this rule and just ignore the created paradoxes.
^^ found the spoiler but wanted to finish my prior thoughts. ;)

Time wouldnt be predestined if Mikuru wouldnt be in Haruhis time to ensure that her future will come true.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

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Maybe not omnipotent but nearly omniscient (they contain the knowledge of nearly all the data that exist in the universe) . And if they learn how to do it, they possibly also could do it - thats the reason why they are there.
Just because they think they can learn doesn't mean they can. Haruhi is an element which, according to the Entity's data, should be impossible. She's a deity, and you can't learn that.
She didnt destroy the contact lens, but rendered their through Haruhi created function useless through altering Mikurus reality back to a point where they do not work.
She destroyed the enchantment, thus she destroyed the enchanted contact lens. Semantics, but an important one given the nature of the series' metaphysics. Yuki hit the delete button, but she can't rewrite the program.
Time wouldnt be predestined if Mikuru wouldnt be in Haruhis time to ensure that her future will come true.
Time is always predestined in the Haruhi universe, the Smirking Itsuki said so himself. Only Haruhi can actually change history; everyone else is trapped in stable time loops.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

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AuraTwilight wrote: Just because they think they can learn doesn't mean they can. Haruhi is an element which, according to the Entity's data, should be impossible. She's a deity, and you can't learn that.
But we can asume that Yuki know how, since she could aquire Haruhis power and even use it. That means she did learned it. She also stated that there is still a risk that she could try it again.
Time is always predestined in the Haruhi universe, the Smirking Itsuki said so himself. Only Haruhi can actually change history; everyone else is trapped in stable time loops.
Not completly true everyone in their own timeline can change the future. That the reason why the timetravelers do use agents for their change (attempts) like Kyon (Mikuru) or the evil espers (Fujiwara). (But maybe there is a limit how much attempts they have - like they cant cancel themself.) Even for the counterchange did Mikuru need Kyon. But would Kyon know the future he could change it very easily only by himself. That is the reason why he cant go in the future (its forbidden) or timetraveller didnt say anything about the future (and even the past Mikuru do often know nearly nothing about the past (Kyons timeline present/near future. Sometimes she even didnt know really much about the time she is in. Maybe she even do really learn new things at school ;))

And the Yukiverse did create also a broken loop. (hmm maybe thats the reason for Kyons coma - the paradoxon)
Spoiler! :
Yuki creates Yukiverse - Yuki changed it back. So Kyon wouldnt wake up in a changend world, so wouldnt want to go back (and learn how much he do love the Haruhiverse) to get the recreation pistol. So Yuki would change the world...
So here are we again with my problem with the gap between 18th morning and 18th stairfall. -> So Kyon is really a slider... this time? Wouldnt that mean that the Yukiverse is also a real parallel universe and could continue into a far future? Maybe you can find the solution or the gap in my thoughts, like you did it the last time. ;)




(To bad looks like I love some words to much. ;))
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Re: The Kyon Theory

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But we can asume that Yuki know how, since she could aquire Haruhis power and even use it. That means she did learned it. She also stated that there is still a risk that she could try it again.
Learning how to imitate something and learning how to steal something isn't the same thing. For a brief period, Yuki was God and Haruhi WASN'T.
Not completly true everyone in their own timeline can change the future. That the reason why the timetravelers do use agents for their change (attempts) like Kyon (Mikuru) or the evil espers (Fujiwara).
Fujiwara isn't an Esper, and even still, those same time travellers acknowledge that they're in a loop; nor did Kyon and Mikuru change time. They went back and then froze themselves, and Kyon concludes that he and Mikuru were in Yuki's house when he visited her before, meaning Kyon and Mikuru were just continuing a time loop. There is not actual instance of the timeline ever being changed without Haruhi's powers being responsible.
And the Yukiverse did create also a broken loop.
Doesn't count, the Yukiverse was made with Haruhi's stolen powers.
So here are we again with my problem with the gap between 18th morning and 18th stairfall. -> So Kyon is really a slider... this time? Wouldnt that mean that the Yukiverse is also a real parallel universe and could continue into a far future? Maybe you can find the solution or the gap in my thoughts, like you did it the last time.
There is no alternate universe, the universe Kyon lives in was just altered. There's no actual gap, other people have confirmed this.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

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Ah... Heureka? Ah, I think I understand it now, perhaps. The graphic did irritate me. Yuki didnt start a new branch line at point 3a. She 'only' did change the memories for 365 days and the background data for on day. And as she changed it back. She didnt do it right away but three days later, where she changed the background data back and the memories for 3 days. - Hmm, no that cant it be. Since Yuki did the change in the morning of the 18th and the backchange ended with the stairfall in the 18th afternoon, since the backchangers did already arrive with the ambulance. Damn the gap is back. There exists still a different universe three days after the change. So Kyon is still a slider - for three days (he did live in another universe/dimension).
There is no alternate universe, the universe Kyon lives in was just altered. There's no actual gap, other people have confirmed this.
No, there is a gap and an alternate universe. Its irrelevant if they have confirmed it, since Yuki did change or would have changed their memories.
To get the recreation pistol Kyon would have had to go back to the past tanabata after he came out of the coma, because he would still have to change Yuki back - that would be a proper loop. But there is no word that he did. (So [the/an] other earlier Kyon would have to do it, since this Kyon already did it.) - The recreation pistol was still there as he came back to seal his timeline.
AuraTwilight wrote:Fujiwara isn't an Esper, and even still, those same time travellers acknowledge that they're in a loop; nor did Kyon and Mikuru change time. They went back and then froze themselves, and Kyon concludes that he and Mikuru were in Yuki's house when he visited her before, meaning Kyon and Mikuru were just continuing a time loop. There is not actual instance of the timeline ever being changed without Haruhi's powers being responsible.


I didnt say Fujiwara is one, or at least I didnt intend to do so, but he did use the other espers as agents for his attempt to change the time. (His agenda is to create a future without timetraveler (or at least with the timetraveler Asahina).) What Asahina (big) could prevent with the help of Asahina (small) and Kyon.
The timetreaveller do know changes could/can happen , but when they come back to their future and experience that this future is different from the future they did [have known] remember, then they go back to create the future they [did have known [hmm or know ;) hmm -] remember. [hmpf, couldnt decide which sentence would have been better]. Asahina (big) said something like that herself. Because of that the events are predestined, but only for Asahinas future, without her they wouldnt be. - As far as I know are their timetraveldevices integrated in themself. (So that they do not have to go back to the time they started from, but as long as they live the will do everything what is possible that their future will come true/ stays predetermined for them or more her.
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by AuraTwilight »

Ah... Heureka? Ah, I think I understand it now, perhaps. The graphic did irritate me. Yuki didnt start a new branch line at point 3a. She 'only' did change the memories for 365 days and the background data for on day. And as she changed it back. She didnt do it right away but three days later, where she changed the background data back and the memories for 3 days. - Hmm, no that cant it be. Since Yuki did the change in the morning of the 18th and the backchange ended with the stairfall in the 18th afternoon, since the backchangers did already arrive with the ambulance. Damn the gap is back. There exists still a different universe three days after the change. So Kyon is still a slider - for three days (he did live in another universe/dimension).
No, there's only one universe which Yuki altered, that's a fact, because Kyon had to choose which universe to live in, and his choice would make the other cease to exist. This point is driven home by Kyon lamenting the memory of normal Yuki, and that everyone in the Yukiverse deserved to exist, but were denied it.
No, there is a gap and an alternate universe. Its irrelevant if they have confirmed it, since Yuki did change or would have changed their memories.
To get the recreation pistol Kyon would have had to go back to the past tanabata after he came out of the coma, because he would still have to change Yuki back - that would be a proper loop. But there is no word that he did. (So [the/an] other earlier Kyon would have to do it, since this Kyon already did it.) - The recreation pistol was still there as he came back to seal his timeline.
I don't think you really understand this series' metaphysics.
I didnt say Fujiwara is one, or at least I didnt intend to do so, but he did use the other espers as agents for his attempt to change the time. (His agenda is to create a future without timetraveler (or at least with the timetraveler Asahina).) What Asahina (big) could prevent with the help of Asahina (small) and Kyon.
The timetreaveller do know changes could/can happen , but when they come back to their future and experience that this future is different from the future they did [have known] remember, then they go back to create the future they [did have known [hmm or know ;) hmm -] remember. [hmpf, couldnt decide which sentence would have been better]. Asahina (big) said something like that herself. Because of that the events are predestined, but only for Asahinas future, without her they wouldnt be. - As far as I know are their timetraveldevices integrated in themself. (So that they do not have to go back to the time they started from, but as long as they live the will do everything what is possible that their future will come true/ stays predetermined for them or more her.
It's an unbreakable timeloop. Big Mikuru is Little Mikuru's boss, who gives her her missions to develop into Big Mikuru, who has to to do the same to her past self to ensure her own existence, and knowing that she has to to ensure timeline stability. There's nothing anyone, but Haruhi Suzumiya, can do about it. They only have the illusion of free will, but it doesn't really exist. Time is predestined.
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Vice Commander Itsuki
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by cicero225 »

The whole last few pages are a rehashment of years-old arguments.
Points to own theory from page 45 of this thread.->
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewto ... 671#p34671
If you accept this theory (or even anything similar), then there's no contradiction in the time travelers being stuck in a closed loop, and simltaneously trying to change the past. You can change the past by interacting with Haruhi and somehow manipulating her into doing it for you. But you can't do it yourself.
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Kaisos Erranon
Astral Realm

Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

I remember that theory. About Haruhi being free will, and being the only being ever who actually has free will.

I sometimes wonder if this story will end with them destroying the future...?
cicero225
Vice Commander Itsuki
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Re: The Kyon Theory

Post by cicero225 »

Kaisos Erranon wrote:I remember that theory. About Haruhi being free will, and being the only being ever who actually has free will.

I sometimes wonder if this story will end with them destroying the future...?
I've had suspicions along that line, especially with the hints that adult Mikuru isn't necessarily seeking the best future, just the future where she exists. Mikuru's future being destroyed in favor of something else would seem suitably...tragic.
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