Kyons name/nickname

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AuraTwilight
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by AuraTwilight »

Rectifier wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:Well, her powers ARE omnipotent, that's kind've the whole damn point.

As for causing every event EVUR, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that, though it's pretty clear that she either created the current universe (not to say there wasn't a previous universe or we'd REALLY be Haru-trapping), or is atleast responsible for all recent supernatural phenomena.
fixed*

Also, I think that Haru didn't mess with the past too much because they went to the "old" world back at the end of Melancholy. And its also possible that the time travelers put the object there in the past, or maybe it was put there by an older god. I mean, assuming Haru has been the only random person with god powers is kinda stretching the story thin, I'm pretty sure that its been some sort of Buddhist reincarnation thing where god pops in every once in a while as a different person with no memories, but hey, thats just a random theory.
That's possible, but it's all speculation. I don't believe the effects of Haruhi's powers don't have to be recent given their atemporal nature, and even if it was, the creation of the universe could've possibly been "recent".
Yeah, stuff like that is much better rarely used, but used in a big way when it is, so that you're not expecting it when it happens.
Haruhi would be a very good exception to that rule, though, since her responsibility for like, everything is more of a MacGuffin than a Deus Ex Machina.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

quigonkenny wrote: LOL. I was about to change to a Harumi-in-despair avatar a while back for the various fora that I tro--frequent, when you popped up with the Sensei-in-despair avatar. I was glad to see that one retired, especially given the opportunity that Episode 6 gave me... ^_^

Of course, your avatar is awesome as well. From the PS2 game, right?
Yep. Damn, I wanna see that thing translated...
AuraTwilight wrote:Well, her powers ARE omnipotent, that's kind've the whole damn point.
No, they actually aren't. While her powers might be able to warp reality to her will, they're entirely subconscious. She has no real control, though were she to gain full control of them she WOULD be able to do anything.

She's not exactly an all-seeing, all-knowing God. She has that potential, but not yet.

So no, she's not able to retroactively change the past with laser-precise precision.
AuraTwilight wrote:Haruhi would be a very good exception to that rule, though, since her responsibility for like, everything is more of a MacGuffin than a Deus Ex Machina.
I disagree. As I said above, she's not that powerful when not at her full potential, and I think that saying "Haruhi did it" is too easy an explanation for most of the phenomena. If that's true, then nobody has any free will at all, and everything is simply Haruhi's will manifested. Ooops, Haru-Trap, and bad storytelling.
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Rectifier
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by Rectifier »

fiendmaw wrote:I think I said that in one of my posts,but can't actually remember which.
Great minds think alike?

Remember I'm a newbie to the forums so I haven't read all the posts (and I never intend to :lol: ).

*edit yay promotion
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AuraTwilight
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

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No, they actually aren't. While her powers might be able to warp reality to her will, they're entirely subconscious. She has no real control, though were she to gain full control of them she WOULD be able to do anything.

She's not exactly an all-seeing, all-knowing God. She has that potential, but not yet.

So no, she's not able to retroactively change the past with laser-precise precision.
Being omniscient is different from omnipotent, they're two entirely different abilities. Though it's subconscious, Haruhi IS omnipotent. She just doesn't know that she is. Furthermore, if she became aware of her power and wished to be omniscient, she would be immediately.

On top of which, I would dare say that since her subconscious is aware of, and carrying out, her will, that she may be able to retroactively change the past with laser precision. Jungian Psychology, bizzatch.
I disagree. As I said above, she's not that powerful when not at her full potential, and I think that saying "Haruhi did it" is too easy an explanation for most of the phenomena. If that's true, then nobody has any free will at all, and everything is simply Haruhi's will manifested. Ooops, Haru-Trap, and bad storytelling.
"We are all here because Haruhi wished it." Oops, narrative.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

AuraTwilight wrote:
Being omniscient is different from omnipotent, they're two entirely different abilities. Though it's subconscious, Haruhi IS omnipotent. She just doesn't know that she is. Furthermore, if she became aware of her power and wished to be omniscient, she would be immediately.
Exactly, but she's NOT all-powerful. She would be if she was aware of her powers, but she's not omnipotent YET.
AuraTwilight wrote: On top of which, I would dare say that since her subconscious is aware of, and carrying out, her will, that she may be able to retroactively change the past with laser precision. Jungian Psychology, bizzatch.
Who says her subconsious can do this? It responds to her desires and her will. I don't think she suddenly desired to retroactively plant false evidence five centuries ago. That's a bit far-fetched...

Besides, saying that the object is real only proves is that Haruhi didn't create a new universe after all, just changed things a bit in the current one. Maybe.
AuraTwilight wrote: "We are all here because Haruhi wished it." Oops, narrative.
Koizumi has said before that he doesn't exactly support that view.
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AuraTwilight
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by AuraTwilight »

Exactly, but she's NOT all-powerful. She would be if she was aware of her powers, but she's not omnipotent YET.
She's omnipotent, she just doesn't use it. There's a difference.
Who says her subconsious can do this? It responds to her desires and her will. I don't think she suddenly desired to retroactively plant false evidence five centuries ago. That's a bit far-fetched...
That attitude didn't work for Kyon.
Besides, saying that the object is real only proves is that Haruhi didn't create a new universe after all, just changed things a bit in the current one. Maybe.
There doesn't seem to be a difference from the Haruhiverse's philosophical point of view.
Koizumi has said before that he doesn't exactly support that view.
He didn't support the view that she was God, but he fully acknowledges that she's responsible for the supernatural events.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

AuraTwilight wrote:
She's omnipotent, she just doesn't use it. There's a difference.
Not really. If she doesn't ever use said omnipotent powers than it's pretty much the same as her not having them.
AuraTwilight wrote: That attitude didn't work for Kyon.
I fail to see what you're getting at here.
AuraTwilight wrote: He didn't support the view that she was God, but he fully acknowledges that she's responsible for the supernatural events.
That doesn't mean he's right, either. Nagato and the other aliens firmly believe that they existed beforehand, as do the time travelers. Who's to say that only one of them, or any of them, is right?



Again, she is powerful enough to curve time back on itself, but that was to her own direct benefit. I still don't see why sending an object back in time to create false evidence about the nature of the universe directly benefits her.

In any case, I think the more important thing is what the object does, not where it came from.
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fiendmaw
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by fiendmaw »

I'm afraid the Tsuruya item was long forgotten,and it's just a mystery,nothing more.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

fiendmaw wrote:I'm afraid the Tsuruya item was long forgotten,and it's just a mystery,nothing more.
I doubt this.

Especially since Vol.10 WILL NOT BE THE LAST VOLUME.

*ahem*

Why bother pointing it out at all if it's not going to be used in future?

Also, people in general, please stop presenting your opinions as fact.
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fiendmaw
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by fiendmaw »

Nothing we discuss here can be brought as facts...it was meant as an opinion. :P
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

fiendmaw wrote:Nothing we discuss here can be brought as facts...it was meant as an opinion. :P
Ah, I see.

Thank you.
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AuraTwilight
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by AuraTwilight »

Not really. If she doesn't ever use said omnipotent powers than it's pretty much the same as her not having them.
Functionally, yes. In all the ways that really matter for the story, no. If Haruhi is not treated as omnipotent, there's no point for any of the characters to do anything that they do. She IS a MacGuffin; whether or not she's literally responsible for everyone's existence, she is responsible for all of their motives and long-term decisions in the War For Haruhi.
That doesn't mean he's right, either. Nagato and the other aliens firmly believe that they existed beforehand, as do the time travelers. Who's to say that only one of them, or any of them, is right?
Exactly. And I choose to believe that Haruhi created the universe in it's current form. Why are you arguing against my opinion?
Again, she is powerful enough to curve time back on itself, but that was to her own direct benefit. I still don't see why sending an object back in time to create false evidence about the nature of the universe directly benefits her.
It was entertaining, wasn't it?
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shichinanatsu
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by shichinanatsu »

hmm, now that i think of it, can the IDSE really 'prove' that it existed before haruhi did? (IDSE can be replaced with time-travelers) i mean, yuki said they exist beyond space and time, so that would effectively mean that they have no concept of past and future - they 'live' in an eternal present, they only have ideas of what those two concepts mean because they have sent interfaces into a STC dimension.

since haruhi might have 'created' the IDSE, she would have given them a false past, if only for them to be interested in her as an aberration; if she didn't, the IDSE would most likely see her as their creator, and thus see her as something to God (NOT judeo-christian), which is somehow what the 'Agency' thinks. i got this idea from 'the matrix', that humans are actually plugged to a supercomputer-like thingy that simulates reality in the human brain.

the same goes with the time travelers, albeit it's a bit more subtle.. it is possible that the future is an alternate future from the haruhi-verse. recall koizumi's ramblings about how kyon repaired the STC following the events of v4. yuki-verse kyon (also haruhi-verse kyon) traveled back to tanabata 3 y.a., made a 'predetermined' event happen - part 1 of STC restoration, went back to haruhi-verse prior to creation of yuki-verse, and made yuki seal the yuki-verse away, let the haruhi-verse proceed - part 2 of STC restoration. kyon was albeit confused as to what he really did, so koizumi illustrated his proceedings with a bernoulli's lemniscate. unilaterally, it would seem that there should only be one timeline, that yuki-verse is an alternate dimension - if the lemniscate is plotted in an x-y plane. but looking at it bilaterally, haruhi-verse and yuki-verse collude (not sure about the word, i'm in a rush so..); they're just alternate plots in the STC that happen in the same time, but do not coincide - this is apparent in an x-y-z space.

going back to the time travelers. haruhi might have created them, but she did before she met kyon as kyon, not as john smith. so it would most likely follow that she created some sort of alternate time line, one that'd allow for the existence of time travelers. the events in this time line would then follow the events of SHnY-verse, if for one BIG factor, and that would be kyon. put in an analogy, the current time line of SHnY would be the haruhi-verse of v4, and the time line from where mikuru came from would be the yuki-verse. now i'm really not sure about how the TPDD works, but it seems to me that it doesn't really fit with novikov's self-consistency principle; that time-travelers cannot affect an event if that event led to them being able to affect said event. they couldn't go back to before middle school haruhi's tanabata in the SHnY-verse because that is where the time lines diverge - probably, they can only do so much as send mikuru to when haruhi was about to meet kyon because any activities before that would affect their time line adversely, so much that they'd cease to exist.

so yeah, i think the time travelers see haruhi as, if you pardon the cliche, the existence that spawned a thousand alternate time lines. according to them, she isn't God - accdg to Agency, she also isn't an aberration and possibility for evolution - accdg to IDSE, she's just a 'warp', if you will, in the STC. simply put, the 3 groups have totally different views on how haruhi is, though this is something that's pretty much obvious..

sorry for the long post guys, i couldn't express my ideas so concisely this time..
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Rectifier
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by Rectifier »

shichinanatsu wrote:i got this idea from 'the matrix', that humans are actually plugged to a supercomputer-like thingy that simulates reality in the human brain.
"The Matrix" is a ripoff of the Hindu belief that the entire universe is merely the dream of a god in the form of computers instead of a sleeping existence. Seeing that such an idea exists in a culture so close to Japan, this entire novel could be the retelling of an ancient Veda, however, I know absolutely nothing about the Vedas except the premises behind them.


If we use this "sleeping giant" theory, it could be that all the main characters we see are avatars of the gods, and that all the other characters are either demi-gods or just random people.

Oh one other thing, most of the vedas involve avatars of the gods putting balance back into the natural order; aka, all the other gods are trying to put Haruhi into balance with nature.

If we take this avatar idea into account, we can assume that "Kyon" is the name of _________'s avatar on Earth, which would explain why the other avatars (Haruhi, Koizumi, Yuki, Mikuru, Tsuruya, etc.) and random people don't refer to Kyon by his real name.

But this is all speculation.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Kyons name/nickname

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

AuraTwilight wrote: Functionally, yes. In all the ways that really matter for the story, no. If Haruhi is not treated as omnipotent, there's no point for any of the characters to do anything that they do. She IS a MacGuffin; whether or not she's literally responsible for everyone's existence, she is responsible for all of their motives and long-term decisions in the War For Haruhi.
A MacGuffin is basically a red herring, a sort of plot device that in the end turns out to be useless, without any real special powers.

I really don't think that applies to Haruhi. I see why you WOULD use that to describe her, but she is extremely powerful, and, especially in the earlier stories, it's her powers that drives the whole plot.
AuraTwilight wrote: Exactly. And I choose to believe that Haruhi created the universe in it's current form. Why are you arguing against my opinion?
Because it's impossible to have "opinions" in regards to the nature of the universe in a story? The word you're looking for is "belief". And I believe that what you believe is wrong.

However, you're right. It's kind of pointless to continue this when neither of us is going to convince the other.
AuraTwilight wrote: It was entertaining, wasn't it?
Ah, I see what you mean.
shichinanatsu wrote: since haruhi might have 'created' the IDSE, she would have given them a false past, if only for them to be interested in her as an aberration; if she didn't, the IDSE would most likely see her as their creator, and thus see her as something to God (NOT judeo-christian), which is somehow what the 'Agency' thinks. i got this idea from 'the matrix', that humans are actually plugged to a supercomputer-like thingy that simulates reality in the human brain.
Haru-trap. Again, assuming Haruhi has done this creates a giant mindscrew of epic proportions and overcomplicates everything, making us question whether anything we see is real or not.

I don't think this story is supposed to work like that, but that's just me.
shichinanatsu wrote: the same goes with the time travelers, albeit it's a bit more subtle.. it is possible that the future is an alternate future from the haruhi-verse. recall koizumi's ramblings about how kyon repaired the STC following the events of v4. yuki-verse kyon (also haruhi-verse kyon) traveled back to tanabata 3 y.a., made a 'predetermined' event happen - part 1 of STC restoration, went back to haruhi-verse prior to creation of yuki-verse, and made yuki seal the yuki-verse away, let the haruhi-verse proceed - part 2 of STC restoration. kyon was albeit confused as to what he really did, so koizumi illustrated his proceedings with a bernoulli's lemniscate. unilaterally, it would seem that there should only be one timeline, that yuki-verse is an alternate dimension - if the lemniscate is plotted in an x-y plane. but looking at it bilaterally, haruhi-verse and yuki-verse collude (not sure about the word, i'm in a rush so..); they're just alternate plots in the STC that happen in the same time, but do not coincide - this is apparent in an x-y-z space.
Think of the Yukiverse like the sealed timeline in Endless Eight. It has no past or future, only the present of the days within its timeline. As far as I know, the Yukiverse no longer exists, and only exists within the memories of Kyon and Yuki.
shichinanatsu wrote:now i'm really not sure about how the TPDD works, but it seems to me that it doesn't really fit with novikov's self-consistency principle; that time-travelers cannot affect an event if that event led to them being able to affect said event. they couldn't go back to before middle school haruhi's tanabata in the SHnY-verse because that is where the time lines diverge - probably, they can only do so much as send mikuru to when haruhi was about to meet kyon because any activities before that would affect their time line adversely, so much that they'd cease to exist.
This is a common misconception: Haruhi recreated/changed/whatever the universe a few months BEFORE Tanabata. They are unable to send anyone beyond that "3 years ago" event, due to the timeline not existing/being blocked/whatever.

Due to the logical constraints of time travel, as well as the Novikov principle, the time travelers are unable to affect or change ANYTHING. Regardless of what they do, events will proceed exactly as in their past, as seen in Vol.7. They can only "fulfill" their future by their actions, like Adult Mikuru does.

Time travelers have no free will.
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