AuraTwilight wrote:
Functionally, yes. In all the ways that really matter for the story, no. If Haruhi is not treated as omnipotent, there's no point for any of the characters to do anything that they do. She IS a MacGuffin; whether or not she's literally responsible for everyone's existence, she is responsible for all of their motives and long-term decisions in the War For Haruhi.
A
MacGuffin is basically a red herring, a sort of plot device that in the end turns out to be useless, without any real special powers.
I really don't think that applies to Haruhi. I see why you WOULD use that to describe her, but she is extremely powerful, and, especially in the earlier stories, it's her powers that drives the whole plot.
AuraTwilight wrote:
Exactly. And I choose to believe that Haruhi created the universe in it's current form. Why are you arguing against my opinion?
Because it's impossible to have "opinions" in regards to the nature of the universe in a story? The word you're looking for is "belief". And I believe that what you believe is wrong.
However, you're right. It's kind of pointless to continue this when neither of us is going to convince the other.
AuraTwilight wrote:
It was entertaining, wasn't it?
Ah, I see what you mean.
shichinanatsu wrote:
since haruhi might have 'created' the IDSE, she would have given them a false past, if only for them to be interested in her as an aberration; if she didn't, the IDSE would most likely see her as their creator, and thus see her as something to God (NOT judeo-christian), which is somehow what the 'Agency' thinks. i got this idea from 'the matrix', that humans are actually plugged to a supercomputer-like thingy that simulates reality in the human brain.
Haru-trap. Again, assuming Haruhi has done this creates a giant mindscrew of epic proportions and overcomplicates everything, making us question whether anything we see is real or not.
I don't think this story is supposed to work like that, but that's just me.
shichinanatsu wrote:
the same goes with the time travelers, albeit it's a bit more subtle.. it is possible that the future is an alternate future from the haruhi-verse. recall koizumi's ramblings about how kyon repaired the STC following the events of v4. yuki-verse kyon (also haruhi-verse kyon) traveled back to tanabata 3 y.a., made a 'predetermined' event happen - part 1 of STC restoration, went back to haruhi-verse prior to creation of yuki-verse, and made yuki seal the yuki-verse away, let the haruhi-verse proceed - part 2 of STC restoration. kyon was albeit confused as to what he really did, so koizumi illustrated his proceedings with a bernoulli's lemniscate. unilaterally, it would seem that there should only be one timeline, that yuki-verse is an alternate dimension - if the lemniscate is plotted in an x-y plane. but looking at it bilaterally, haruhi-verse and yuki-verse collude (not sure about the word, i'm in a rush so..); they're just alternate plots in the STC that happen in the same time, but do not coincide - this is apparent in an x-y-z space.
Think of the Yukiverse like the sealed timeline in Endless Eight. It has no past or future, only the present of the days within its timeline. As far as I know, the Yukiverse no longer exists, and only exists within the memories of Kyon and Yuki.
shichinanatsu wrote:now i'm really not sure about how the TPDD works, but it seems to me that it doesn't really fit with novikov's self-consistency principle; that time-travelers cannot affect an event if that event led to them being able to affect said event. they couldn't go back to before middle school haruhi's tanabata in the SHnY-verse because that is where the time lines diverge - probably, they can only do so much as send mikuru to when haruhi was about to meet kyon because any activities before that would affect their time line adversely, so much that they'd cease to exist.
This is a common misconception: Haruhi recreated/changed/whatever the universe a few months BEFORE Tanabata. They are unable to send anyone beyond that "3 years ago" event, due to the timeline not existing/being blocked/whatever.
Due to the logical constraints of time travel, as well as the Novikov principle, the time travelers are unable to affect or change ANYTHING. Regardless of what they do, events will proceed exactly as in their past, as seen in Vol.7. They can only "fulfill" their future by their actions, like Adult Mikuru does.
Time travelers have no free will.