[WIP] Chapter 7

[Jumpyshoes]

LOL, hey jumpy maybe I should send KnS through google, then you can edit.

Actually, translation programs are alright for individual words, they usually give you something decent, at least for a reference.

Actually I use it, I skim the raw, pick out the words I like to have reference or I can't instantly recall the English word, number and space the words and send through, then gives me a bunch of english words with numbers to reference. So when I'm working through I don't have to spend as much time thinking about which word to use.

Anyways good effort

Hmm . . . . Can you make it a .doc document or .txt? Then rapidshare/megaupload/etc. it. Hmm . . . . Now that finals are over I'll have more free time. So I can probably edit.

[erehwon]

make what a txt or doc?

[Jumpyshoes]

The text. If you can't update the wiki, just put the text onto a document and send it over. Then I can edit it.

Oh wait . . . Damn. I'm retarded . . . . Ignore all my previous comments. And please don't put it through google . . . .

[HolyCow]

If you run into a word or two that you don't understand/can't recall, a TL program is a good choice to search. However, if you're having problems with an entire line, it's better to just ask someone on the forums

Individual words/phrases will often produce fairly accurate results, but stick too much text in and you'll end up with a huge mess >.<

[erehwon]

google doesn't do clauses very well or not at all, and given that japanese or most asian languange are written without spacing between words... google will have even bigger problems figuring things out... it's some times funny to see what kind of things pops out

[HolyCow]

No kidding. 钻牛角尖 translated to 'Bore Bull Horn Tip' FTW

[erehwon]

No kidding. 钻牛角尖 translated to 'Bore Bull Horn Tip' FTW

those 4 character ones are the funniest. Asking a bit too much of google those are the ones that if you want to be fancy you can put in the translator notes what it really means, where it originated, which txt it was first found... etc

[Darknemo2000]

Persoanally, I dont think that any translation program can replace human translator, besides even the best translation programs are not that reliable.For the further notice - am against using Translation Programs while doing a translation for others.

What I argue about taht there ARE translation prograns that are decent enough for doing an understandable translation for oneself, and I also find it to bit unfair that you use Babblefish as an example. While Babelfish is an online translator it doesnt mean that it is any good.

Here I would like to comapre ATLAS, Babelfish and the latest translation from volume 2 first chapter.

The original text runs:

ルイズは自分のベッドの上で、夢を見ていた。トリステイン魔法学院から、馬で三日ほどの距離にある、生まれ故郷のラ・ヴァリエールの領地にある屋敷が舞台だった。
　夢の中の幼いルイズは屋敷の中庭を逃げ回っていた。迷宮のような植え込みの陰に隠れ、追っ手をやり過ごす。二つの月の片一方、赤の月が満ちる夜……。
「ルイズ、ルイズ、どこに行ったの？　ルイズ！　まだお説教は終わっていませんよ！」
　そう言って騒ぐのは、母であった。夢の中でルイズは、デキのいい姉たちと魔法の成績を比べられ、物覚えが悪いと叱られていたのであった。
　隠れた植え込みの下から、誰かの靴が見えた。

The babelfish translates this as:

ルイズ on your own bed, looked at dream. From the tris theine magical institute, with the horse there is a distance about of three days, the residence which is the territory of ラ ヴァリエール of the birthplace was the stage. The courtyard of the residence it escaped and turned ルイズ where the inside of dream is young. It hides in the shade of the shrubbery, like the labyrinth passes to do the pursuer. The piece of two months the night when on the one hand, month of red is full....... "ルイズ and Louis ズ, it went somewhere? ルイズ! It has not ended preaching yet! "So saying, those where it makes a noise were the mother. ルイズ can compare the record of the older sisters and the magic whose デキ is good in dream, it was scolded that memory is bad. From under the shrubbery which hides, someone's shoes were visible.

While Atlas 13 translates it (while using memory translation and user dictionary) as:

Louise had a dream in her bed. It was the residence of Vallière family, that was in a three days ride by a horse from Tristains Magic Academy.
In the dream, there was a young Louise, running fast inside the garden of the mansion. She went inside the plant labirinth, and hid herself in the shadow, waiting for pursue to pass over. From the two moons the red one was shining bright that night...
[Louise, Louise, where did you go? Louise! The lesson is not over yet!]
It was mother that made noise while saying so. In the dream, Louise was always compared to elder sisters that had good results in magic, and she was scolded for having a bad memory.
Someone's shoes were seen from the bushes where she was hiding.

And finally the original translation:

Louise, lying on her bed, started dreaming. She dreamt that she was back in her homeland where she was born, which was a three day ride away from the Tristain academy.

The young Louise in her dream was running about near the house, eventually hiding in the vegetation which was as complex as a maze to hide from her pursuers.

“Louise, where are you? Come out now!” shouted Louise’s mother. In her dream, Louise was being reprimanded due to her poor results in magical studies. She was constantly being compared with her sisters, who had much better results than her.

Louise saw a pair of shoes below the bushes.

As we can clearly see the human translation is still way better than other two, yet ATLAS translation is noticably better than Babelfish.

My argument is NOT about if you can or cannot use translation programs for translation (I personally think that without japanese language knowledge you shouldnt try, even if you were to have the best Trans. prog. out of them all), what I dont like is that Translation programs are thought to be Babelfish-like, and this is in my opinion is not fair. Don't look down on translation programs just because you faced the crappy online translators, there are are apretty good translation programs that shouldnt be paired with babelfish-likes.

Yet again, for the translations that other poeple should read - I would not recommend using translation program, unless you have a enough knowledge of japanese and Transl. prog. is more like an useful addition here.

P.S. Sorry for my long rant here.

[onizuka-gto]

Just liek to clarify, it is marked as "Preview" and it will be only up for a "limited" time, or unti l the registered translator replace it with their own copy.

Please do not have ANY expectation of it.


Just to reassure people, Claies has told me s/he is at 60% and will be done soon.

Oh and s/he is rushing it now, because claies has just graduated, so please wish him/her a very hearty congratulation, and for answering your concerns, despite the urge to run about and party after freedom from education.

[the_naming_game]

Too out of it to be particularly enthusiastic, but definitely a pat on the back for the recent efforts of Claies and Cristof... and I'm almost certain there is a third, but that would require clicking. Ah, typing is so much easier, the hands don't leave the home position.

Oh, was I rambling?

Darknemo2000:
It's certainly clear that the more advanced translation programs have earned their place. Though in terms of getting to a finished translation, I would tend to see the translation program as a parallel reference translation, not a step in a pipeline.

In any case, this Atlas program seems pretty reasonable for the parts that it did translate, but I noticed that it inexplicably missed the part in red:

ルイズは自分のベッドの上で、夢を見ていた。トリステイン魔法学院から、馬で三日ほどの距離にある、生まれ故郷のラ・ヴァリエールの領地にある屋敷が舞台だった。

(literal translation)

Louise was in her bed, dreaming. From Tristain Magic Academy, a distance of (time != distance for non-physicists, but I'm not rewording, because it would break the sentence structure.) three days by horse, in the native dominion of La Valliere, was a mansion that was the stage. (for the dream.)

I would be interested in feeding that program a few chunks of Japanese that have given me trouble over the months... Sometime, when I have time to get them together, at least.

[Darknemo2000]

It didnt really missed yet chose the different (not literal) translation of this particualr part. There is a difference between using standart Atlas, would most likely do word to word translation, and the Atlas that has the memory translation running (the trick of memory translation is that it remembers translated sentances in the past and if the sentence resembles it it chooses to use that memory), it makes Atlas more like human translator, yet it also might skip some literal meaning from time to time this way as well.

As we can see the translator of this chapter also "missed" the part about two moons and the longer dialog about where Louise is. Atlas in a sense imitates human translator yet it also tends to loose the literal translation while doing so.

Its an interesting program that can be become better and better with additional feeding. Though for that you still need ZnT term/name dictionary to be installed and have some experience in the memory part.

But again - human translator is ALWAYS better... Its just that some programs are better at imitating human translators than others, and its kind of sad then translat. prog. are all imagined to be like Babel Fish, which is a verry terrible translator (I actually think that it did well with that particular ZnT japanese text I gave, as usually it is much more inaccurate and confusing than this).

[HolyCow]

DarkNemo2000, you have successfully convinced me that TL programs can actually be good :3

Prior to your post, I had always imagined TL programs to be like BabelFish. Thanks a lot for opening my eyes on that one

I had previously thought of them to be bad, because frankly the TL given for the preview was horrible

Thanks again DarkNemo2000

[TheDefend]

well... sorry if it was horrible.... cuz i'm 2 lazy to edit it if there is someone who already work on it

[onizuka-gto]

now now. At leased i appriciated that you took the time to try this out.

Nothing is really perfect, and no matter how bad a translation is, it will eventually be smoothed out with a few editing.

But one of the thing machine translations cannot do, is change a word to fit the context of the script.

You will encounter this problem in stark contrast if you have ever edited an anime script without even seeing the anime episode or know the story of it. (trust me. it's very difficult)

but im sure this will be improved over time.

in all, thanks for contributing TheDefend, at leased i know there are still some people who are interested in ZNT.

[TheDefend]

hey onizuka hav you read the scrappy script for Vol 2 Chapter 2(already sent to thelastguardian)? cuz no one working on it, can i take the challenge? well for the next one, i'm not gonna give the same scrappy.... i'm starting to edit it... even there is some part that i can't edit..