Series Overview Change

[onizuka-gto]

Sorry for the delay everyone, Baka-Tsuki time is now competing with EVE Online a.k.a SPaceKrack.


This matter was brought to me attention by Cst2k regarding edit conflict, asking for opinion.

You can see the changes here:

http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... ldid=40474

THe summary of the conflict is whether to add more then one ISBN code for wach book.

I profess that I have a very limited knowledge of this issue, but i've had asked to give an opinion.

While I understand that having more ISBN codes will help readers be able to search for more books, i'm not sure it will make a difference.

If we add more then one, how many more are we going to add? is there a reason why there is more then one ISBN? is this a region issue?

Since we wish to give credit to the Author of the work, i would prefer the ISBN be shown only for the Japanese version and for the latest published edition.

Hence I would prefer only one ISBN to be shown on the overview.

That is my opinion.

What is yours?

[Darklor]

I would say it is the same number only one is in ISBN-10 and the other in ISBN-13 standard - but I cant say which number would be better. But new books do get since 2007 ISBN-13 numbers.

[Zyzzyva165]

Not much opinion, but

If we add more then one, how many more are we going to add?
Since we wish to give credit to the Author of the work, i would prefer the ISBN be shown only for the Japanese version and for the latest published edition.
Hence I would prefer only one ISBN to be shown on the overview.

sounds good to me.

Agreed.

[Const2k]

As a usual, oni disguises my nick so that only selected few would understand.. You know, wikicommunist system has you, not vice versa )

Well, some research on the issue never hurts. Here's Wikipedia article on ISBN, and here's How to Find a Book Guide from Wikibooks. Let me quote most relevant parts:

An ISBN is assigned to each edition and variation (except reprintings) of a book. The ISBN is 13 digits long if assigned after January 1, 2007, and 10 digits long if assigned before 2007.

In other words, length of code has nothing to do with book's country of origin. In our case, both numbers have "4" as country code, and that means Japan.
Reading further (second article this time), we can find

Normally, title and name of the author of a book is enough to locate more information about it. You can then use online bookstores or online library catalogs to identify publisher, publication date, edition and ISBN; these items are sometimes required by libraries or bookstores to order the book.

Occasionally, the author's name is misspelled, especially with foreign authors. In this case try searching for the title alone, until you find the proper spelling of the name.

If you only have the book's ISBN, you should be aware of the fact that different editions as well as hardcover and soft-cover versions of a book have different ISBNs. It is possible that the version of the book with your ISBN is already out of print, while another version is still available.

(bolded by author, reddened by me)

To my knowledge, having ISBN code(s) on Series Overview sections should help readers find original books in bookstores. If that's the case, this section must be as helpful as possible, yet we can't advertise booksellers, that's why we use ISBNs instead of links, and that's why we should use all ISBNs we can find.

So, for me question stands as "How much would you want to help others find a given book?"
And I answer "As much as possible". Obviously, not being responsible for ZnT, I can only advise to the ones responsible for it to make section in question better (aka more useful), but I'll keep both ISBNs on pages I'm responsible for.

P.S. Oh, I forgot to tell you that official page of ZnT novels has both 10- and 13-number ISBNs listed, so leaving only ISBN-10's or ISBN-13's will lead to question "where did they took that number from, since official page doesn't have it?"
Having both numbers will inevitably make Series Overview bigger, but that's the cost of usefulness..

[Vaelis]

I think that one ISBN is more than enough, we aren't the wikipedia for Zero no Tsukaima.
And I'm sure that if people really want to find the books, they don't need the ISBN.

For Suzumiya Haruhi's overview the ISBN-10 was used that's why I decided to only keep this one.

[Const2k]

I think that one ISBN is more than enough, we aren't the wikipedia for Zero no Tsukaima.
And I'm sure that if people really want to find the books, they don't need the ISBN.

And I think that two ISBNs is bare minimum, for (as we're promoting Japanese light novels in general) we should promote actual books to an extent comparable with translations. Actually, that's not the matter of opinion (who cares about others' opinions on the net, unless they match your own?), it's a matter of usefulness. And for those who are even slightly interested in finding the place they can order an original novel at, we should provide as much help as possible. What's the point of having any and all ISBNs on B-T projects otherwise?

For Suzumiya Haruhi's overview the ISBN-10 was used that's why I decided to only keep this one.

And for whose (or what) sake was this decision made? I strongly doubt it was made for readers' sake, as every decision on any project made for public should be made. It obviously lowers amount of useful info on the wiki, which I'm strongly opposed of.

[Vaelis]

What's the point of having any and all ISBNs on B-T projects otherwise?

As I said, people who want the books can find them easily without this.
For me the ISBNs are totally useless.

It obviously lowers amount of useful info on the wiki, which I'm strongly opposed of.

It lowers the amount of useless info on the wiki.

[Const2k]

As I said, people who want the books can find them easily without this.
For me the ISBNs are totally useless.

It lowers the amount of useless info on the wiki.

Got your idea: "there should be no ISBNs on the wiki, since they're of no use to me". Fortunately, there are superiors who seem to care about readers and authors. We'll see how this thing turns out, since this matter involves other projects as well, not just ZnT.

[Vaelis]

Got your idea: "there should be no ISBNs on the wiki, since they're of no use to me".

If I really thought that, I would have removed them completely.

One ISBN is enough if people really want to use them to find the books.

[onizuka-gto]

I think the best solution is that if people really want to find the ISBN for this, then my suggestion is to simply put a link to the information.

As there is more then one ISBN, putting two is a mere token gesture.

It's either ONE or ALL.

Const2k has mentioned that he has sources for these ISBN, so just put a link to it.

Simple.

[Vaelis]

Const2k has mentioned that he has sources for these ISBN, so just put a link to it.

Simple.

I agree with this.

[HolyCow]

I always thought the ISBN was to help people find the original Japanese books. The translations can be googled up fairly easy enough - I don't see the need to insert them into the main project page. A link (to all of them) would be sufficient.

[Const2k]

Const2k has mentioned that he has sources for these ISBN, so just put a link to it.

I'd like to keep B-T ad-free, as it is now. This always lets Big Boss say that B-T is non-profit. I wouldn't even want to put Google links for ISBNs (maybe someone prefers Yahoo or Altavista or insert_your_fav_search_engine), let alone online book stores.

I always thought the ISBN was to help people find the original Japanese books. The translations can be googled up fairly easy enough - I don't see the need to insert them into the main project page. A link (to all of them) would be sufficient.

It was, and, to my knowledge, it is. All ISBNs we speak of are those of original books and their reprints. Though buying official translations will in some (very) indirect way still support book's author, I think that buying original book/its reprint is "less indirest" way to transfer your funds to the author. Hence I'm NOT willing to provide ISBNs of official translations.

Spoiler! :

Though it may be just me. Having some series licensed and (not) translated in US means that it's unavailable in Russia. That's the reason I don't like official English translations of light novels: it makes them next to impossible to obtain where I live. Examples are numerous, though most of all I pity FMP novels and Ah! My Goddess First End...

[Vaelis]

A solution:

We remove all the ISBNs in the "Series Overview"
We add a link to a "Zero no Tsukaima's ISBN" page on the wiki where you can put Zero no Tsukaima's ISBNs and an explanation of how to use them.

[Const2k]

A solution:

1. You add a link to a "Zero no Tsukaima Series Overview" page on the wiki where you will put Zero no Tsukaima's ISBNs from history of main ZnT page.
2. We remove all the ISBNs in the "Series Overview", leaving only link to #1
3. I will put (a link to Wikipedia/Wikibooks') explanation of how to use ISBNs on #1.

If you've broken something, you are to fix it yourself. I'll polish the result. Everything's fair and everyone's happy.