Zero no Tsukaima Unified Guidelines

General discussion related to this novel series

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BlckKnght
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Post by BlckKnght »

I've just made a sweep through the first part of the chapter, rewriting stuff as I went. One of the systematic changes I made was to put Saito's thoughts in italics, so that they stand out from the narration. I'm not sure if this is how we will want to keep it, but I thought I'd try it as an experiment. His thoughts, unlike the narration, I've put primarily in the first person and present tense, while the narration is all in third person and past tense. If we go some other route, we'll need some other way to make passages that switch between the two voices comprehensible.

Here's an excerpt from the text that shows the changing voices, and my suggested solution (from page 14):

What kind of look is that? He's dressed like a wizard. Is he sane? I've got it, this must be a place for cosplay. But it doesn't seem to have the right atmosphere for it. Suddenly Saito was gripped with fear. What am I going to do if this is a religious group? It is possible. They could have put me to sleep somehow and brought me here while I was taking a walk in town. That mirror must have been a trap. If not, I have no explanation for this. I'd better stay quiet, until I know what is going on, Saito thought to himself.
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bicube
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Post by bicube »

I like the italicizing of Saito's tjoughts. Makes it easier to understand since the story switches from his thoughts to narration at times.
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onizuka-gto
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Post by onizuka-gto »

yeah. mind you, i think they might keep all these things, after all they are going to change the typefonts.
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure.Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official test record, followed by death. Good luck."

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Da~Mike
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Post by Da~Mike »

Funny... I thought the "Unified Guidelines" thread was supposed to be in the "Unified Guidelines" folder... oh never mind. :P

Right... I see people still like the forum more huh?

I guess I might as well concede, although I do hope everyone posts things within a certain thread or two and not scatter them...

Anyhow, regarding a few editing issues:

How much liberty do we have when editing the raw English translations?
Since I haven't looked (didn't want to) at the source text yet, I chose not to edit anything that appeared to be awfully wrong.
I've only made (and for the meantime) only will make edits that have grammatical and consistency issues.

About italics:
This reminds me of what we discussed for the Haruhi novels...
Well, it depends on whether you're a stickler for "absolute conformity" with respect to the Japanese novels. I was very much in support for using italics to highlight "Kyon's inner speech" but I don't think the translators liked it.

Hence, I'll just sit on the fence for this particular issue. :P

About "special" terms and names
Again, I will not touch these. I believe a translator has stood his/her ground on this very issue so I have no desire to evoke his/her wrath...

Well, that’s my two pence for the day.
I'll be losing pounds if I keep this up! :P
Last edited by Da~Mike on Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BlckKnght
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Post by BlckKnght »

Da~Mike wrote:About italics:
This reminds me of what we discussed for the Haruhi novels...
Well, it depends on whether you're a stickler for "absolute conformity" with respect to the Japanese novels. I was very much in support for using italics to highlight "Kyon's inner speech" but I don't think the translators liked it.

Hence, I'll just sit on the fence for this particular issue. :P
I think it is more necessary here, because the narrative vocie is not consistant with Saito's voice. Kyon never says "Kyon said" in the Haruhi books, but the narrator of this text does use Saito's name throughout.

It also let us fix up the crazy tense conflicts that were going on, since Saito's thoughts can be in present tense much of the time and the narrator can still speak in past tense. (This is an issue I think we still have in some chapters of Haruhi.)

Anyway, I think your fixes were good. I reversed one small change you made, where you changed a comma to a period in:

"Hey." Louise said to Saito.

I think it should be considered a single sentance, so the quote should have a comma at the end. But now we're clearly not discussing Unified guidlines, so maybe we should discuss it on another thread, if neccessary.
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Post by onizuka-gto »

Da~Mike wrote: How much liberty do we have when editing the raw English translations?
Since I haven't looked (didn't want to) at the source text yet, I chose not to edit anything that seemed appeared to be awfully wrong.
I've only made (and for the meantime) only will make edits that have grammatical and consistency issues.
liberity of the interpretation is unfortunately slightly more restricted, due to the nature of this project.

If you wish, i will create a protect page with the raw English Translation as the "Control".
So you may referr back to it.

(plus I'm thinking of using it as our release, so that Baka-Tsuki Readers can have the fun of editing it towards a Baka-Tsuki style. :p )

It will be in our interest to keep it close to the translation, complete change of intepretation should be avoided, but we are expected to do sentence restructuring and so forth so it'll be grammatically correct.
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure.Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official test record, followed by death. Good luck."

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Da~Mike
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Post by Da~Mike »

BlckKnght
Well, I'll let the italics thing be your call. A good one in my opinion. :P

And um, I don't actually recall replacing a comma for a period...
I believe I replaced commas with full-stops or semi-colons but I don't think I used a period. :?

My fixes were minor at best. Whereas you (and the naming game and the others) really re-worked the script! It looked a lot better when I saw it this afternoon! :wink:

Onizuka
I always try my best to avoid interpreting to the extent that I twist the original meaning (though I have made mistakes in the past...).

A control sounds like a fantastic idea! Definitely something I would expect to come from a scientist! :D (you did CompSci right?)
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onizuka-gto
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Post by onizuka-gto »

not exactly. :lol:


Anyway, i think i will do this for all chapters.

good way for people to easily pull it up to compare, if you have tabbing on your brower. I mean not everyone has two monitors and a 52" hi-def TV to view everything on. :p
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure.Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official test record, followed by death. Good luck."

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Post by the_naming_game »

These are some examples to illustrate the different expectations expressed by "that's the only thing" and "that's what" -- it's a discussion aid, so that's why it's here as if for no reason.

ex1
Louise learns that her best friend is an alien, and can fly.
  • Alien: Please try to calm down. I would do anything for you.
    Louise: That's the only thing that makes sense here! (nothing else does!)
    Alien: What, it isn't good enough that I'd do anything?
    Louise: Well ... I didn't mean it that way, but ...
    Alien: But what?
Louise learns that her best friend is an alien, and can fly.
  • Alien: Please try to calm down. I would do anything for you.
    Louise: But that's what makes sense here! (yes, stop arguing about the alien stuff, the love is what makes sense! -- note that such thoughts contradict the alien's actions. He was ALREADY trying to calm her down. So this kind of motivation is a little bit off.)
    Alien: Yes, isn't it?
    Louise: Yes, all we need is love!
    Alien: Come here, my darling!
Note how either red response is out of place, when switched over to the other dialogue.

In the second, "That's what makes sense here!" is actually a more fitting choice.

ex2
Louise learns that she has summoned someone to be her familiar, and that person is a commoner.
  • Saito: Please try to get a little bit worried about this. Something's wrong! I don't belong here! See? Look at this computer!
    Louise: But that's the only thing I don't understand. (I know you're a commoner and you're my familiar. So go ahead and act like one! Don't bug me with this stuff.)
    Saito: have you seen anything like this (sure, you want to dismiss it, but you've never seen anything like it! you can't just ignore it! what do you mean, the only thing, isn't that enough???)
    Louise: No, but ...
    Saito: But what?
Louise learns that she has summoned someone to be her familiar, and that person is a commoner.
  • Saito: Please try to get a little bit worried about this. Something's wrong! I don't belong here! See? Look at this computer!
    • Saito-alt: Hey, it's great, I'm gonna be a familiar! woohoo! I can live with this hot girl and play with my notebook computer! (this would fit the response better.)
    Louise: But that's what I don't understand.
    • Louise-alt: That's what I don't understand! (yeah! I knew something was bugging me! That's it! That computer!)
    Saito: Well, if you're so worried about not understanding it, then send me back!(sure, you want to dismiss it, but you've never seen anything like it! you can't just ignore it! what do you mean, the only thing, isn't that enough???)
    Louise: (sobbing) I can't! It's a one way spell, I'm so sorry, so so sorry!
    Saito: Damn right you better be sorry!
Louise:
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Da~Mike
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Post by Da~Mike »

Interesting little examples you came up with The naming game. :P

Anyhow, there are two things that I wanted to discuss here, one of them being a personal bugbear of mine...

With respect to page 12
"During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had gotten there."

I must say that I disagree with the particular change that I highlighted in bold. While I am aware that it is an American term, I am completely unfamiliar with its usage (except that it is the American alternative for "got") thus, it seems wrong to me.

Louise and Saito's respective speech patterns.
As I was reading through the script, I began to wonder if Louise was using a manner of speech that is noticeably different from Saito's.
On the basis that she's a "noble", one would assume she would speak eloquently or at least with a high degree of etiquette (e.g. Prince William)... Unless she is a bratty, obnoxious kind of noble (e.g. Prince Harry).

If there is a notable difference, may I suggest that we change Louise's speech patterns to be similar to that of either The Royal Family or make her sound like a French noble of the days of old?
I'd also suggest we keep Saito's speech patterns to be that of either the American colloquial of some other form of colloquial English.
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Post by onizuka-gto »

oh god. your gonna put the queen's english in it?

Your mad mike...
:roll:
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Da~Mike
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Post by Da~Mike »

It's not that I especially want to use the Queen's English in the ZnT scripts. I simply thought that it might be more interesting that way. :P

But like I mentioned in my earlier post if anyone read it carefully, I would only suggest this change if there is any noticeable difference in the speech patterns used by the numerous characters.
Last edited by Da~Mike on Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Nandeyanen »

I remembered reading nearly the same question on the AQS forums, so here's what the response was:

jdennis007: How does Louise talk to Saito, in other words what form does she use with him? Sorry, but I am just trying to establish the social structure between them.

Sushi-Y: Standard feminine casual language. A little strong with the commands, but well, he's her servant, after all.
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Post by onizuka-gto »

Montmorency the Fragrance -> Montmorency the Perfume

I disagree on this change, and while it's listed on sushi-y post, it is open to debate.

Fragrance is a more sophisticated description, of Montmorency rune name.
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Da~Mike
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Post by Da~Mike »

I decided to check out Kuroneko's ZnT fan subbed anime to get a better idea of what novel we're working on is like and... I must say that I was some what surprised and a little disappointed.

To put it simply, just by watching 3 episodes of the anime version of ZnT, I have concluded that it is basically:
Harry Potter x Shakugan no Shana x Pokemen + Love Hina = Zero no Tsukaima
I'm not sure what to say about the anime except that I've little praise for it. I pray that the novels are better (though I expect to be disappointed).


Based on Louise's mannerisms from the anime, I think we should leave the characters' speech as it is (if that's a reliable basis for conclusion). The so called "nobles" in the anime are portrayed to be obnoxious rascals so having them speak casually (or even rudely) should be appropriate.


Regarding Montmorency's... "Rune name", the two variations are synonymous. The only slight difference is that being called a fragrance is slightly more accurate than being called a perfume.
Here's why I think so:

* Fragrance (noun) 1 sweetness of smell. 2 a sweet smell or odour.
ETYMOLOGY: 15c: from Latin fragrare to give out a smell.

* Perfume (noun) 1 a sweet smell; a scent or fragrance. 2 a fragrant liquid prepared from the extracts of flowers, etc, for applying to the skin or clothes; scent.
ETYMOLOGY: 16c: from French parfum, from Latin per through + fumare to impregnate with smoke.

What I would do is to simply substitute the word with its definition to see which word would fit better.

For "fragrance":
* Montmorency the sweetness of smell
* Montmorency the sweet smell or odour

For "perfume":
* Montmorency the sweet smell; scent or fragrance
* Montmorency the fragrant liquid prepared from the extracts of flowers, etc, for applying to the skin or clothes; scent

Thus, I agree with Onizuka and would support the "rune name" of Montmorency the Fragrance as opposed to Montmorency the Perfume
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