Scientific tern for tsundere.

[Dan]

I ran across this on Wikipedia...it seems to fit the tsundere definition and proves they are mentally unstable beings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_formation

[b0mb3r]

hmm a good exercise reading for my brain. how about one for yuki?

[shichinanatsu]

while it does really seem to make sense, as a psych major with interest in literature, i have to digress..

the term 'tsundere' is literary in nature, i.e. a template for plot-driven character development. the rest is probably common sense for all the otaku in here, so read ahead if you wish..

your character suffers from - his/her POV - unreasonably embarrassing thoughts and feelings (romantic, as is usually the case) with regards to the main protagonist, so he or she attempts to sublime them under a veneer of overt annoyance, i.e. tsun-tsun. overtime though, the main protagonist's character - likely honest, or perhaps dense - begins to wear through the tsundere's defenses. it takes a considerable amount of psychological stamina to project such an imago, and besides, protagonist and circumstance conspire to lead the tsundere to a conclusion that the protagonist may actually be deserving of the tsundere's true nature. while precipitating events vary, it is upon this realization that the tsun-tsun morphs into dere-dere

while technically a tsundere MAY be considered a particular usage of reaction formation as a def-mech, reaction formation itself is primarily employed - like its kin - against circumstances a person has little to do against - say issues like morality, homosexuality, etc. the tsundere strictly applies to interpersonal interaction, and unlike def-mechs, it generally resolves to the betterment of circumstances; most def-mechs stay for life, perhaps taking years of psychotherapy to gradually lower.

[b0mb3r]

lol did you got that from tv tropes?

[Beware the talking cat]

Well, it appeals to Froid, so it has to be BS.

[b0mb3r]

And when did Freudians became machines? or you meant in the context how they are heavy believers of his work they might as well be brain-washed followers.

[Dan]

while it does really seem to make sense, as a psych major with interest in literature, i have to digress..

the term 'tsundere' is literary in nature, i.e. a template for plot-driven character development. the rest is probably common sense for all the otaku in here, so read ahead if you wish..

your character suffers from - his/her POV - unreasonably embarrassing thoughts and feelings (romantic, as is usually the case) with regards to the main protagonist, so he or she attempts to sublime them under a veneer of overt annoyance, i.e. tsun-tsun. overtime though, the main protagonist's character - likely honest, or perhaps dense - begins to wear through the tsundere's defenses. it takes a considerable amount of psychological stamina to project such an imago, and besides, protagonist and circumstance conspire to lead the tsundere to a conclusion that the protagonist may actually be deserving of the tsundere's true nature. while precipitating events vary, it is upon this realization that the tsun-tsun morphs into dere-dere

while technically a tsundere MAY be considered a particular usage of reaction formation as a def-mech, reaction formation itself is primarily employed - like its kin - against circumstances a person has little to do against - say issues like morality, homosexuality, etc. the tsundere strictly applies to interpersonal interaction, and unlike def-mechs, it generally resolves to the betterment of circumstances; most def-mechs stay for life, perhaps taking years of psychotherapy to gradually lower.

Hmmm, so a tsundere is choosing to act against their feelings as opposed to unwillingly doing so? Of course, I would say it is also a def-mech - they don't want to be seen as weak or turned down by their loved one. I guess the voluntary action keeps it from being a mental problem, but if it went unchecked, it could easily progress to something worse.

[shichinanatsu]

@b0mb3r: nope, that was my own take on tsundere and the reaction formation def-mech; i try to be original with my thoughts on subjective stuff, makes me use my head more..

@Bttc: i think i missed your context, mind running that again

Hmmm, so a tsundere is choosing to act against their feelings as opposed to unwillingly doing so? Of course, I would say it is also a def-mech - they don't want to be seen as weak or turned down by their loved one. I guess the voluntary action keeps it from being a mental problem, but if it went unchecked, it could easily progress to something worse.

@Dan: that was spot-on.. a common issue with the tsundere stereotype is pride, i.e. the tsundere considers itself as on a higher strata than the protagonist, and yet there is a vital distinction in which the protagonist bests the tsundere. likely examples would be Love Hina's Naru and ZnT's Louise..

about the more serious question on the psyche, the issue with pride is sometimes amplified by the thought that the tsundere is somehow similar to the protagonist, and yet the protagonist manages to pull through particularly tense and stress-inducing situations relatively scat-free, while the tsundere is usually left to take frustrations out on the protagonist. only parallel i can think of is NGE's Asuka, regarding Shinji..

this would be so much easier if we had a sort-of master list of tsundere characters that we can all agree on..

[Dan]

Great point on the conflict between the two involved. I think in Louise's case, the conflict is external - she is a noble but cannot use magic and Saito just happens to be around. But a lot of tsundere characters have to swallow their pride and realize they have to if there is going to be any romantic developement.

[Poke2201]

Great point on the conflict between the two involved. I think in Louise's case, the conflict is external - she is a noble but cannot use magic and Saito just happens to be around. But a lot of tsundere characters have to swallow their pride and realize they have to if there is going to be any romantic developement.

Or the implied fact that Louise has been ridiculed for most of her life for not having any "Magic" until Saito showed up. Its also very possible she had no friends either, therefore not having a very good social abilities when talking to peers. Seriously, when your big sister is a freaking sadist whip cracker when ever she gets mad, is it a wonder that Louise is a bit sadistic?

[ainsoph9]

It seems that some common elements are generally necessary to make a successful tsundere character such as being somewhat of a social outcast, not having an exactly proper upbringing (seeing that they do not know what love is entirely), having a tsukkomi character foil, and plenty of situations that invite misunderstanding. These are just a few things that I can think of at the moment, but the problem with the tsundere character type appears to be much more socially and psychologically rooted than the surface would say. If a real tsundere character existed in real life, I would wonder if that person was loved by their parents and family and if they were bullied or something of the sort. Such a dishonest character type generally does not come from someone who knows how to love and be loved. Rather, I would argue that some external force probably deeply hurt that person to act in that manner so that they feel that they cannot fully express their feelings without a sense of shame and fear. Unfortunately, I think that society creates these kinds of people; they just do not behave in the tsundere manner because the scarring is often so deep and because tsundere is a caricature of real life. The tsundere type still desires to be loved and to love; however, they sadly cannot because of the shield of pride that they put up to protect themselves from being hurt.

[shichinanatsu]

@ainsoph: methinks you're on to something..

the way the world is simulated in manga/anime/games/novels, most of what everything is has to be ideal, i.e. it is a world built for the story/characters.. with that in mind, normally inane concepts can be made overarching, or perhaps common sense can be slightly bent..

we want our tsundere to progress from "tsun" to "dere", which is why the archetype holds such appeal.. however, in real life we obviously don't have any clueless protagonist-types. true, there will be times when dealing with a real-life tsundere in tsun-phase might just wear anyone out, because imo most everyone also long for their own "protagonist" who will "clear their arc", so to speak.. (okay, i just realized this statement could be far-left-field..)

perhaps the same goes for the whole plethora of archetypes.. the otaku who wishes for someone who can bridge the gap between his/her world and reality, the lone warrior who longs to find someone worthy of devotion, the scarred lover who searches for someone who'll accept wholeheartedly, etc..

[ainsoph9]

Well, unfortunately, our society is full of escapism, which comes from the inability to cope with reality and face it properly. Frankly, I think that this is partly the result of ancient Greek Gnosticism in a sense. Just as Gnosticism expressed itself in terms of a separation of physical and spiritual/mystical, with physical being evil and spiritual/mystical being good, modern society expresses itself in terms of this world/reality being evil and some other worldly sense not grounded in reality as being good. The downside to this is that people cannot bridge these two "realms" as they are viewed as mutually exclusive, which is why the gap between the real and the ideal is so large. It also explains why the tsundere archetype and other archetypes in anime approach the ideal that cannot be achieved in real life. Likewise, it also explains why many people feel like "something is missing" in their lives because they have an expectation of reality to be like or equated with the ideal. For otaku, this is like eating poisoned candy. Ironically, while they attempt to escape the "pains" of their everyday life by isolating themselves in anime, they sadly reaffirm their isolation that many of them are trying to escape because they have an expectation of reality that just does not exist. Hence, many in Japan became NEETs out of an inability to cope with their true problems. The wimpy male lead protagonist does not help here; rather, it reaffirms the fallen identity of such individuals and causes them to feel jealousy because they identify with said lead character. In the end, the gap between reality and the ideal becomes too much for many to handle until they are almost permanently socially crippled.

[b0mb3r]

this is why i want to read Huxley's brave new world. how people today looks for entertainment as escapism. i always struggle with this whether i should make a story that helps people or it ends up being a part of a cycle for people to escape life. to me stories are dramatized plays that examines life uniquely and differently. stories help me by understand character's experience and their reaction towards what life (author) throws at them. to me without stories i wouldn't be the good man i am today. that and my lovely parents.

[ainsoph9]

I have had to read Brave New World twice for class. Cynically put, the novel is a philosophical Freudian-transcendental view on life that is literature's closest thing to pr0n. I would not really want to read it a third time. Cliff notes is your friend here.

Either way you write a story, people will more than likely read more into it than you intended or thought about so that, while you have to be a responsible writer, you cannot necessarily control how people will react to your writings.