Debates

Mystes · Post by **Mystes** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:41 pm

Just in the parliament.

ainsoph9 · Post by **ainsoph9** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:27 pm

Continuing the debate from "Random Internet Finds:"

Spoiler! :

It may be an armor, it is still an instrument to "protect" ourself from danger... but what danger? Somebody will not wear this all day long. Would I wear a gun because some people could randomly attack me?

Again, you do not have to have live in a rough neighborhood, work security, or feel that your life is in danger for this product to have meaning. For example, if you work in a factory that has many sharp objects around, this might be handy to prevent accidents. Also, if your child is prone to spills, this might help prevent them from skinning their knees on sharp rocks on the pavement. The bottom line is that it can save your life in everyday situations outside of playing some action hero.

But you are saying the truth about something. I do not come from somewhere where violence is the biggest inspiration of television. I do watch american news and it's always about murder, police chasing, dog attacks, airplane crash, tribunal case, violence between neighbour, violence in prison. Even if it is fiction. It inspire terror. I can't watch an american channel without having a thing about violence. I do live in a safety place and as a major canadian stereotype, i do not fell that someone will enter and rob my house if I leave the door unlock. I can be scare of walking at midnight outside, but I fundamentally know nothing will happen.

I will admit that the news here tends to be sensationalist, although I do not think that many other countries are that different in a sense. At the same time, you have the freedom and ability to choose whether or not something scares you. It occurs to me that you are allowing your feelings to control your decision mostly. Please do not take offense at this, but that is the feeling that I am getting from the majority of your comments.

Also, what you see on the news and TV is only a small fraction of what happens in the United States. Seeing that the country is so large, most of what happens do not make the news, just like for most other countries. For the most part, avoiding trouble is common sense here, and you can walk down the street just fine.

I do not live in USA, and you are right, I may be ignorant about that country, but when I go to the vacation house of my parents in Florida, which is in a gate town, I kinda fell that fear when I walk outside. Maybe it is not everywere the same! I do not know

Gated communities have their own rules, but that does not mean that the gated community is class A material. Also, Florida has its share of ghettos and problems. So, it really comes down to where you went. Trust me on this one: most places in the United States are not subject to drive-by shootings and random crimes.

One last thing. You talk about terrorism. I fell you speak of terrorist has being every criminal that does do something wrong against your country. For me, a terrorist (inspired of the word terror) is simply a name given to someone from Al-Kaïda (or any thing against the good of our world) that do an act of terror, like attacking your holy country. Somebody that likes Al-Kaïda is not a terrorist. He simply has an opinion. It may be "Against America" (as in bush saying " you are against America, or you are with America").

To me, a terrorist is someone who uses violent means to achieve an ideology in a triumphant manner over and against any other ideology. So, I do not care whether they are a radical Muslim, a radical Buddhist, a radical racist, etc. All I care about is whether they act in a civil manner as human beings should without resorting to violence to accomplish some end. If they cannot do this, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and I find it questionable as to whether or not they deserve the mercy of the rights that native citizens of a country are privileged to have.

As for someone who likes a terrorist group, it is quite naive to think that fans of terrorists are not terrorists themselves. Quite to the contrary, it is often from these "fans" that terrorist cells tend to recruit, which only provides more fuel for a dangerous ideology that is willing to take human life to succeed. One has to question the psychological profile of someone who is a fan of a mass murderer. Indeed, the backgrounds for these fans are often full of familial and social problems that have left the fan feeling angry, hurt, abandoned, and victimized by the culture they live in. In an effort to find solace and someone who feels similarly, people with this background have a tendency to turn to terrorists and terrorism. In today's modern world where the internet makes contact with terrorists very easy, the step from being a fan to becoming a player is becoming blurred increasingly.

But you are right. I'm not an american. My opinion means nothing for someone from USA. Your country represents god. Every thing you do is right. I can't understand the fear you fell every day. But you know what, when I read what you just wrote, I do fell fear.

Most people in the United States have no problem talking with foreigners about the image of the United States, given that the person is civil, polite, and actually knows what they are talking about without being arrogant. Unfortunately, most people have also run across at least one foreigner who was not and are somewhat cautious and jaded from the experience.

Also, my country is not my god, and most people here would agree that it is not theirs either. Likewise, most people here in the United States will say that this country has screwed up royally many times throughout its existence. Of course, what that is will vary from person to person. Regardless, the United States is not a perfect country nor is any other country for that matter. All countries have their share of problems, but it does not do any good to point out the spec of dust in your neighboring country's eyes when you have a board in your own. For that matter, "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones."

As for the "fear you feel everyday," I have no clue of what you are talking about. Talk to any sane and rational person in the United States (yes, they do exist), and you will probably get a weird look at best. I do not have a fear of being shot, stabbed, robbed, raped, or harmed in any way on a daily basis. It is paranoid to think that one has to live in a bubble to survive in the United States, if not just insane. People here might have their concerns, worries, and insecurities, but that is no different from anyone else.

One last thing: even though I know that you have visited the United States, I ask that you would please be a little wiser in how you express your opinion of the United States. Just like with anything else, when you are not one of the in-crowd, it is best to be very conservative when giving an opinion. So, I humbly ask that when you come visit next time, try visiting other places in the United States so that you can have a more informed opinion. Again, no one likes being told how one should have their house run. So, with you being a foreigner, I humbly and respectfully ask that you would not bad-mouth someone else's country outside of its physical borders. It is disrespectful, cowardly, and rude. At the same time, I respect your opinion, but I just find it incredibly naive and flawed. I also respect and support your right to say your opinion. Thank you very much for bearing with me on this one.

Post by **Hiro Hayase** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:25 pm

Terrorism does not happen spontaneously for no reason at all, it often happens due to local grievances. Opportunistic groups love to exploit these grievances for political goals or crimes. For example, the insurgency in the North Caucasus. The world is not black and white, good vs evil.
http://notwhatyoumightthink.wordpress.c ... -caucasus/

I really like this message sent to Americans... can they Imagine what they/their government does in the rest of the world?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao461iG9 ... plpp_video

Lesson by famous sociologist about role-thinking from another's shoes (perspective) and understanding them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUEGHdQO ... plpp_video

American's are stupid according to stuff like these... intelligent and informed Americans are becoming rarer these days.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6qIoMjf ... plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fys3MsKM ... plpp_video

I recommend these books if we want to debate about America and corporate media. The Price of Civilization by Jeffrey D. Sachs & Dark Ages America by Morris Berman. They have very provocative and compelling arguments, especially the latter.

On the Israeli-US relationship, this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF9y1qcw ... plpp_video

Palestinian bid for statehood at UN. The number of applause shows how much support they have at the UN General Assembly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8_rd3Pq ... plpp_video

Japan earthquake 2011 visualizations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKp5cA2s ... plpp_video

The post-American Middle East discussion:
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/emp ... 04306.html

P.S. I went to visit the main UN building in NY, but I couldn't get near the main podium in the General Assembly room. The guide said only diplomats are allowed there, not tourists.

P.S.S. I am American.

Post by **Silimir** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:33 pm

And I am an American too Hiro Hayase, but not a US person

Spoiler! :

ainsoph9 · Post by **ainsoph9** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:12 pm

Hiro Hayase, what is the up-shot of all of the stuff you have there? That is a lot of stuff, and I really cannot go through all of it at the moment. However, I am getting a feeling that your basic position is that the United States's foreign policy is all messed up and that you side with the Arabs and Palestinians on the territorial dispute in Israel. Am I correct on this? If so, then, if you are a citizen of the United States, fine. I will respectfully disagree with you on both issues. However, I will admit that I do not like the current foreign policy. Even so, I prefer not to bad-mouth my country on the internet. It is just improper. If you are not a citizen of the United States, then I must refer you to my previous comments in my last post. Thank you.

@Silimir:

Spoiler! :

Again, yes the armor is some kind of protection in case of accident. But in the article, it is clearly to protect from being stab.

Watch the video that comes with the article.

About news: Other countries are not the same. East Canada, yes, but not middle and western Canada. I went in china 5 weeks and chinese news is about the governement and tv series (westerns, old wars and baby girl series). France is not like that. I also went in Hispanic country and it is not violent as USA tv show.

You know, you are not exactly picking the countries that have the reputation for news coverage and TV programming. China's news stations are all government-controlled, which means that you are being fed propaganda. France does not necessarily have violent programming, but you can watch pr0n on prime time television. Which Hispanic country were you in? Most of them are not exactly stable or have the best media-producing facilities, not to mention the fact that a good chunk are practically communist.

Please, explanation! I am not angry against usa. I am only showing you my point of view. This is what i see of usa medias. Not something inspired on a whim. But if we talk of your comments in the commune, well isn't it inspirered on a whim?

I am saying that it seems to me that you tend to think more with your heart than with you head. In other words, you let your feelings do your thinking for you. Since you have obviously had the time to deliberate on these things, you have allowed your fear to dominate your perception of what the media has programmed in the United States. If you do not like the violent shows on TV, try watching some of the comedies or educational programming or something else. It is not like there is a shortage of them.

And one of the last point, i do respect your idea of terrorism, but it is yours, not mine. I did not said a fan, i said someone who likes something about a terrorism organization.

Uh, I do not really want to parse words here, but someone who likes something like that is called a "fan."

Spoiler! :

First off, I will say I have been outside of the United States to Eastern Europe, Canada, and Israel, outside of having been born in South Korea. Also, I do not need to leave this country to feel or understand real misery. There is enough of it here. Thank you. I live in some of that. Do I need to have to live in a country where terrorism occurs daily to understand it? Not entirely, no. However, I have seen poverty and the victims of terrorism. Someone I know helps terrorist victims in Israel, and I have personally seen the work that they do and met some of the victims.

My country is at war because we were attacked as a sovereign by a group of radical Islamist terrorists. I do not care what you think about 9/11 or whatever conspiracy theories you may have. The fact is that radical Islam is a problem because it claims lives.

Al-Kaida came into existence because it hates Israel and all of Western civilization, including Canada and Europe, not just the United States and its policies. It hates them on religious grounds primarily, not political ones. All Islamist terrorist cells share that one thing in common; they just cannot agree on how to do it. All of these terrorist groups have declared a jihad (Muslim "holy" war) on the West and Israel. It is because, to them, the West and Israel represent another Deity outside of their own. However, it is a lie and deception that their god and the G-d of Christianity and Islam are the same. The Arab and Islamic mind says that it is a humiliation for these things to exist as they are essentially in contradistinction to Islam and its ideals. Hence, they must be destroyed. Regardless of whether or not the United States's hands are black from petrol, these countries, their leaders, their citizens, and the terrorist groups that they support would still hate and want to kill every Westerner and Jewish Israeli alive. At the same time, the United States is allies with Saudia Arabia and other countries in the Middle East, and we line their pockets with silver and gold from the oil.

The United States has officially ceased from a position of imperialism since the early 1900s, but it still maintains the Monroe Doctrine. At the same time, it does exercise the right to protect its national interests just like every other sovereign nation on the planet.

Lastly on the paragraph you wrote, people would hate the United States no matter what we did or do. They would find some way to hate us. I do not say that to act as a victim. Rather, I have repeatedly found that those that hate the United States do it because they are taught that hatred, or they think that hating the United States is somehow a scapegoat for their own country's problems. At the same time, I know that the United States is not perfect. We have screwed up royally by involving ourselves in wars that we had no business joining. It explains our country's current woes in foreign affairs. Regardless, I personally could not care less if someone hates the United States. It is simply not my problem. They are the ones with the issue. Let them deal with it.

Look at the israel/palestine conflict. It was the country of Palestinian people and Israelian people. After the WW2, israel people wanted a country. But they can't, we are in the twenty/twenty-one century, they must integrate a society and live with our era. But what they did is buying the country piece per piece. And USA are with them because? Canadian usually says it's because Israelian people controls the economy of USA.

Let me give you a short history lesson because there are many problems with what you are saying here. Going back to 138 C.E., Israel was occupied by the Romans and had their temple in Jerusalem destroyed during the Bar Kochba Revolt that ended that year. Ever since then, the Jewish people were sent into exile, and they have desired to reclaim their homeland. During the time of the exile, there has always been a Jewish remnant in Israel. After the Ottoman empire came to rise, some Arab peasants came to live in the area, but they were mostly non-owners or squatters on the land. Those Arabs that owned the land abandoned it during the Israeli War of Independence. At this time, no Palestinian people existed. Rather, they are the creation of Yasser Arafat in 1969, as they are a conglomeration of Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, etc. In the mid-1800s, the Zionist movement began, which promoted the return of the Jews to Israel. In 1948, the State of Israel was founded after a bloody war with the British and the Arabs. Israel won that war and their independence. Ever since then, the United States has been officially their ally because of the precedent set by the President, a Christian, at the time, who supported the Jews having their own homeland. Unofficially, the United States has repeated undermined Israel's sovereignty by controlling Israeli domestic policy and military ability. The Middle Eastern conflict is a domestic issue, not a global one.

Canadians who say that Israel controls the United States's economy are either ignorant, stupid, Anti-Semitic, or a combination of the above. In some case, I would suspect that it is a combination of all of the above. The claim that Israel has economic sway over the United States is utterly ridiculous, especially given that the GDP and GNP of the United States much larger as well as military and political might and influence. On top of this, Israel is approximately the size of New Jersey, of which the southern half is entirely desert, except for Eilat. The claim you speak of actually is an old Anti-Semitic charge against Jews that takes its origins in the Middle Ages. It was made more "popular" via the early 1910s book, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," which is full of Anti-Semitic rhetoric that accuses the Jews of wanting to take over and rule the world while maintaining the lie that all Jews are greedy, wealthy, and penny-pinchers. The book was written by an Anti-Semite and was sponsored by Henry Ford, a well-known Anti-Semite. So, you and all of your Canadian friends and enemies who believe this lie should be ashamed of yourselves because these are the kinds of lies that kill people and defame them.

Is that a joke?

No. It is a common saying in English.

But you are true in saying that not everybody is scare. It is more the conservative right people. Texas person are kinda scary, with all their guns Also the extremist, like sarah palin.

Texans are nice people. I know a few. They support gun rights, but not all of them own guns. Also, Sarah Palin is not an extremist nor is she from Texas. She is a moderate conservative in the Republican Party. Please get your facts straight before you speak.

Post by **arczyx** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:24 pm

ainsoph9 wrote:Al-Kaida came into existence because it hates Israel and all of Western civilization, including Canada and Europe, not just the United States and its policies. It hates them on religious grounds primarily, not political ones. All Islamist terrorist cells share that one thing in common; they just cannot agree on how to do it. All of these terrorist groups have declared a jihad (Muslim "holy" war) on the West and Israel. It is because, to them, the West and Israel represent another Deity outside of their own. However, it is a lie and deception that their god and the G-d of Christianity and Islam are the same. The Arab and Islamic mind says that it is a humiliation for these things to exist as they are essentially in contradistinction to Islam and its ideals. Hence, they must be destroyed. Regardless of whether or not the United States's hands are black from petrol, these countries, their leaders, their citizens, and the terrorist groups that they support would still hate and want to kill every Westerner and Jewish Israeli alive. At the same time, the United States is allies with Saudia Arabia and other countries in the Middle East, and we line their pockets with silver and gold from the oil.

Actually, Islam does not teach to destroy other civilization just because it is contradicting its ideals. It's more like "I take care of my business, and you take care of your own". However, I can not deny there are some people who are taking things to the extreme, and the fact that there are many people who have prejudice and discrimination against Islam in the west (like saying all muslims is terrorist) doesn't help either. You can't generalize an entire religion just because less than 1% of its believer is an extremist.

ainsoph9 wrote:The United States has officially ceased from a position of imperialism since the early 1900s

That's a lie. I will explain it below.

ainsoph9 wrote:Let me give you a short history lesson because there are many problems with what you are saying here. Going back to 138 C.E., Israel was occupied by the Romans and had their temple in Jerusalem destroyed during the Bar Kochba Revolt that ended that year. Ever since then, the Jewish people were sent into exile, and they have desired to reclaim their homeland. During the time of the exile, there has always been a Jewish remnant in Israel. After the Ottoman empire came to rise, some Arab peasants came to live in the area, but they were mostly non-owners or squatters on the land. Those Arabs that owned the land abandoned it during the Israeli War of Independence. At this time, no Palestinian people existed. Rather, they are the creation of Yasser Arafat in 1969, as they are a conglomeration of Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, etc. In the mid-1800s, the Zionist movement began, which promoted the return of the Jews to Israel. In 1948, the State of Israel was founded after a bloody war with the British and the Arabs. Israel won that war and their independence. Ever since then, the United States has been officially their ally because of the precedent set by the President, a Christian, at the time, who supported the Jews having their own homeland. Unofficially, the United States has repeated undermined Israel's sovereignty by controlling Israeli domestic policy and military ability. The Middle Eastern conflict is a domestic issue, not a global one.

Firstly, the Arabs didn't came when the Ottoman Empire is rising, they have been there much earlier. I don't know when exactly, but at the time of the crusade, they're already there.

Second, even though there are no Palestine nation when the Israel is founded, there are many people who lived there already, and whatever the Jews experienced in the hand of holocaust, it doesn't give them the right to claim other people's land and expel them just like that. Rather, in my humble opinion, they should ask it from the Germany (since they're the one who is guilty).

Third, I think it will be a chaos if everyone is allowed to make a nation in the place where their ancestors lived 2000 years ago.

Fourth, even if it is allowed, do you know that the west (especially the US) was contradicting themselves at the same time? At 1945, just after the WW II finished, the Dutch, backed by the Allies (basically, the west), invaded Indonesia, where its people have been lived there since 200 AD approximately. There's no way this can be called as 'ceased from imperialism'. It's kinda funny that when the Germany invaded Europe, the west called it 'the axis of evil', while at the same time, the west were doing pretty much the exact same thing to the third world country before WW II. Proved that the winner is justice if you ask me.

ainsoph9 wrote:Someone I know helps terrorist victims in Israel, and I have personally seen the work that they do and met some of the victims.

Have you meet the people in Gaza then? They're struggling just to live their everyday life. Even if there are the so-called 'terrorist' in Gaza, it doesn't give Israel the right to quarantine the whole population including women and children and attack a ship for humanity that want to help them.

Oh, and the Indonesia's war for independence finally ended in 1949 in an agreement where Indonesia have to pay for the Dutch's debts. Some justice it is when they're ruling Indonesia in tyranny for hundreds of years.

Forgive me if I offended you, Dutch, Germany, Jews, and US people. I know that you guys are not in the wrong (but your government is, or at least 'was').

PS : I also hate my government, they're basically the epitome of corruption. And regarding the UN, there will be no democracy there as long something called 'veto' exist, and I can blame the government of 5 countries on this. Especially the US, who calls itself a model for democracy yet used the veto most often.

Post by **Silimir** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:00 pm

Spoiler! :

I would really like to respond to what you have said, but this is really too much. I disagree on so many points and I do not want an other hour of intense thinking

Why do i want to stop it there? Seriously, if you agree with the extremist of your country, then I can't say nothing. It is your opinion and I know I have nothing more to say when you are in front of people that are not open minded.

You are going way to much deep in your explanation. Begin by asking your self, what have the USA has do to so many other countries.

Also, I want to stop this there because you are insulting me by saying I know nothing about what is really happening. Do you know how many months I have been in poor country, and do you know many hour I have work on the Israelian/Palestinian conflict? No. So please, don't pretend I'm ignorant because I have a different way to see things.

AND: It may be a commun way to speak, but I really do not appreciate insults hidden in metaphoric sentences.

My country is at war because we were attacked as a sovereign by a group of radical Islamist terrorists. I do not care what you think about 9/11 or whatever conspiracy theories you may have. The fact is that radical Islam is a problem because it claims lives.

Al-Kaïda came to existence because your country have put their hands on a country that is not theirs. That's what I believe! And... who are you to say that someone can't claim their life? Leave them with their beliefs. They won't force you to respect their religion.

Israel has done horrible things to Palestinian. They suck their lands, one per one. The education I have receive about this conflict is clearly not the same. I do know the historic background. I simply do think that teachers will be more moderate in their explanation in a country were a position is already made by everyone. Canada may be allied with Israel, but certainly not Quebec. Why? Simply because we are a province that tends to left ideals. Quebecers hate their current federal government.

An opinion on a debate can change. Do you really think it is because one president preferred Israel than Palestinian that it is still the same after 60 years?

Who care of the size of a country? Canada is bigger than USA. It doesn't give us the right to exploit the world and proclaim ourselves the defender of liberty.

But seriously, you do not care right? As YOU said, I'm a foreigner, what your country is doing is none of my business. But you know, one day, your country will regret it. Can it really win a war against reason? Against the majority.

Bottom of the line.

Post by **Hiro Hayase** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:47 pm

Dark Ages America by Morris Berman, I recommend reading this book. I can also just quote stuff from it every now and then for you too. Instead of debating, I would rather argue.

In Dark Ages America, the pundit Morris Berman argues that the nation has entered a dangerous phase in its historical development from which there is no return. As the corporate-consumerist juggernaut that now defines the nation rolls on, the very factors that once propelled America to greatness—extreme individualism, territorial and economic expansion, and the pursuit of material wealth—are, paradoxically, the nails in our collective coffin. Within a few decades, Berman argues, the United States will be marginalized on the world stage, its hegemony replaced by China or the European Union. With the United States just one terrorist attack away from a police state, Berman's book is a controversial and illuminating look at our current society and its ills. -Amazon

The notation that one should always show blind loyalty to one's country even if the said country is committing crimes against humanity, promoting national interests instead of human rights, and other wrongs is just unethical. What do we call the Germans who opposed the Nazi regime and Hitler? We call them Germans. In a plural and democratic society we can criticize our own government whether its on the internet or not.

The United States has a history of setting up "proxies" and puppet governments in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. Not to mention that the annual defense budget for the US exceeds the rest of the worlds combined defense budgets. The US also has an estimated amount of 1000+ military bases around the world. The US is what we call a modern empire. The US is currently engaged in "a perpetual war for perpetual peace" which is what this War on Terror is about. The US is just one terrorist attack away from becoming a "police state."

NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) is the reason why so many young Mexicans are leaving their farms and opting to illegally cross the American border. The Mexican farmers cannot compete with subsidized corporations in the US and Canada. A number of people in the US complain about illegal immigration and how it's taking away their jobs, but rarely do these people look at the roots of the problem. They always look at the fruits of the problem.

The drug violence gripping Latin America is actually funded by Americans (the demand). If there is a demand, then there will be a supply. I will elaborate on this topic more as soon as I find my sources.

Ironically, Israel was the one who secretly told the Shah of Iran that he needed nuclear weapons and that they were more than willing to offer assistance.

Understand Iran No War: Documentary On Iran's Nuclear History
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGwBun4Nin8

To be bluntly honest, the expansionist Israel of today is not very different from manifest destiny America. The US used to massacre Native Americans tribes and demolish their homes, and build their own settlements over the land. To this date, there is utterly a lack of criticism towards Israel in the US media. Criticism is silenced on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Obama and Romney at a number of times in the election campaign and debates looked like they were running for President of Israel, instead of the US. PM Benjamin Netanyahu even received a full house applause at Congress, while Obama the American President received a few applause when giving a speech about the state of the US economy and the budget. Isn't something wrong with this picture?

http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/001015.html
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.truetorahjews.org/

If you haven't looked at any of those videos in my previous post or this one, then I suggest you do. And take your time please, I would love to engage in an intellectual exchange of ideas.

Defense budget statistics from 2011.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/1579 ... -spending/

Video: Hillary Clinton: 'We Created al-Qaeda'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnLvzV9x ... re=related

A Point Of View: What kind of superpower could China be?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19995218

ainsoph9 · Post by **ainsoph9** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:13 pm

@arczyx:

Spoiler! :

arczyx wrote:Actually, Islam does not teach to destroy other civilization just because it is contradicting its ideals. It's more like "I take care of my business, and you take care of your own". However, I can not deny there are some people who are taking things to the extreme, and the fact that there are many people who have prejudice and discrimination against Islam in the west (like saying all muslims is terrorist) doesn't help either. You can't generalize an entire religion just because less than 1% of its believer is an extremist.

Your argument would be more sound, if not for the fact that most Muslim countries do not have a separation of State and mosque. Most often, it is the case that the religious authorities are the political authorities, or the two have ties to each other one way or another. Hence, many of these countries fund terrorism with state funds while hiding known terrorists and allowing for the creation of terrorist training camps.

The Muslims that most people in the West are used to dealing with tend to be the more liberal Muslims and are more into the "Islam is a religion of love" thing. This would explain why many Westerners think that only part of Islam is dangerous. However, even the supposed "moderate" Fatah leadership says things like this:

PA Mufti Muhammad Hussein: “Palestine in its entirety is a revolution… continuing today, and until the End of Days. The reliable Hadith… says:
"The Hour [of Resurrection] will not come until you fight the Jews. The Jew will hide behind stones or trees. Then the stones or trees will call: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'”
(PA TV (Fatah), Jan. 9, 2012)

So, how loving is that?

That's a lie. I will explain it below.

You are taking what I said out of context.

Second, even though there are no Palestine nation when the Israel is founded, there are many people who lived there already, and whatever the Jews experienced in the hand of holocaust, it doesn't give them the right to claim other people's land and expel them just like that. Rather, in my humble opinion, they should ask it from the Germany (since they're the one who is guilty).

Ever since Biblical times, the Land of Israel has always been Jewish land. A Jewish presence has always been in the Land of Israel uninterrupted. Just because an exile is long does not mean that you do not want to go home. Also, I do not see how the Jews have expelled anyone. All land that you Palestinians being currently evicted from is where they were squatters and did NOT own the land legally nor did they have contract to own or rent. It was and is owned by Jews. Land that was given up by Arabs and Palestinians in the War of Independence was offered to be given back by the State of Israel multiple times up into the 1970s. Attempts are still being made when any Palestinian or Arab has a legitimate claim on the land with the correct paperwork.

Third, I think it will be a chaos if everyone is allowed to make a nation in the place where their ancestors lived 2000 years ago.

For the most part, this would not be a problem, seeing that most peoples that have been taken over either assimilated or were exterminated. The Jews are the only people who have maintained their identity after 2000 years of exile.

Fourth, even if it is allowed, do you know that the west (especially the US) was contradicting themselves at the same time? At 1945, just after the WW II finished, the Dutch, backed by the Allies (basically, the west), invaded Indonesia, where its people have been lived there since 200 AD approximately. There's no way this can be called as 'ceased from imperialism'. It's kinda funny that when the Germany invaded Europe, the west called it 'the axis of evil', while at the same time, the west were doing pretty much the exact same thing to the third world country before WW II. Proved that the winner is justice if you ask me.

It occurs to me that you are heavily conflating the Indonesian history of the time. You are forgetting that prior to WWII, Indonesia was a Dutch colony. (I do not agree with or condone this colonization). With the rise of Nazi Germany, the Dutch could no longer fight against the Japanese, who were trying to take over Indonesia. During the war, General MacArthur repeatedly expressed wanting to fight the Japanese in Indonesia but was told not to do so. Only until the end of the war were the Allies able to beat back the Japanese with Indonesian support. However, the Dutch wanted to re-establish their authority over Indonesia, despite the fact that the Japanese supported giving the Indonesians their own country and independence. They were able to do so for only a few years until the Indonesians won their independence. This primarily occurred because the British tried to make efforts to keep the peace in Indonesia, which the Dutch took to mean that the British supported re-colonization efforts. Outside of this, international reaction of the Dutch's actions was negative, which included the United States, the Soviet Union, and other major world powers.

Have you meet the people in Gaza then? They're struggling just to live their everyday life. Even if there are the so-called 'terrorist' in Gaza, it doesn't give Israel the right to quarantine the whole population including women and children and attack a ship for humanity that want to help them.

While not all of the people in Gaza are terrorists, the impetus is in the direction of making Gaza a terrorist hotbed. Yesterday, 80 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza. Over 10,000 rockets have been fired from Gaza at Israel in the past decade alone. For a group of people "struggling just to live their everyday life," I think that the number of rockets betrays the fact that they are spending their money on other things than home improvement, especially since we are dealing with a micro-economy. Likewise, the Gazans are not poor and repressed like most seem to think. When I was in Sederot, I could see the TV satellites on almost every house. Likewise, a couple years back, several 5-star restaurants opened in Gaza along with an Olympic-sized swimming pool.

Israel would rather not have to put a blockade on Gaza, but doing so is the only way that they can maintain their sovereignty as a nation while preserving the lives of its citizens. If terrorists in Gaza did not hide behind women and children while launching rockets from schools and hospitals, then I think that we would have a very different situation.

Also, these ships that are sending "aid" to the Gazans can send their aid through legitimate channels via Egypt or Israel, as Israel and Egypt have stressed. The fact that they choose to try to violate and break a legal naval blockade while ignoring Israel's repeated requests to do otherwise shows a blatant contempt for Israel and the Israeli authorities. Ever since the Mavi Marmara incident two years ago, Israel has taken even greater precautions to see that no casualties occurred. So far, they have been successful. All foreigners are held and then deported. The current citizens from the last flotilla are being held in custody for violating Israeli law.

Oh, and the Indonesia's war for independence finally ended in 1949 in an agreement where Indonesia have to pay for the Dutch's debts. Some justice it is when they're ruling Indonesia in tyranny for hundreds of years.

Did I ever say it was right?

Forgive me if I offended you, Dutch, Germany, Jews, and US people. I know that you guys are not in the wrong (but your government is, or at least 'was').

That is not an apology. That is just sheer sarcasm.

PS : I also hate my government, they're basically the epitome of corruption. And regarding the UN, there will be no democracy there as long something called 'veto' exist, and I can blame the government of 5 countries on this. Especially the US, who calls itself a model for democracy yet used the veto most often.

If I am not mistaken, you are referring to the UNSC, which is a joke, along with the rest of the UN. In particular, you are referring to the United States using its veto power on the Palestinian bid for statehood. On the ground in Israel, there are reasons why a Palestinian state cannot exist, among them being power, water, land, security, and other resources. Lastly, a part of democracy is the ability to veto, whether you like it or not.

@Silimir:

Spoiler! :

Al-Kaïda came to existence because your country have put their hands on a country that is not theirs. That's what I believe! And... who are you to say that someone can't claim their life? Leave them with their beliefs. They won't force you to respect their religion.

Believe what you want, but belief has NO grounds in reality, nor can it affect it in any way, shape, or form on its own. Also, that is the second time you have made that slanderous charge. Back it up or shut up.

Sure, I will be more than happy to leave them alone with their beliefs as long as they stop killing people. The funny thing is that they have not stop killing people. So, I guess that I cannot leave them alone, now can I?

It is laughable to think that you think that Al-Kaida will not force me to respect their religion. Why do you think that they are armed again? Trust me. It is not because they are the next Martin Luther King, Jr.

Israel has done horrible things to Palestinian. They suck their lands, one per one. The education I have receive about this conflict is clearly not the same. I do know the historic background. I simply do think that teachers will be more moderate in their explanation in a country were a position is already made by everyone. Canada may be allied with Israel, but certainly not Quebec. Why? Simply because we are a province that tends to left ideals. Quebecers hate their current federal government.

Where is your evidence for this charge? That is slander, and it is a lie. Also, I do not tend to trust teachers in the public school system because they tend to have a very liberal academic and political viewpoint on things without giving the other side of the argument.

An opinion on a debate can change. Do you really think it is because one president preferred Israel than Palestinian that it is still the same after 60 years?

The tendency is for Presidents to build upon their predecessors' achievements, not to destroy them. Even if a President disagrees with the policies of his predecessor, repeals of law are fairly uncommon.

Who care of the size of a country? Canada is bigger than USA. It doesn't give us the right to exploit the world and proclaim ourselves the defender of liberty.

Physical size of a country does matter because it means a lot when it comes to natural resources, economy, and military tactics. Regardless, you keep on making the same charges, but you are not backing them up.

But seriously, you do not care right? As YOU said, I'm a foreigner, what your country is doing is none of my business. But you know, one day, your country will regret it. Can it really win a war against reason? Against the majority.

Should I even give this statement any credit? Seriously, all bark, no bite. Please do not threaten me or my country. Again, it is easy to do that when you are safely at home in Quebec. Also, "reason" is what is responsible for the deaths of millions. The "reasonable ones" were the majority at the time as well. So, tell me; is it always the "reasonable ones" who win out?

@Hiro Hayase:

Spoiler! :

I do not agree with the way the United States has handled "settling the peace" in other countries, especially throughout the Cold War. Typically, this stems from the fact that the leaders and those in power who do such things have no understanding of the culture whatsoever. I understand that those decisions have brought us to the present, and that it has and is costing us financially and in human lives. At the same time, it is important to focus on the future that we can build together as a nation and worldwide. Even if the United States makes mistakes, so does everybody else. However, we all have the power to make a difference one way or another. So, to me, dwelling on the wrongs and mistakes of the United States does not achieve this. It does the opposite. So, instead of critiquing the United States, what have you done to make that difference for tomorrow?

NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) is the reason why so many young Mexicans are leaving their farms and opting to illegally cross the American border. The Mexican farmers cannot compete with subsidized corporations in the US and Canada. A number of people in the US complain about illegal immigration and how it's taking away their jobs, but rarely do these people look at the roots of the problem. They always look at the fruits of the problem.

The drug violence gripping Latin America is actually funded by Americans (the demand). If there is a demand, then there will be a supply. I will elaborate on this topic more as soon as I find my sources.

I agree that NAFTA is problematic. I also agree that something needs to be done for the Mexicans and with them. However, part of that problem stems from the corruption in the Mexican government.

As for the drug violence, part of that is Latin America governments' fault. Seeing that the corruption is so high there, it has become much more profitable to manufacture drugs than to grow crops. While I agree that citizens of the United States as well as the United States government are at fault to an extent, I do not think that they are solely to blame here.

Ironically, Israel was the one who secretly told the Shah of Iran that he needed nuclear weapons and that they were more than willing to offer assistance.

Yes, that is because the Shah of Iran was the ally of Israel and the United States at the time. However, President Carter thought it was a "crime against humanity" for him not to let the Shah stay in power. So, he had the Shah removed. That was one of the dumbest mistakes a President has made ever.

To be bluntly honest, the expansionist Israel of today is not very different from manifest destiny America. The US used to massacre Native Americans tribes and demolish their homes, and build their own settlements over the land.

How is Israel "expansionist?" Seriously, they have defined borders. They are not spilling over into their neighboring countries' territory. What you are saying makes no sense.

As for your suggestion that I need to see the videos you posted links to, I find it belittling and degrading for you to think or even suggest that I have to see them in order to have an "intelligent" conversation with you. I am hoping that I am just misreading your intent here. However, we can debate, talk, or whatever without me watching every second of those videos.

Post by **Hiro Hayase** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:30 pm

@ainsoph9

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... st-bank-up
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.464594
http://www.settlementsinpalestine.org/

Are the demolishing of Palestinian homes and building settlements on top of them not traits of being expansionist? Or is Israel under the impression that all the land is rightfully theirs, despite international condemnation and many UN resolutions declaring these settlements illegal? The rule of law does not apply here I guess?

You cannot talk about about cutting a pizza equally when one side is always eating it.

I take it your not even looking over my sources at all (I hope that's a misunderstanding on my part), but at least watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF9y1qcw ... plpp_video

Because the US never considers or bothers to remember the past, we always repeat it. "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana.

That is incorrect, the US did not remove the Shah. The widespread protest and resistance lead against the Shah scared him into exile. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini rise to power and the beginning of the Islamic Republic of Iran. After that uprising, we had the Revolutionary Guards overrun the royal guards of the Shah, and then the Iranian Hostage Crisis in 1979. The US and UK along with the rest of the world at the time were caught off-guard by the sudden turn of events.

ainsoph9 · Post by **ainsoph9** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:23 pm

@Hiro Hayase:

Spoiler! :

Are the demolishing of Palestinian homes and building settlements on top of them not traits of being expansionist? Or is Israel under the impression that all the land is rightfully theirs, despite international condemnation and many UN resolutions declaring these settlements illegal? The rule of law does not apply here I guess?

As I stated before, any Palestinian homes that are being demolished are illegally occupied. It is just like with any other country where someone illegally squats on a property without rent or ownership.

All or almost all settler activity that takes place is on unoccupied land. Often the land belonged to the settlers legally. However, Palestinians had come to squat on their land. If the land did not belong to anyone, typically the settlers take it as the Palestinians throw rocks at them and/or whine about how the land is supposedly being absconded by Jews.

Israel is a sovereign nation and has the right to act as one. It does not need the world telling it how to solve domestic problems. I do not think that anyone would want them telling them how run and live in their own home, much less their country. It is the same thing here. Why is it that when it comes to Israel a double standard is applied somehow? If Israel does it or does not do it, it is wrong. If it is anybody else, who cares?

The basis of said international condemnation stems from the interpretation of several UN resolutions. In these resolutions, it comes down to a few sentences that can potentially change the entire meaning of the documents. Likewise, most resolutions made the UN are patently anti-Israel and anti-Semitic. Israel has had more resolutions made against it than any other nation. It is funny how the UN, especially the UNSC and the UNHRC, likes to make Israel a target for ridicule while they have ignored much bigger problems and/or failed to do anything about them. Likewise, many of the governments and countries that like to criticize Israel are responsible for some of the greatest tragedies in history. Yet, they have the chutzpah to condemn Israel for just trying to survive. Also, whenever an incident happens with Israel, Israel always takes measures to ensure that it does not ever happen again. Israel is the only nation that trains its soldiers to value the lives of the comrades, innocent bystanders, and their enemies.

You cannot talk about about cutting a pizza equally when one side is always eating it.

One side is not always eating the pizza. It is just that mommy and daddy tend to listen to one sibling over the other. That is just because one sibling is more pronounced in giving public whining speeches.

I take it your not even looking over my sources at all (I hope that's a misunderstanding on my part), but at least watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF9y1qcw ... plpp_video

Alright. You used Al-Jazeera and "The Stream" as one of your sources. Excuse me for a second while I say, "YOU HAVE GOT TO BE @#$!%$#@ KIDDING ME!!!" *ahem* Al-Jazeera is terrorist funded, anti-Israel, anti-Semitic, has a radical Muslim slant, and will NOT give a "fair and balance" report on United States-Israel relations.

Because the US never considers or bothers to remember the past, we always repeat it. "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana.

Well, here is the thing. People in the United States do not remember the past because they really did not learn. On the other hand, Europeans have intentionally tried to forget the past, ignoring the consequences that it has had on the present.

That is incorrect, the US did not remove the Shah. The widespread protest and resistance lead against the Shah scared him into exile. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini rise to power and the beginning of the Islamic Republic of Iran. After that uprising, we had the Revolutionary Guards overrun the royal guards of the Shah, and then the Iranian Hostage Crisis in 1979. The US and UK along with the rest of the world at the time were caught off-guard by the sudden turn of events.

Not entirely true. The United States funded the removal of the Shah financially and with weapons support and training. The United States knew what it was doing...sort of. President Carter had full knowledge and did not hesitate to put the Ayatollah into power. The United States was one of the first nations to recognize him as leader of Iran. Then, virtually overnight, the Ayatollah became a dictator.

Post by **arczyx** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:41 am

@ainsoph9

Spoiler! :

Lastly, for everyone, please don't reply too fast. I'm having a hard time keeping up...

ainsoph9 · Post by **ainsoph9** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:08 pm

@arczyx:

Spoiler! :

arczyx wrote: Regarding the state and mosque integration, that is also a part of Islam teachings, and have worked incredibly well during the early and the golden age of Islam. You can't blame the religion just because the people who rule country is corrupted.

That argument would work if it was not for the fact that the imams are virtually in control of these countries. I am not talking about the princes of Saudia Arabia, who go to the West to party and then come home to look like saints again. While it is true that there is mass corruption in many Middle Eastern and Islamic countries, it is the conservative sects of Islam that are taking over these countries.

Let me give you an analogy. Supposed a general of the US Army is giving a speech in the front of his troops on the dawn of the upcoming war against the Soviets. He said, "We will not give up against communism! And we'll fight until they're completely exterminated!". Of course, he doesn't mean to kill all the Russian, but to subjugate their army. This is just an imaginary situation, but I think I made my point.

Your analogy would work, except for the fact that United States Army generals do not hide behind women and children and target innocents intentionally. They also do not target buses, civilian cars, schools, hospitals, and places that have no strategic or tactical impact on a war whatsoever. Terrorists do that. These terrorists have stated and made it their mission to wipe out all Jews and Christians. They have threatened to push Israel into the Mediterranean Sea. So, the analogy does not work.

Islam says that there'll always be some Jews who hate Islam. And this conflict will be escalated before the End of Days. That is when the above situation happened. And judging from Israel's attitude for the last 60+ years, it is hardly surprising that Islam and the Israel will go into a war.

Most Jews have no problem with Muslims. Many Jewish organizations are devoted to building ties with other religions, Islam included. However, Jews do have a problem with people do suicide bombings to kill innocent Jews in the name of Islam. They do have a problem with Islamic regimes using rhetoric that calls for the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of the Jewish people.

"Israel's attitude for the last 60+ years" has nothing to do with this. Israel is a small country that is just trying to survive.

I personally don't have anything against Jews. The same with the Dutch and Japanese even though they invaded my country in the past. However, I condemn the vile action that their government did/doing.

What is so vile about what the Israeli government is doing? Please give evidence.

I can't believe you just said that. By that same basis, Indonesia can claim Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei Darussalam, and Timor Leste as its territory. However, if you're already fixed on this position, I can say nothing more.

You are right. I am fixed on this position because it is the homeland of the Jews. Germany or anywhere else is NOT their homeland.

"Palestine joined the Islamic Empire following the 636 CE Battle of Yarmouk during the Muslim conquest of Syria." - Wikipedia

You are taking history out of context. During the Muslim conquest, Jews and Christians were forced to convert to Islam at sword-point. Those who did not convert were killed in droves. Those that did convert were allowed to live, but they had to live in conditions that deprived them of many of their rights and freedoms. So, if Israel "joined" the Islamic Empire, it was not by choice.

"In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine... After 1940, when the mandatory authority restricted Jewish land ownership to specific zones inside Palestine, there continued to be illegal buying (and selling) within the 65 percent of the total area restricted to Arabs.x

Thus when the partition plan was announced in 1947 it included land held illegally by Jews, which was incorporated as a fait accompli inside the borders of the Jewish state. And after Israel announced its statehood, an impressive series of laws legally assimilated huge tracts of Arab land (whose proprietors had become refugees, and were pronounced ‘absentee landlords’ in order to expropriate their lands and prevent their return under any circumstances)."

Nearly 80 percent of what was the historic land of Palestine and the Jewish National Home, as defined by the League of Nations, was severed by the British in 1921 and allocated to what became Transjordan. Jewish settlement there was barred. The UN partitioned the remaining 20-odd percent of Palestine into two states. With Jordan’s annexation of the West Bank in 1950, and Egypt’s control of Gaza, Arabs controlled more than 80 percent of the territory of the Mandate while the Jewish State held a bare 17.5 percent.

Despite the growth in their population, the Arabs continued to assert they were being displaced. From the beginning of World War I, however, part of Palestine’s land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins.

Jews actually went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in areas where Arabs might be displaced. They sought land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap and, most important, without tenants. In 1920, Labor Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as “the most important asset of the native population.” Ben-Gurion said “under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them.” He advocated helping liberate them from their oppressors. “Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement,” Ben-Gurion added, “should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.”

It was only after the Jews had bought all of the available uncultivated land that they began to purchase cultivated land. Many Arabs were willing to sell because of the migration to coastal towns and because they needed money to invest in the citrus industry.

When John Hope Simpson arrived in Palestine in May 1930, he observed: “They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay.”

In 1931, Lewis French conducted a survey of landlessness for the British government and offered new plots to any Arabs who had been “dispossessed.” British officials received more than 3,000 applications, of which 80 percent were ruled invalid by the Government’s legal adviser because the applicants were not landless Arabs. This left only about 600 landless Arabs, 100 of whom accepted the Government land offer.

In April 1936, a new outbreak of Arab attacks on Jews was instigated by a Syrian guerrilla named Fawzi al--Qawukji, the commander of the Arab Liberation Army. By November, when the British finally sent a new commission headed by Lord Peel to investigate, 89 Jews had been killed and more than 300 wounded.

The Peel Commission’s report found that Arab complaints about Jewish land acquisition were baseless. It pointed out that “much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased. . . . there was at the time of the earlier sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land.” Moreover, the Commission found the shortage was “due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population.” The report concluded that the presence of Jews in Palestine, along with the work of the British Administration, had resulted in higher wages, an improved standard of living and ample employment opportunities.

My mistake. The international reaction really was negative. But it didn't change the fact that the Allies (especially the British) helped the Dutch in Indonesia's war of independence.

The only Ally involved besides the Dutch were the British from what I have seen. Do you have proof for otherwise?

Now, now, let me give an analogy again.

In Code Geass, Britannia invade Japan and claimed their lands. The native Japanese were expelled to the rubble of their cities. The Japanese who want to be acknowledged by the Britannia have to pledge loyalty to the invaders who trampled their country. Even then, they're still a second class citizen. Finally, they can't take it anymore, and some of them revolted, like Kallen and Ohgi or the remnants of the Japanese Army.

I disagree with the rockets because it is not right to target civilian (and just like Lelouch said, petty terrorism won't change anything). However, you can't really blame them either when their lands was taken and they have blockade around them.

Again, your analogy fails because it assumes upon the idea that the Palestinians are 1) native to the land, 2) have been there before the Jews ever were there, and 3) you are equating Israel to imperialism. All three of these are wholly false.

If you really disagree with these terrorism, then why do you condone the ideals of these terrorists? Why do you not condemn their actions and do something about it when people are losing their lives?

I can blame them and I do blame them. The hatred is generational. Therefore, it has to be taught. Parents and teachers can choose to teach their children not to hate and blame the Jews and Israel for all of their live's woes. They do not do that. Textbooks in Area A and across the Middle East teach hatred of the Jews and Israel. Maps in classrooms do not have Israel on the map. Children are taught to say that they will become martyrs for the cause of killing Jews and destroying Israel. Every year the Palestinians and Arab world hold Nakba Day, which is in remembrance of Israel becoming a nation and them supposedly losing the land. Almost every year it ends in bloody riots or stone-throwing. This year was no different. My point is that these people have a choice. They are choosing the path of hatred. They are making the wrong choice.

And let me say this, "1,477 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis and 129 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians since September 29, 2000."

What you are not saying here is that almost all of these children were not killed by Israelis. Rather, they were killed because they were transporting munitions or sleeping in bunkers full of munitions. Others have been killed accidentally in the line of fire because terrorists used them as human shields. There also has been a few cases were Israeli missiles missed their target and hit the wrong building among a whole city of buildings. In each one of these cases, Israel has reformed their training for their soldiers and worked to improve the technology for subduing terrorists without the loss of life.

One the other hand, all 129 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinian terrorists, who deliberately blew up school buses, restaurants, shopping malls, and public places. These children were not carrying weapons. They were not sleeping on munitions, and Israeli soldiers did not use them as human shields. The comparison you are making is missing many of the facts. Ergo, it is not a true and just comparison.

Sederot is for Israelis to begin with... And I never heard of the restaurant and the pool. Care to share your sources?

All of Israel is for Israelis. I do not know know what you are talking about otherwise.

Here is one.

Heck, even Wikipedia has an article.

There are plenty more places on the internet. Just Google "olympic pool Gaza."

And don't tell me that they're not having a hard life while a ship for aid is heading for them (basically, it's implying that the people who sent their aid is stupid). Likewise, they wouldn't try the illegal way if the legal way can make it easily. That is, assuming Israel is a legal country of course.

Again, the way that these flotillas behave is for publicity. Almost all of them to date have made press releases to make it known what they are doing, which has provoked the Israeli government to action.

The way to make supplies go into Gaza is simple. Hand it over to the Egyptian or Israeli authorities or land in Egypt with your supplies and make the land crossing yourself in Gaza. Remember. Egypt opened the land border with Gaza for crossing. So, if these flotillas really were concerned about the "humanitary crisis in Gaza," they would do that. Instead, they choose to violate a legal blockage on Gaza, which indicates that their motives lie somewhere in trying to violate Israel's sovereignty as a nation.

Israel is a legal country, and is recognized as one by nations worldwide. Even if other countries did not recognize them, identity is defined from within not without.

Why? I'm just stressing my point that I'm not like some people who generalize an entire population just because a fraction of them is a villain.

Sarcasm doily noted.

Seriously? You're telling me to just accept it? Then what's the point of voting?

Before I continue, it turns out that the country using the veto most often is Russia (124), while the US (82) is in the second place. My mistake on this one.

Now, let's look at the things that get vetoed.

July 19, 2012: China and Russia vetoed a resolution threatening Chapter 7 sanctions against Syria. -Basically, they're supporting a tyrant regime

February 18, 2011: The United States vetoed a draft resolution condemning Israeli settlements in the West Bank. -I don't have to explain about this one

December 23, 1989: France, the United Kingdom and the United States vetoed a draft resolution condemning the United States invasion of Panama. -Just like what it says, the US invaded Panama.

Obviously, the veto is only there to protect their self-interest. But at least China and Russia doesn't spreading war around the world in the name of democracy. Our honored model for democracy, the US, did however.

Why do you think it was called 'veto'? Because it's the opposite of 'vote'! (don't really know though, just my guess )

The role of the veto was originally to prevent actions from occurring that could be potentially harmful to a group as a whole, including those who would disagree with the veto. The veto is a part of the United States Constitution as part of the checks-and-balances system. The result has often been that it leads to better and tighter laws that are better written. While sometimes the veto is politically motivated, it can be a powerful tool to prevent corruption in the right hands, which is its original intention.

As for your examples, I am not going to pick them apart because this discussion is getting way too lengthy.

Which sources are you using then? The Zionist-funded one?

Thank you for showing me your contempt for Israel once again by basically calling it the "Zionist entity." My sources include classes, seminars, the internet, etc. I tend not to rely on news sources because they tend to be more slanted than helpful.

Post by **Silimir** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:49 pm

Spoiler! :

ainsoph9 · Post by **ainsoph9** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:43 pm

@Silimir:

Spoiler! :

Silimir wrote:What's wrong with your country, A! Indeed this war was started many many years ago, but how in god's name can USA take part of these conflicts that are not of their problem! Also, saying that musulman have no right to live because of their religion is has saying that black people have less right that white people!

The problem that the United States is facing now is one of ideals. Just like how the Cold War was ultimately about ideals, this "war on terror" is no different. The only difference is that this war does not involve warring nations and marked and defined land boundaries.

I am not saying that Muslims have no right to live. I am saying that there is a problem with their ideology. I make a very BIG difference between the ideals and the people who hold the ideals. More often than not when terrorism is involved, people become victims and prisoners of the very ideals that they uphold. I do not take any joy or pleasure in seeing people die. Rather, I would propose for a way for them to be freed from the ideals that cause them to take up arms in the first place.

Also, your analogy on whites and blacks makes no sense at all.

But yeah, i wanted to know: How do you feel with the idea of not being in the country that has the best future? Every one knows that China will become the first major economy of this world. And with your actual economic crisis, it's not really helping... :\

Just to be cute, here is a relevant quote from Men in Black.

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

-Kay

In other words, who knows what the future has in hold for any single nation?

Also, in 50 years, when USA will have no more gas, do you think they will invade canada and brazil for their water resources (ours are GIGANTIC ). And if it brings a war where USA becomes the evil and the others, the good protector of liberty? Indeed, you had a great status after WW2, but can it stay?

Russia, Nort Korea, Iran... in 50 years, will it add up Canada, Brazil and China? (ok lets be clear, i'll never accept being the ally of Iran).

Depending on who you talk to, 50 years is about the time that it will take for the world oil supplies to dry up. So, will it matter then when nobody has any oil?

As for water, the United States has plenty of that.

You are asking a lot of "what if" questions that really have no bearing on reality. I think this is another relevant quote from The Time Machine (2002).

You're a man haunted by those two most terrible words: What if?

-Über-Morlock

One last thing: Have you heard about the gigantic dept that you country has at china?

As of July 2012, $5.3 trillion or approximately 48% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were China and Japan at just over $1.16 trillion each.

I wonder how your futures presidents will deal with the U.S Dept... it's getting more and more hard to control it.... will it blow up? Will you be same with the arrival of a new era? New technology?

Asking me if I know about the national debt is like asking me not to look at the elephant in the room. In other words, it is an obvious glaring problem. The only thing is that China, Japan, Saudia Arabia, etc. calling in said debt would only harm them in the short and long runs. The United States economy has a much larger impact on the economy of the world than many would like to admit. Even if the United States economy implodes, which is a very real possibility now, there is always something beyond the immediate problem. One of the things about this nation is that we have persevered through thin and thick. I see this as no different.

ばか！バカ！　馬鹿ー月！

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