Index ending?

[Dawn]

Talent has to come from somewhere. If DNA has nothing to do with it, then you're suggesting it's purely nurture. In which case everybody should be able to attain Level 5. (I'm not putting words in your mouth; if it isn't DNA then it has to be how the child is raised. You even mention this by referencing Misaka's memories/experiences.)

[Chaos2Frozen]

Talent has to come from somewhere. If DNA has nothing to do with it, then you're suggesting it's purely nurture. In which case everybody should be able to attain Level 5. (I'm not putting words in your mouth; if it isn't DNA then it has to be how the child is raised. You even mention this by referencing Misaka's memories/experiences.)

Everybody can be a Level 5 yes, isn't that what the students were told?

HOWEVER, the catch is that not everybody grow at the same rate.Those that become Level 5s right now are simply much faster than the rest of the pack, for everybody else it might take them decades or even well beyond their human life span to achieve it.

That is whole point of the perimeter list- It's not to say these people can't be Level 5s, it's to say that they cost way too much time, money and effort to train them to be Level 5s, so we'll focus on students that are faster and cheaper.

[ggqt]

Ok lol. Chaos2Frozen I'll brake this down for you. I'm a bioengineering major, and I minor in psychology. I'm pretty good at dealing with the mind.

What is talent? What do you need to have talent? How do you get it? Is it preset from birth?

Talent is the ability to do something better then the norm.

In order to have talent you need to be able to think fast enough to compute what ever task you're doing.

There is only one way to gain "talent" and that is to think both subconsciously and consciously. But this has a limit. Why? Because you're brain only has a set number of neural connections, which is a result of your DNA. Savantism is a perfect example of this, they have a talent in one specific field. Why? Because they have a large amount of neural connections in that specific part of their brain, but lack them else where.

The Planum temporale is where your brain computes musical data like rhythm and pitch, so if your brain has a lot of neurons there you have a "talent" for music. I may not be able to tell you at birth who will be a musical genius, but I can tell you why it happened. This is why I said you where dumb for bring up a nurture vs. nature argument.
Nurture is what builds on your base line personality, and your personality is when lets you utilize your nature.

Now I could get a lot more technical with this, and go more in depth but judging from this

1) I did not put a single thing in your mouth (lol), I just used more words for what you implied. "only people with the brains that can process that data will get that power". "Brain that can process the data" is the same thing as "how someone thinks", and I never said you said "as simple as". All of what I said proved you wrong. You asked me to prove you wrong, not give you the right answer.

How on Earth did you interpret "Brain that can process" as the same thing as "how someone thinks"? One of them is the ability to compute data while the other is their Emotional or decision making process.

you clearly could not keep up. You don't even has a grasp on basic vocabulary, thinking is your mental process.

Now I know trying to apply actual science to anime is one of the dumbest things you can do, but for the sake of this argument I'll do it. As of right now in the normal world we have pretty much mapped the human genome, so I can only assume academy city has fully mapped it out. If they have done this manipulating what proteins express themselves would be easy, so making "genius" in any field is simple. Thus proving that awakening is not about processing "angel data", because if it was they would just copy the know people who could awaken. Even if it was both nurture and nature they could copy it. They would just have to raise the clone the same way they raised the original.

Oh here, while I'm at it I'll explain what a "personality" / "soul" is. It's pretty simple actually, I'm sure you know how everyone has a different thumb print, well everyone also has a different map of neurons in their brain. Thoughts are just electrical pulses in your brain, and by following those unique neural paths you get a personality. Hence why twins have different ones.

[Chaos2Frozen]

ggqt, I get it that you're a smart-ass and I guess you've dazzled me with your superior education and language skills, I'm completely defeated by your silver tongue.

At the same time I blame myself for have the topic dragged further and further form you original question- Which is what is the Perimeter List.

I gave you the explanation- It is a list that prioritized on how much resource it would require to get them to Level up. I want to clarify one thing using my horrible vocabulary skills- This resource is not just money. It's not just clicking a button to level up a character. You can think of it as like a school giving extra care and attention on a specific student.

As for your question about the clones, my horrible vocabulary limits me in finding the appropriate word so 'talent' would have to do. The scientists don't just copy how Mikoto grew up was because they don't know all the details, and when I say ALL the Details, I mean down to the very last scratch. As far-fetched as it sounds, we don't know how sensitive a person's experience would affect their Personal Reality, sometimes maybe all it takes is a scratch. At the same time, another reason is possibly because they still want to train them to be soldiers.

But in the end I suppose even they probably don't know why it doesn't work.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Now I know trying to apply actual science to anime is one of the dumbest things you can do, but for the sake of this argument I'll do it. As of right now in the normal world we have pretty much mapped the human genome, so I can only assume academy city has fully mapped it out. If they have done this manipulating what proteins express themselves would be easy, so making "genius" in any field is simple. Thus proving that awakening is not about processing "angel data", because if it was they would just copy the know people who could awaken. Even if it was both nurture and nature they could copy it. They would just have to raise the clone the same way they raised the original.

Your evidence is base on the assumption that they would want an Army of Awakened Espers but because there isn't any it would mean they can't, but if you've been keeping up with the story, Academy City never had any real plans to create an Esper Army. Any Esper technology is used to create machines that they can control easier. Even if they have the Angel Data, they would rather create their own Angel.

[ggqt]

What are you talking about? My original question was when this dragged out story is going to end.

btw, no. Not everyone can become level 5, that's been clear for a long time. Both the Level system and Perimeter List prove that.

Ummmm.... I presented no evidence, nor did I say they wanted to create an army of awakened espers, I only said they could do it. My point is only further proven by the fact that Alistor saved what's his face's brain in a jar, and that he said he would save Toma's brain if he needed to.

P.S. nice double post

[Chaos2Frozen]

This is my last post on this matter, considering you already have the answer to your question I see no reason to continue this.

What are you talking about? My original question was when this dragged out story is going to end.

Lol no, I mean the original question that started this talk about clones and talent.

btw, no. Not everyone can become level, that's been clear for a long time. Both the Level system and Perimeter List prove that.

To be exact- The Perimeter List hinders people from progressing because... Lets put it this way, take the Esper Levels as Education Levels- it's VERY HARD for a student on their own to achieve the results that a University trained student can produce, whether it's a good equipment, a good lecturer, or even the money to pay for all that.

So it seems to be a case of technically yes, but practically no.

Ummmm.... I presented no evidence, nor did I say they wanted to create an army of awakened espers, I only said they could do it. My point is only further proven by the fact that Alistor saved what's his face's brain in a jar, and that he said he would save Toma's brain if he needed to.

Sigh, nevermind, forget I said anything.

P.S. nice double post

Thank you, it's my talent.

[d34thw1ng]

hmmm i always thought that talent is something you are born with, and skill is something you build, increase , grew

and to the main topic, i think it is not ending at least on bt thread for index there is no reference that gives that idea (and not in others sites i check on too..), but the author should get rid of so many characters....

[Mystes]

Guys, continue your discussion while staying respectful. I have no idea of what are you guys are talking about (stopped reading Index at the end of the 1st series and forgot many things), so I won't intervene. Though I'll delete some posts if I judge them irrespectful.

/runs away.

[ggqt]

Yeah bro, this discussion died days ago.

But you should read it, it's kind of an interesting argument, that has almost nothing to do with the series lol.

[YoakeNoHikari]

It was entertaining.

[Mystes]

Yeah bro, this discussion died days ago.

But you should read it, it's kind of an interesting argument, that has almost nothing to do with the series lol.

It was entertaining.

Yeah. Though I'm lost with all those Level Up and other things.

[ggqt]

Yeah don't worry about that. There's no real answer even if you have read the books.

[Shadowhearts]

MISAKA CLONES POTENTIAL
Overall with regards to Misaka's clones. I think I have several ideas on how or why they just don't have the same specs as the original.

First off, Misaka Mikoto is the culmination of years from childhood under the Development Program. There seem to be 2 big factors that define how powerful an Esper is.
Calculation ability and Personal Reality. It literally takes 10,001 Misaka clones connected to a network to temporarily allow them to match the calculation ability of Accelerator for a short period of time. The being said, I'm sure in order to have that same sort of calculation ability for Misaka Mikoto, it probably takes a large amount of resources that something only a large amount of Clones connected to the MISAKA Network to produce something of the same ability as even Misaka Mikoto.

The other factor is definitely personal reality, which seems to affect ones AIM Dispersion field. That being said, this seems to be a direct result of years of stimulation to the brain, and for Espers like Misaka Mikoto, who weren't born as level 5s (she was born with the potential according to the Parameter Chart of course). The more an stimuli an esper develops the closer they get to reaching their potential. AT the very least, it took many years for Misaka Mikoto to hit level 5. That's years of experience. For Misaka Imouto's, to hit level 3 after mass manufacturing them is a testament to Academy City's technology (with them being supplemented by the MISAKA Network and all). Misaka WORST is even more of a testament to Academy City's technology, as they developed an even more powerful Misaka with higher specs.

Overall though, I think the "Potential" of the Misaka clones really has to do with the specs they were designed with in mind. Outside of "Fixing" the original Sisters specs to live longer, their Original specs were that they were meant to be developed to be as cost effective as possible to live an short lifespan for their goal (to be slaughtered by Accelerator). Misaka WORST works proves that they can produce a clone of even higher overall specs (basically not to be fodder to be killed by Accelerator, rather to be stable and powerful enough to threaten Accelerator). Still, Misaka WORST produced under these conditions doesn't seem to have the same potential as the original Misaka. Overall the only explanation as to why these clones can't reach the original seems to be the "Personal Reality" of the original has much more depth. All of her experiences as a human being raised as such contributes to this. (Since this world and the author really seem to really have some sound scientific theory as the basis for some of his Science creations,) I'll cite that, in Child Psychology, its easily shown in the interaction between a child in a loving, caring environment, promote brain chemicals, and overall in the end will have positive effect on the development of that child's brain. Using that as somewhat of a basis the fundamental brain development between Misaka Mikoto and all the clones are fundamentally different. This is why Academy City tends to prefer to raise Espers, rather than manufacture them.
I somehow get the feeling that the only real exception to this is the DNA Map of Misaka Mikoto and her particular power as an Electric User, allowed for the potential of an Electric-Based MISAKA Network, which somehow allows the clones to compensate for the lack of a strong and firm "Personal Reality". As to why they don't copy Accelerator (who can cause many phenomena that even Misaka can do, by sheer calculation) or Kakine Teitoku, is that their powers are too unique and require too much calculation power on top of personal reality that clones would not be able to reproduce the same results. That and the fact that the MISAKA Network poses no "load" to the powers of a natural Electro-User like Misaka Mikoto, simply means that rather than force a network on the clones, the network is produced by all the clones having a Uniform Electro-Magnetic based AIM Dispersion fields. The Network simply compliments them, rather than strains them at the cost of no power or effort. There's all of this and one more thing, with respect to efficiency. They basically militarized the RAILGUN in New Testament, in the form of a Powered-Suit. As such it drastically takes away the need to create clones

ON ANOTHER NOTE: on the topic of an inconsistency in Accelerator/

Spoiler! :

On a random off topic, I want to definitely discuss the one scene of a certain inconsistency between Accelerator being able to use his powers without his node at the end of the last Volume of To Aru Majutsu no Index and New Testament, where we see him from threatening the officials of the Darkness of Academy City to again relying on his node. The Question definitely plagued me immediately at the start, but I've come up with 2 possible theories really.

1) Accelerator was able to finally finish his new node. I can't remember him ever doing so in WW3, but if he managed to, it would definitely explain why the higher-ups have stopped harrassing him.

2) This pertains more to the actual scene of Accelerator making the threats on the site of WW3 at the end of the war . It seems its been pointed out before that Accelerator's wings compensate for his calculation. In fact, I believe its been established that the function of Angel's Wings in To Aru Majutsu No Index, seems to really be to aid in calculation in manipulation of Vectors around them. The basis of Angels in this world comes from them manipulating vectors of elements in such a way to turn those elements into a corporeal form that they can use when manifested in the real world. It's why no angel without a host would survive being touched by Imagine Breaker.
Anyway, getting back on track, the only way to explain why Accelerator was able to make threats at the cite of WW3 even with his node off, and in the next volume / arc have to rely on his node again, is to really use Angel Wings as an explanation.

[Cosmic Eagle]

The Index series has been going on for a good while now, and we have yet to get any real answers about the major plot conflicts. Sure we get a little bits here and there, but nothing of any real substance. Hell we don't even have an answer to the first question of the series, what "imagine breaker" is.

Anyway, I digress. Just wondering if anyone has heard anything about the series coming to an end. Maybe off the authors twitter or face book, I have no idea because I can't read Japanese.

No and far from it.

In fact the story is just reaching a climax of sorts. The entire goal now really is to cross into the Horusian era.

Also, your first part, given the kind of writer Kamachi is, pretty much as good as answers your question.