Japan discrimination?

[SkyFlames07]

I have been reading some huge articles about the topic and made me wonder if this all true or just isolated cases.

Which I gotten read is that foreign gets a really hard time due to the japanese's discrimination and cold attitude to them. Things like separating them at restaurants from the natives, being threated as if they could not speak the language or basicly, as idiots.

I'm nowhere near to Japan, so I don't really know how are the things over there.

The curiosity is killing me so I guess there is no better place to ask this than here.

[Doraneko]

I have been reading some huge articles about the topic and made me wonder if this all true or just isolated cases.

Which I gotten read is that foreign gets a really hard time due to the japanese's discrimination and cold attitude to them. Things like separating them at restaurants from the natives, being threated as if they could not speak the language or basicly, as idiots.

I'm nowhere near to Japan, so I don't really know how are the things over there.

The curiosity is killing me so I guess there is no better place to ask this than here.

For a brief period, I have worked in a company in Tokyo, with no one except me being a foreigner. I am certainly not an expert on this issue but here are some of my views.

I think in general the Japanese attitude towards foreigners is more of ignorance, fear and deliberate aversion of possible troubles, instead of outright hostile discrimination.

Despite of the compulsory English education for 6+ years, many of them are pretty bad at oral English. That is why they don't feel comfortable with the accompany of foreigners and some would even try their best to avoid such a scenario all together.

I haven't personally seen shops with a sign of "no foreigners", but I did have heard about them. AFAIK they are mostly the traditional ryokan (hotels).

If you have watched Hanasaku Iroha, you can understand that these ryokan attach a great degree of pride and sense of responsibility to the service they offer. They have to ensure that every single guest would receive the highest level of service possible. But many ryokan in the rural areas don't even have any English-speaking staff. To avoid leaving the foreign guests with a bad impression and thus tainting their names, it is not too far-fetched to say some would actively decline booking requests made by foreigners.

Yes. Technically this is discrimination, but it is also within the business practice of ryokans, which tend to decline booking requests from not only foreigners but also local Japanese, if they feel that they cannot offer the top level of service possible (for reasons such as shortage of staff)

For the more extreme ones, those are the nationalist right-wingers, prevalent among the younger internet-savvy generation. They usually have limited success in study/career. With poor international perspective and exposure (due to the unsatisfactory level of English and history education in Japan), they tend to attribute their difficulties as the fault of the Chinese and Koreans (for marginalizing Japan in the international market and flooding the local Japan market with their products, thus crushing their employment/promotion prospects) .

These young people consider Japan to have the right and duty to engage actively in military affairs and thereby secure their own national interests. Currently they are not yet a major voice in the government, but their influence is growing day by day (although still at a negligible level) and are actively pushing for nationalist reforms such as kicking away the defence-only provision in the peace constitution. I am not sure what will happen twenty/thirty years down the road.

Anyway, if you are going to Japan just for sightseeing, these shouldn't concern you too much. In general, the people there are extremely friendly and helpful. I have been to Japan for multiple times and I have never been disappointed.

[Kinny Riddle]

If you follow Sankaku Complex a lot, you should be able to pick up on some of the hilariously ignorant xenophobic statements to ever come out of 2ch. In fact, I would say that "Korean bashing" ranks as one of 2ch's favourite past-time.

That said, like 4chan, 2ch users general hide behind anonymity (the concept of 4chan itself is inspired by 2ch, IIRC), and that usually means people bark more than they bite, hence some of the most epic funny flame wars on the internets usually involve armchair nationalists.

In real life, the looney right-wing organizations notwithstanding, in general most ordinary Japanese people are, as doraneko said, just ignorant of the outside world than actually being racist.

[ainsoph9]

One of the problems with this cycle is that the Koreans and Chinese are already marginalized within Japanese society from what I know. I have heard that this tends to put them in the lower classes of society, which tends to promote an attitude similar to the one found in people who live in ghettos. Hence, Koreans tend to join up with the local yakuza group. I do not know anything about the Chinese though. I can imagine that things are similar for them. I have heard though that the Japanese are currently scared of the Chinese for economic and political reasons, given that China is Japan's major supplier of raw materials and resources. The analogy would be if China and/or Saudi Arabia called in the debt of the United States. You can imagine that people would be scared and nervous.

Either way, as Doraneko and Kinny have written, most of the problem is ignorance in a homogeneous society that endorses shame. So, one of the problems with a shame culture is that failure is not tolerated. Any sort of failure is tantamount to being worse than death because shame cannot be endured and rectified in their eyes. Hence why in shame cultures, it is more prevalent to see people more or less literally killing each other and themselves just to prevent any shame to come upon them or their families and friends. (This is one of the major reasons why you will see Muslims doing suicide bombings in the news.) On the other hand, there is such a thing as a guilt culture, which does not see guilt as a feeling; shame is a feeling; sorrow is a feeling but not guilt. Guilt culture is based upon whether one did something or not, not how someone feels they about something. Now, if you are guilty, you can feel shame and/or sorrow for something as a norm, but that does not mean that you become imprisoned to that guilt. Sadly, Japan has historically been a shame culture, although that is changing now. The problem with that is that shame diminishes what a person is and can become. If they are seen as worthless and feel worthless, you can imagine the results will not be good. So, getting back to my initial point, the reason why these ryokan become apparently "racist" is because they cannot allow that kind of shame to come upon them as a blemish. It is considered worse than death, which is why you will see Japanese do such extreme things to "make up" for it when it is not always necessary. Ignorance of English and the outside world does not promote this either.

[Mystes]

Here's what I think:

Japanese people have clearly some issues with the foreign culture. Though some people say that it's a myth, it is probably a generalized truth. You can't assume that vulgarized hate doesn't exist anymore, and it's a sad truth. You still see people hating Jews, or Americans bashing on Muslims.

Japan is not an exception. It probably fears other countries, especially the U.S. and China. Both can destroy Japan easily. Even though it won't probably happen, the fear stays.

What has probably happened is that Japanese people feel that their culture is in danger with everything happening in the world right now. If you say that China is still communist, I would laugh so loud that my throat will hurt. If you tell me that U.S. is one of the richest country in the world, I would do the same. Countries and mentality change, and Japanese people fear that their culture would be taken over.

[ainsoph9]

Well, here is the problem with that: it is too late. Japan, especially in the cities, has become extremely Westernized beyond recognition. However, this is partly because of the Japanese nature to selectively assimilate other cultures into their own. Unfortunately, when the Japanese started assimilating Western philosophy and culture, they kind of threw the baby out with the bath water. Basically, they adapted Western philosophy and culture at the expense of their own culture to an extend, which is provable by the amount of Japanese that are English loan words. Many of those loan words already had an existing Japanese equivalent. Also, the fact that religion in Japan is almost dead is the result of importing Western philosophical post-modern thought into Japan. This change in thought and assumptions have killed much of Japanese culture, especially in terms of the family life, which post-modern thought typically undermines. I am not saying that this is the only reason, but it is one of the major reasons. Taking this another step further, seeing that family life is practically non-existent in Japan with the father and/or mother always working, the birth rate is down. This is ironic, given that many Westerners view Japan as just another place where you can visit the red light district, although generally in cartoon form.

[Mystes]

Yep. Katakana is an example.

[ainsoph9]

Care to elaborate a bit?

[Mystes]

I meant that western culture entered in a way that Japanese people must invent katakana to differencize the 'non-jap. word' from the actual japanese words.

[SkyFlames07]

This is the article I read: http://www.debito.org/?p=5423

And this is a comment in spanish that really got my attention, traslating it to english of course:

Spoiler! :

Unlike most of the people know, Japan is a super rascist country. As they are a kind of person that have lived and developed their culture in an island, far away from the rest of the word, they got =214a hard time adaptating to another cultures
I tell you this, a mexican that have almost 16 years living and working in Japan.

NOW, the discrimination in Japan is different to which one the rest of the world imagine. Which is close to the psicologic situation of the japanase, is the term XENOPHOBY or fear to the foreigners.
Besides, the discrimination of this country developes more in a bureaucratic way. This means that mostly of the gobern issues (Además, la discriminación en este país se desarrolla mas en forma burocrática. Eso significa que la mayoría de los asuntos de gobierno (paperworkm, records ETC) are made in a way exclusive for the japanese citizens and they got no interest in fixing it. For example, the japanese names are generally formed by KANJI of Chinese origin, which makes that their names can be written from one to six characters. As a result, the simplest paperwork, you have only aproximately 15 spaces to write ALL your name in romanian letters.

I'm not willing to go to Japan any time soon, but is one of the countries that I most admire and to see this is just like a complete surprise to me.

[Doraneko]

I'm not willing to go to Japan any time soon, but is one of the countries that I most admire and to see this is just like a complete surprise to me.

Well in real world, Japan is like every other country, with its own share of problems and issues. Heaven doesn't exist, at least on earth.

Btw anime/manga is one of the worst medium to build up one's impression of Japan. Neither would I base my impression of the US on Hollywood movies alone.

If possible, try to see and experience by your own self. Hearsay is nothing and can never beat first-hand experience.

Well, here is the problem with that: it is too late. Japan, especially in the cities, has become extremely Westernized beyond recognition. However, this is partly because of the Japanese nature to selectively assimilate other cultures into their own. Unfortunately, when the Japanese started assimilating Western philosophy and culture, they kind of threw the baby out with the bath water. Basically, they adapted Western philosophy and culture at the expense of their own culture to an extend, which is provable by the amount of Japanese that are English loan words. Many of those loan words already had an existing Japanese equivalent. Also, the fact that religion in Japan is almost dead is the result of importing Western philosophical post-modern thought into Japan. This change in thought and assumptions have killed much of Japanese culture, especially in terms of the family life, which post-modern thought typically undermines. I am not saying that this is the only reason, but it is one of the major reasons. Taking this another step further, seeing that family life is practically non-existent in Japan with the father and/or mother always working, the birth rate is down. This is ironic, given that many Westerners view Japan as just another place where you can visit the red light district, although generally in cartoon form.

I am not too sure if these are the major reasons (although they may still have contributory effects). Issues you named, such as Westernisation, declining influence of local religion/culture, and weakening family bonds due to working parents, are quite prevalent in Asian cities like Hong Kong too.

As for loan words, there is also a substantial degree of French influence in English. Even the Chinese language reverse-imported quite a number of kanji phrases from Japan (textbook eg:　2 out of the 3 phrases in the full name of PRC, namely 人民, and 共和国 are Japanese-originated kanji phrases). Neither do I see any problem in that.

I just feel that fundamentally the problem lies in education. The lousy English/history education, and the unforgiving attitude towards lesser-achievers inside schools are certainly nothing to write home about. The environment outside schools doesn't help either. Good education can also integrate minorities into the society and make the majority be more open towards them: both of which failed miserably in Japan.

[ainsoph9]

I am not saying that these are the main reasons. I do not assume to know the whole picture. Rather, I am sayings these are contributors. However, many problems exist because of where one's assumptions begin; one's conclusions will end there as well as extension of the initial assumptions. These things for worldviews, which culture is a part of on a larger scale. My point is not so much that the symptoms that I described are the problems; rather, the assumptions that form them are the problem. This would explain why some of the same things appear in other Asian countries and cities. If the assumptions predicated upon are the same or similar to an extent, then it is likely that the problems will be shared in other environments.

I am not saying that loan words are a problem themselves. Rather, I am using it as an example to show that American culture has had a profound impact on Japanese life. I heard from my Japanese professor that after WWII, a substantial percentage of Japanese words were replaced with loan words. If I remember correctly, the percentage was somewhere between 25-50%. That is significant. Many of the originals have more or less been lost from the standard Japanese vocabulary, which could be part of the reason why students typically struggle with Japanese literature. I do not see a problem with importing words and the like, but if it is done at the expense of one's own culture, that is a major problem, even if it in the name of that culture and done in a way very much in the character of that culture. This is what is being done in Japan to an extent.

I agree that the Japanese education system suffers significantly from some major problems. I have heard from multiple people that WWII is not taught correctly for example in some Japanese textbooks. Likewise, some of the textbooks rewrite Japanese history. I do not know the truth of this because I have heard otherwise from multiple sources as well. I know of some efforts to correct this problem such as the JET program. However, education cannot always correct one's assumptions, which are shown in some of the examples you gave, such as the unforgiving nature of schools and society in general. That is, if education just focuses on facts alone without the corresponding moral values, the assumptions will either not change or be worse off. Yet, if both of these change, then yes, a chance exists for things to change for the better.

[Doraneko]

This would explain why some of the same things appear in other Asian countries and cities. If the assumptions predicated upon are the same or similar to an extent, then it is likely that the problems will be shared in other environments.

I can't speak for other Asian cities, but for Hong Kong, money is always ranked first while shame is almost the last thing to be considered: a complete opposite to Japan.

Let's use the convenient hotel example again to illustrate my point. Unlike the Japanese ryokans, as long as you show enough cash to the desk in an HK hotel, even if you were a terrorist planning to bomb HK or a tentacle monster from the M31 galaxy planning to wipe HK off the map, they would still treat you like the President. But if you say you lost your wallet on your way and try to ask the staff to help picking it up, they will simply shovel you out of back exit and then lock the door. In such a case being a local or not matters nothing at all. Discrimination by consumption power instead of race: this is real capitalism to the point of disgusting. Shame? It died with Confucius 2500 years ago.

That is why I think for the issues you named, regardless of the correlation, the causation effect towards Japan's current state of discrimination is not that significant. After all a place that faces basically the same issues (HK) ends up with an almost opposite cultural attitude.

I am not saying that loan words are a problem themselves. Rather, I am using it as an example to show that American culture has had a profound impact on Japanese life. I heard from my Japanese professor that after WWII, a substantial percentage of Japanese words were replaced with loan words. If I remember correctly, the percentage was somewhere between 25-50%. That is significant. Many of the originals have more or less been lost from the standard Japanese vocabulary, which could be part of the reason why students typically struggle with Japanese literature. I do not see a problem with importing words and the like, but if it is done at the expense of one's own culture, that is a major problem, even if it in the name of that culture and done in a way very much in the character of that culture. This is what is being done in Japan to an extent.

I certainly agree with you on the fact that the Japanese language/culture is to a large extent butchered by American influence. However I still fail to see the relation between traditional cultural preservation and their current attitude towards foreigners. If anything, compared with the current Japan, the pre-WW2 Japan is far more discriminatory to non-Japanese (except Europeans since they considered themselves Europeans). Feel free to check how Japanese literally "cleaned up" the Chinese/Korean population in Tokyo in the 1920s. The shame culture discussed earlier by you, which is IMO highly relevant to the current state in Japan, is certainly not something brought over from the US.

I agree that the Japanese education system suffers significantly from some major problems. I have heard from multiple people that WWII is not taught correctly for example in some Japanese textbooks. Likewise, some of the textbooks rewrite Japanese history. I do not know the truth of this because I have heard otherwise from multiple sources as well. I know of some efforts to correct this problem such as the JET program. However, education cannot always correct one's assumptions, which are shown in some of the examples you gave, such as the unforgiving nature of schools and society in general. That is, if education just focuses on facts alone without the corresponding moral values, the assumptions will either not change or be worse off. Yet, if both of these change, then yes, a chance exists for things to change for the better.

The reason I see education as the main reason of the problem is because it is one of the most significant factor that shapes the world view and cultural value of every individual.

We do not judge the people we know by hearsay or stereotypes because we have first-hand, personal experience with them. But we tend to do so for people from a country at the opposite side of the globe, due to the lack of real connections and inevitably we can only rely on information available. If the information we rely on is twisted deliberately (media/govt agenda) or undeliberately (info loss), it will ultimately skew our world view and give rise to baseless stereotypes and biases.

Good education can strengthen not only the students' hard knowledge, or "information" on global affairs, but also their soft skills in acquiring and analysing information. The former changes day-by-day, so as the focus of education the latter is even more important.

Unfortunately it seems like the indoctrination-based education system failed to nurture enough talents with good perceptive of world affairs and capability to critical thinking. As a result, the general Japanese public tend to swallow what the media feeds to them. Foreigners have a high crime rate? (one of the common reasons quoted for their discomfort towards foreigners) They don't even bother to check the national crime stats and take a quick look behind the veil. They may be living in their own myths, but it is at the expense of the reputation of their country.

Japan’s High Foreign Crime Rate Explained
http://jasonirwin.ca/2008/02/11/japans- ... explained/

The poor English education doesn't help either, as I am a firm believer that being fluent in at least one second language (not necessarily English) can make one less prone to deliberate information skewing by the government/corporations/media. As an example, you may check the controversial articles in relation to global affairs/history in Wikipedia. Specifically for WW2 stuff in East Asia, the Chinese, English and Japanese versions tend to contain radically different details. Even in a lawsuit, if you consistently hear only the pleadings of one party, you will ultimately become biased.

That is why I think to solve the current problems, there has to be some ultimate reforms to the education system.

[Mystes]

In fact, I think 'xenophobia' could be a term that suits to Japanese people. Though I'm not sure that's the case to everyone.

IN fact, countries like Japan is kiinda regarded as a hostile land for strangers because the immigration is very low. Look at China. If you say that you're scared of Chinese people, then you have a problem, then you have a problem if you live in Vancouver, Canada. I mean,it's 30% of the population there.

Japan's immigration is probably low in the 'Western countries'. The immigrants who go to Japan who are from the west (Europe and America) are also in a small number. 'Open countries' to immigration and emigration have less problems with foreigners.

Add to that the fact WWII still leaves some scars, to every other countries. In America, Japanese people were the one who were trying to make war to them, and the atomic bombs were needed. In Japan, the fact that Japan was bombed and that innocents were killed also left some scars. And no need to comment on China; Does Nanjing rings a bell?

[ainsoph9]

This would explain why some of the same things appear in other Asian countries and cities. If the assumptions predicated upon are the same or similar to an extent, then it is likely that the problems will be shared in other environments.

I can't speak for other Asian cities, but for Hong Kong, money is always ranked first while shame is almost the last thing to be considered: a complete opposite to Japan.

Let's use the convenient hotel example again to illustrate my point. Unlike the Japanese ryokans, as long as you show enough cash to the desk in an HK hotel, even if you were a terrorist planning to bomb HK or a tentacle monster from the M31 galaxy planning to wipe HK off the map, they would still treat you like the President. But if you say you lost your wallet on your way and try to ask the staff to help picking it up, they will simply shovel you out of back exit and then lock the door. In such a case being a local or not matters nothing at all. Discrimination by consumption power instead of race: this is real capitalism to the point of disgusting. Shame? It died with Confucius 2500 years ago.

That is why I think for the issues you named, regardless of the correlation, the causation effect towards Japan's current state of discrimination is not that significant. After all a place that faces basically the same issues (HK) ends up with an almost opposite cultural attitude.

I am not saying that loan words are a problem themselves. Rather, I am using it as an example to show that American culture has had a profound impact on Japanese life. I heard from my Japanese professor that after WWII, a substantial percentage of Japanese words were replaced with loan words. If I remember correctly, the percentage was somewhere between 25-50%. That is significant. Many of the originals have more or less been lost from the standard Japanese vocabulary, which could be part of the reason why students typically struggle with Japanese literature. I do not see a problem with importing words and the like, but if it is done at the expense of one's own culture, that is a major problem, even if it in the name of that culture and done in a way very much in the character of that culture. This is what is being done in Japan to an extent.

I certainly agree with you on the fact that the Japanese language/culture is to a large extent butchered by American influence. However I still fail to see the relation between traditional cultural preservation and their current attitude towards foreigners. If anything, compared with the current Japan, the pre-WW2 Japan is far more discriminatory to non-Japanese (except Europeans since they considered themselves Europeans). Feel free to check how Japanese literally "cleaned up" the Chinese/Korean population in Tokyo in the 1920s. The shame culture discussed earlier by you, which is IMO highly relevant to the current state in Japan, is certainly not something brought over from the US.

I agree that the Japanese education system suffers significantly from some major problems. I have heard from multiple people that WWII is not taught correctly for example in some Japanese textbooks. Likewise, some of the textbooks rewrite Japanese history. I do not know the truth of this because I have heard otherwise from multiple sources as well. I know of some efforts to correct this problem such as the JET program. However, education cannot always correct one's assumptions, which are shown in some of the examples you gave, such as the unforgiving nature of schools and society in general. That is, if education just focuses on facts alone without the corresponding moral values, the assumptions will either not change or be worse off. Yet, if both of these change, then yes, a chance exists for things to change for the better.

The reason I see education as the main reason of the problem is because it is one of the most significant factor that shapes the world view and cultural value of every individual.

We do not judge the people we know by hearsay or stereotypes because we have first-hand, personal experience with them. But we tend to do so for people from a country at the opposite side of the globe, due to the lack of real connections and inevitably we can only rely on information available. If the information we rely on is twisted deliberately (media/govt agenda) or undeliberately (info loss), it will ultimately skew our world view and give rise to baseless stereotypes and biases.

Good education can strengthen not only the students' hard knowledge, or "information" on global affairs, but also their soft skills in acquiring and analysing information. The former changes day-by-day, so as the focus of education the latter is even more important.

Unfortunately it seems like the indoctrination-based education system failed to nurture enough talents with good perceptive of world affairs and capability to critical thinking. As a result, the general Japanese public tend to swallow what the media feeds to them. Foreigners have a high crime rate? (one of the common reasons quoted for their discomfort towards foreigners) They don't even bother to check the national crime stats and take a quick look behind the veil. They may be living in their own myths, but it is at the expense of the reputation of their country.

Japan’s High Foreign Crime Rate Explained
http://jasonirwin.ca/2008/02/11/japans- ... explained/

The poor English education doesn't help either, as I am a firm believer that being fluent in at least one second language (not necessarily English) can make one less prone to deliberate information skewing by the government/corporations/media. As an example, you may check the controversial articles in relation to global affairs/history in Wikipedia. Specifically for WW2 stuff in East Asia, the Chinese, English and Japanese versions tend to contain radically different details. Even in a lawsuit, if you consistently hear only the pleadings of one party, you will ultimately become biased.

That is why I think to solve the current problems, there has to be some ultimate reforms to the education system.

When I speak of shame, I am speaking about Japan strictly. I do not know so much about other Asian countries. What I do know is that, as pointed out before, China is a capitalist country as described.

I get the feeling that we are not quite understanding one another here...

Traditional cultural preservation and Japan's current attitude towards foreigners has a high correlation, especially if the foreigners represent some unknown element of change to a culture that does not want change. The current Japan is split between those who want to revert to "older" Japanese ideals and those who want to progress into "newer" Western ideals. So, it is not like Japan is uniform in this manner. Also, shame is more or less native to Japan culturally speaking.

I agree with most of what you say concerning education. However, I think that you are confusing education with the media and the political system. While education is influenced and/or run by the governmental system, that does not necessitate that the educational system brainwashes people. The problem you are describing concerning Japanese people believing everything they hear I would credit more to the fact that Japan is a culture of uniformity. So, if one develops an opinion not supported by the majority, who hold the uniform mindset, then one is castigated in society. Hence, it is better from their viewpoint to remain ignorant and follow the rest of the lemmings off a cliff so to speak.

kira, I am afraid that I am not following you with respect to flow of what doraneko was saying...