My theory about the rise of Sasaki

[Kaisos Erranon]

All of that assumes, of course, that she's really talking about snow in her story.

... What else could she be talking about? "Yuki" literally means (or can mean) "snow".

Besides, there's a nice picture to go with the story as well.

[HAL9000]

You're almost there. Keep going.

(Hint: Pinnochio wanted to be a real boy.)

[quigonkenny]

Well, my interpretation of Haruhi's powers is that she has the ability to "retcon" reality. That is, she doesn't affect the timeline and bring about a logic-loop, she wishes something to be in the present, and the past shifts to implement it. Hence why she causes breaks in the timeline, a la the "3/4 years ago" incident. So whether Sasaki existed or not before Haruhi's actions, or if she was the same person, becomes a fairly superfluous point. (Albeit one that is fun to ponder.)

On the first part, my thoughts exactly. While I don't know if I'd use the term "retcon", it does fit. As for the superfluity of the nature of Sasaki's origin, it may be superfluous in regards to the effect on future events (however she got here, she's here), but it's certainly not superfluous in regards to the story. Assuming Sasaki is not just "another Haruhi," what she really is, and Haruhi's involvement in that is fairly central to the mythos of the series. If it's glossed over, you're going to have some pissed fans, myself being one.

Haruhi's "retcons" being the direct cause of the timeline breaks (in particular the one the time travelers can't get past) is not something I'd thought of, and brings up an interesting thought. Should my above theory be true, it would be the largest single effect that Haruhi has had on the past timeline, and whether Sasaki's existence, or the nature thereof, was created by Haruhi, four years back could be a possible start to that. Wouldn't it be interesting if her creation of Sasaki-rival was the start to everything?

Haruhi already has romantic "rivals" in Mikuru and Yuki (to varying degrees in each story).

Yuki and Mikuru are her friends. While it's understandable in a story such as this that there may be a bit of romantic tension between a heroine's friends and her love interest, they are not, in Haruhi's subconscious mind, a credible threat (whether they really are or not). Sasaki, on the other hand, is, for the sake of the story, t3h 3v1l. She may eventually become a friend, but only after she "gets over" Kyon.

Plus, if her tendency was to create a bizarro version of herself, wouldn't Sasaki be more of a fan of love and romance? Or perhaps Haruhi's subconscious installed a fail-safe to make sure Sasaku could never really win... Certainly Sasaki's personality is in direct contract to Haruhi's in all other regards.

Haruhi is nothing if not egotistical. In her mind, Kyon is madly in love with her, so her rival should share some similarities (otherwise Kyon would never be attracted to that rival), yet be different enough so it's easy for Haruhi to dislike her.

And if Haruhi gave and stole Sasaki's powers, does that mean she has some inkling of her own extraordinary capabilities?

Since she never creates an effect that would seem odd to herself (outside of the end of Melancholy, which she thought was a dream), her conscious mind has no reason to expect anything out of the ordinary. However, her subconscious is absolutely aware of her capabilities. There's just too much intelligence behind what she's done for her not to be controlling it on some level.

If the theory's right (and honestly, I doubt we'll ever see evidence to disprove it, one way or the other), it opens up further points to ponder. Is the whole Bizarro-SOS a part of Haruhi's unwitting maniuplations? Or have they seized on this chance opportunity? If they were created/influenced by Haruhi, how much does she know about her own Brigade? Kyon may come to very much regret attempting to tell Haruhi about the Brigade members at the end of Book 1... or rather, even more than he already has.

Everything is a part of "Haruhi's unwitting manipulations".

[Quiet Lurker]

Why is it that everyone thinks Sasaki is another Haruhi (or Haruhi's counterpart)? It is quite probable that she is as much of a pawn of the opposition as Kyon is for the SOS (albeit a much more willing pawn ).

After Kuyou's group failed to "kidnap" Haruhi in "Snow Mountain Syndrome" and Fujiwara's group failed to change the past in "The Melancholy of Asahina Mikuru" and Volume 7, partly or mostly due to Kyon's involvement. It is likely that Sasaki was chosen by the United Opposition due to her former closeness to Kyon rather than anything else.

If Haruhi's powers can be transfered to Sasaki (or anyone else for that matter), Kyon's help would definitely be required due to his relation with Haruhi. And every member of the opposition has a stake in making this happen:
- Kuyou's group gets a willing subject to study.
- Fujiwara's group gains the potential and freedom to make huge changes to the time line.
- Kyoko's group gets a "god" who recognizes their (Espers) presence. As well as well... other things: (from Volume 1)

Spoiler! :

"Since you think Haruhi is God," I suggested, "Why don't you just abduct her, perform an autopsy on her and see what her brain's made of? You might even learn the secrets of the universe!"

"There do exist some extremists within the 'Organization' who believe the same way as you do."

In short, the members of the opposition after failing to accomplish their respective goals by themselves decided to pool together their resources to dupe Kyon into helping them transfer Haruhi's powers to an (evil, power-hungry, and easily manipulated) host so they can exploit the powers for their own purposes.

[Kaisos Erranon]

You're almost there. Keep going.

(Hint: Pinnochio wanted to be a real boy.)

I've... I've almost got what you're saying here...

Whenever I read her story, it makes my head hurt. It's a mindscrew and a half...

She could work for GAINAX...

Everything is a part of "Haruhi's unwitting manipulations".

Doesn't this create somewhat of a trap in thinking? Assuming that Haruhi is responsible for EVERYTHING kind of makes the intentions of the Dark Brigade moot in the end, because, with that reasoning, there's no way they could win.

(I hope you get what I'm saying here, it's not very clear, I know...)

[HAL9000]

Sniping is fun!

Well, my interpretation of Haruhi's powers is that she has the ability to "retcon" reality. That is, she doesn't affect the timeline and bring about a logic-loop, she wishes something to be in the present, and the past shifts to implement it. Hence why she causes breaks in the timeline, a la the "3/4 years ago" incident. So whether Sasaki existed or not before Haruhi's actions, or if she was the same person, becomes a fairly superfluous point. (Albeit one that is fun to ponder.)

On the first part, my thoughts exactly. While I don't know if I'd use the term "retcon", it does fit. As for the superfluity of the nature of Sasaki's origin, it may be superfluous in regards to the effect on future events (however she got here, she's here), but it's certainly not superfluous in regards to the story. Assuming Sasaki is not just "another Haruhi," what she really is, and Haruhi's involvement in that is fairly central to the mythos of the series. If it's glossed over, you're going to have some pissed fans, myself being one.

I think "retcon" is the perfect term for what Haruhi does- Retroactive Continuity. Just like an author of fiction will change around previous history to accomodate a new story, reality shifts around so that what Haruhi wants was always in place. Although Itsuki claims his powers developed at the 3/4-years ago event, we don't know that dormant powers were retconed into him at birth.

And I only call Sasuki's original history superfluous because Kyon wouldn't be able to be aware of it, so letting the reader know the full details would be problematic.

Haruhi's "retcons" being the direct cause of the timeline breaks (in particular the one the time travelers can't get past) is not something I'd thought of, and brings up an interesting thought. Should my above theory be true, it would be the largest single effect that Haruhi has had on the past timeline, and whether Sasaki's existence, or the nature thereof, was created by Haruhi, four years back could be a possible start to that. Wouldn't it be interesting if her creation of Sasaki-rival was the start to everything?

Yes, I think it would. We know something snapped the timeline off at that one oft-referenced point in time, and so far we've all been content with the explanation of that being when Haruhi changed "everything". But the revelation of an exact sequence of changes would be neat.

Haruhi already has romantic "rivals" in Mikuru and Yuki (to varying degrees in each story).

Yuki and Mikuru are her friends. While it's understandable in a story such as this that there may be a bit of romantic tension between a heroine's friends and her love interest, they are not, in Haruhi's subconscious mind, a credible threat (whether they really are or not). Sasaki, on the other hand, is, for the sake of the story, t3h 3v1l. She may eventually become a friend, but only after she "gets over" Kyon.

I can't say I agree with that. I'll allow that Haruhi may very well not consider Mikuru a credible threat- Haruhi seems more irked at Kyon's attention to Mikuru than Mikuru herself. Likewise, in Snow Mountain Syndrome and Charmed At First Sight LOVER, Haruhi's jealous ire is directed at Kyon, not Yuki. However, her words in Snow Mountain Syndrome reveal that she fears a much deeper connection between Kyon and Yuki than just the physical attraction he has towards Mikuru. But that could just be my inner Yuki-fanboy coming to the fore.

Plus, if her tendency was to create a bizarro version of herself, wouldn't Sasaki be more of a fan of love and romance? Or perhaps Haruhi's subconscious installed a fail-safe to make sure Sasaku could never really win... Certainly Sasaki's personality is in direct contract to Haruhi's in all other regards.

Haruhi is nothing if not egotistical. In her mind, Kyon is madly in love with her, so her rival should share some similarities (otherwise Kyon would never be attracted to that rival), yet be different enough so it's easy for Haruhi to dislike her.

Good point.

And if Haruhi gave and stole Sasaki's powers, does that mean she has some inkling of her own extraordinary capabilities?

Since she never creates an effect that would seem odd to herself (outside of the end of Melancholy, which she thought was a dream), her conscious mind has no reason to expect anything out of the ordinary. However, her subconscious is absolutely aware of her capabilities. There's just too much intelligence behind what she's done for her not to be controlling it on some level.

Oh? Care to expand on that?

If the theory's right (and honestly, I doubt we'll ever see evidence to disprove it, one way or the other), it opens up further points to ponder. Is the whole Bizarro-SOS a part of Haruhi's unwitting maniuplations? Or have they seized on this chance opportunity? If they were created/influenced by Haruhi, how much does she know about her own Brigade? Kyon may come to very much regret attempting to tell Haruhi about the Brigade members at the end of Book 1... or rather, even more than he already has.

Everything is a part of "Haruhi's unwitting manipulations".

This is just going to get us into a discussion on the nature of God...

I've... I've almost got what you're saying here...

Whenever I read her story, it makes my head hurt. It's a mindscrew and a half...

She could work for GAINAX...

Don't feel bad; I still haven't settled on an explanation for Part 3.

And she's at least more consistent than GAINAX. Her whole story doesn't make sense, not just the ending.

Everything is a part of "Haruhi's unwitting manipulations".

Doesn't this create somewhat of a trap in thinking? Assuming that Haruhi is responsible for EVERYTHING kind of makes the intentions of the Dark Brigade moot in the end, because, with that reasoning, there's no way they could win.

(I hope you get what I'm saying here, it's not very clear, I know...)

It's all fiction. Of course there's no way they could win. In universe, whether Haruhi "created" the Bizarro Brigade or not, she could still smack them down without even trying. Unless Kuyou can steal Haruhi's powers, too...

[Kaisos Erranon]

Don't feel bad; I still haven't settled on an explanation for Part 3.

And she's at least more consistent than GAINAX. Her whole story doesn't make sense, not just the ending.

That's true.

It's all fiction. Of course there's no way they could win. In universe, whether Haruhi "created" the Bizarro Brigade or not, she could still smack them down without even trying. Unless Kuyou can steal Haruhi's powers, too...

Now THAT would be a fun plot development.

[magus]

I alwasy thought that Kuyou is here to steal the power........ since she don't seem to care about anything at all.

[HAL9000]

Spoiler! :

Hence the reason Emiri Kimidori has been lurking in the background these past few volumes.

[Kaisos]

Spoiler! :

Hence the reason Emiri Kimidori has been lurking in the background these past few volumes.

I thought it was because

Spoiler! :

Yuki went insane and recreated the universe, and thus the ISDE decided she needed a chaperone to make sure it didn't happen again.

[Quiet Lurker]

Ironically, when Yuki recreated the world she DID include a ISDE chaperone for herself (i.e. Asakura Ryoko) we all know how that went.

Incidentally, Kimidori's disposition towards Kyon is at best... unfriendly:

The waitress revealed a gentle smile, not showing any sign of disgruntledness or uneasiness. From the eyes of others, this is a very normal smile. But what I saw behind that façade was a sense of coldness similar to that of an icicle.

If Yuki breaks down in Volume 10 as the cover hinted, Kimidori may well blame Kyon for it.

[quigonkenny]

Incidentally, Kimidori's disposition towards Kyon is at best... unfriendly:

The waitress revealed a gentle smile, not showing any sign of disgruntledness or uneasiness. From the eyes of others, this is a very normal smile. But what I saw behind that façade was a sense of coldness similar to that of an icicle.

If Yuki breaks down in Volume 10 as the cover hinted, Kimidori may well blame Kyon for it.

Actually, I think her coldness was directed toward Kuyoh, who had just grabbed her wrists. Kyon's just gotten really good at reading the hidden emotions of the IDSE's humanoid interfaces (lotsa practice).

It's interesting that that scene be brought up. I think this scene will end up being more important in the next book than one might expect. I think Kuyoh did something to Kimidori here, and as a direct result, Yuki got sick at the end of the book. I think Kuyoh "infected" Kimidori, with the intent to assault Yuki (and possibly Kimidori and any other LHI's we haven't encountered), kinda like the situation in Snow Mountain Syndrome. It could be setup for an action to occur in Volume 10, to get Yuki out of the way so she can't interfere. If I remember correctly, we don't see Kimidori for the rest of the book, so she may be worse off than Yuki.

This scene does not happen in the alpha timeline, as Kyon never gets the call from Sasaki, and one could asume that even if the dark SOS-dan does still hold the meeting, Kimidori may not keep as close an eye on them if Kyon (who the IDSE has accepted as important) is not there. Yuki getting sick also does not happen in the alpha timeline.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Incidentally, Kimidori's disposition towards Kyon is at best... unfriendly: If Yuki breaks down in Volume 10 as the cover hinted, Kimidori may well blame Kyon for it.

Actually, I think her coldness was directed toward Kuyoh, who had just grabbed her wrists. Kyon's just gotten really good at reading the hidden emotions of the IDSE's humanoid interfaces (lotsa practice).

It's interesting that that scene be brought up. I think this scene will end up being more important in the next book than one might expect. I think Kuyoh did something to Kimidori here, and as a direct result, Yuki got sick at the end of the book. I think Kuyoh "infected" Kimidori, with the intent to assault Yuki (and possibly Kimidori and any other LHI's we haven't encountered), kinda like the situation in Snow Mountain Syndrome. It could be setup for an action to occur in Volume 10, to get Yuki out of the way so she can't interfere. If I remember correctly, we don't see Kimidori for the rest of the book, so she may be worse off than Yuki.

This scene does not happen in the alpha timeline, as Kyon never gets the call from Sasaki, and one could asume that even if the dark SOS-dan does still hold the meeting, Kimidori may not keep as close an eye on them if Kyon (who the IDSE has accepted as important) is not there. Yuki getting sick also does not happen in the alpha timeline.

Does anyone else get the feeling that only the alpha timeline is going to survive Vol.10?

[fiendmaw]

Frankly, i want 2 know how both timelines come up,however i dont see them interconnecting,and the thought of 2 endings is just...not cool.

[deskoh91]

I want to see the two storylines eventually connect, though I have a feeling it will be some kind of reset mechanism thingamajig again.