tone and style in translation

roastedpekingduck · Post by **roastedpekingduck** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:07 pm

First, I would like to say good job to the translators. Your work thus far has been great. I've just noticed that because we've had different translators for different areas of the book, there are definite tone and style differences in the novels. For example, depending on the translation, Kyon may come across as more laid-back, sarcastic, or dry. Perhaps a sort of style guideline could be set? I understand unifying styles would be very difficult, however, given that every person has a different writing style.

Also, does anyone have the feeling that in the ninth volume, the dialogue and sentences come across as a bit more formal and elaborate. Is the writing style in Japanese like that? It's not a feeling I can exactly pinpoint. The way Kyon describes things just appear different than before. Anyhow, I'm going to see if I can edit the story to make it appear a bit less formal and more natural English-y. For example, I'm made some minor tense changes because different languages have a tendency to use different tenses.

Edit: by the way, what is the quadrangle?

Edit2: never mind, I realize you're talking about the open areas in campuses. I substituted 'quadrangle' for 'quad', because that's the term students usually use in the U.S to describe the areas. If want to know what edits I've been making, I am the guy with the 216... ip address.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:08 pm

The style of wrting is also due in some part to the editors. Ultimatly, making everything sound uniform would either require a single person going through the whole eight volumes and changing things to the way he or she would translate them or the entire translation team going over everything together. This is just a fan translation, I doubt unless serious money is involved, anyone would redo an already done job.

I didn't think anything was wrong with "quadrangle". You should keep in mind that it isn't only U.S. English speakers that read these translations. Someone might understand English and read these translations, and your edit might be confusing them since you changed the term to a slang.

roastedpekingduck · Post by **roastedpekingduck** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:13 pm

Dan wrote:The style of wrting is also due in some part to the editors. Ultimatly, making everything sound uniform would either require a single person going through the whole eight volumes and changing things to the way he or she would translate them or the entire translation team going over everything together. This is just a fan translation, I doubt unless serious money is involved, anyone would redo an already done job.

I didn't think anything was wrong with "quadrangle". You should keep in mind that it isn't only U.S. English speakers that read these translations. Someone might understand English and read these translations, and your edit might be confusing them since you changed the term to a slang.

I thought quad was a fairly international term. When I went to visit my friend at an english-speaking Singaporean university some summers ago, the open area there was called a "quad" as well.

Smidge204 · Post by **Smidge204** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:56 pm

Aha, so you're the culprit!

I've undone your last few edits, but in a way that doesn't nuke the revision history... this way there is still a record of what you changed and things can be redone as we go.

"quadrangle" is the preferred term, since it is the closest to the original wording (中庭 - courtyard; quadrangle; middle court;)

Other than that, I just want to say that nothing you did was wrong or that undoing your edits was a form of punishment. It's just that, as a community-oriented editing process, significant changes should be discussed a bit first.

For example:

The new school term had been in progress for a few days, though we haven't started with the curriculum yet.

The new school term had been in progress for a few days, though the new school year hasn't started yet.

Compare these two sentences. In the first (older) version, the school year has started buy lessons haven't begun yet. In the second (newer) version, "school term" and "school year" are virtually synonymous and it no longer makes much sense... school started but school hasn't started yet?

The original text is found in the middle of Page 11:

新学年、新学期が始まって数日が経過した今はその放課後だ。

I'll be the first to admit my Japanese is practically nonexistant, but my best guess would be: "New grade, the beginning of a new school term, and it's now a few days after school began." or something to that effect... probably. Either way it seems things were a tad off so I'd like to get a translator to look at it.

Also, saying things like "I shall" instead of "I'm going to" seem to fit perfectly into Koizumi's character. Keeping each character's personality in mind is essential when editing!

Sorry if I'm being picky, but ultimately I think discussing even small things liek this make for a better result.
=Smidge=

Eh-chan · Post by **Eh-chan** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:08 pm

I think we should leave it to the translators to set the tone. The job of the editors should be to improve sentence structure and flow, not necessarily "Americanize" the piece.

In a licensed manga, you WILL see tons of stylistic changes added in to make the book more enjoyable to an English reader. These include swapping words, cultural references, etc.

I looked at your edits and a lot of them did seem to be based on your own stylistic decisions. When I edit, I read through, and if I get stuck on a sentence, I will fix it. I will only fix it if I feel it has become bogged done with verb tense inconsistencies, broken structure, or overuse of words. Otherwise, if the sentence is readable, I leave it alone.

Things such as adding/removing contractions, substituting words, or messing with otherwise okay sentences are things I do not do. The only time I will actively change a word is if I feel the sentence doesn't fit, or if the word was probably what was originally intended to be used but was just mistranslated (see the "Parody" section in the Vol. 9 prologue discussion page).

As for character's speech mannerisms, I have the following to say:

Kyon: Not so much layed-back. I think the better term would be "apathetic". Like "Whatever Haruhi, just don't get me involved". I always viewed him as somewhat formal and direct. And of course sarcastic. Bear in mind the characters ARE growing up, and as required in any GOOD novel, they will undergo slight or possibly drastic changes in personality as the story progresses.

Itsuki: Definitely very formal and long winded. He's the type of person who really just likes to hear himself talk. This means big words, lots of them, and no contractions. He's the type of person who says "I shall do such and such a thing" instead of "I will do such and such a thing".

Mikuru: Definitely very polite and formal.

Yuki: Extremely formal, yet concise. She says only what she has to say, but in a formal manner.

Haruhi: She just speaks like Haruhi. Informal, rude, and direct. "Get your butt over hear stupid Kyon! Don't make me repeat myself!"

That's my view of it.

Feel free to interpret it as you will, but like what has been said before, discuss the significant changes first.

I look forward to working with you in the future! =D

(by the way, I'm "Haruhi's loyal subordinate" on the Wiki page)

roastedpekingduck · Post by **roastedpekingduck** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:18 pm

Smidge204 wrote:Aha, so you're the culprit!

I've undone your last few edits, but in a way that doesn't nuke the revision history... this way there is still a record of what you changed and things can be redone as we go.

"quadrangle" is the preferred term, since it is the closest to the original wording (中庭 - courtyard; quadrangle; middle court;)

Other than that, I just want to say that nothing you did was wrong or that undoing your edits was a form of punishment. It's just that, as a community-oriented editing process, significant changes should be discussed a bit first.

For example:

The new school term had been in progress for a few days, though we haven't started with the curriculum yet.

The new school term had been in progress for a few days, though the new school year hasn't started yet.
Compare these two sentences. In the first (older) version, the school year has started buy lessons haven't begun yet. In the second (newer) version, "school term" and "school year" are virtually synonymous and it no longer makes much sense... school started but school hasn't started yet?

The original text is found in the middle of Page 11:

新学年、新学期が始まって数日が経過した今はその放課後だ。
I'll be the first to admit my Japanese is practically nonexistant, but my best guess would be: "New grade, the beginning of a new school term, and it's now a few days after school began." or something to that effect... probably. Either way it seems things were a tad off so I'd like to get a translator to look at it.

Also, saying things like "I shall" instead of "I'm going to" seem to fit perfectly into Koizumi's character. Keeping each character's personality in mind is essential when editing!

Sorry if I'm being picky, but ultimately I think discussing even small things liek this make for a better result.
=Smidge=

In that case, feel free to revert the changes. From the previous volumes, sometimes Koizumi speaks in a a bit colder, but still polite and informal tone, but other times, he appears to be more verbose and sleazy. I liked more concise Koizumi a bit better, so forgive me if I took Koizumi the wrong way.

Also, I change the school year part because I read below paraphrasing that "the school year had not official started, but Haruhi was already at work" or something like that. In that case we should say above that, "The new school year has started, though lessons have not begun." Or something along the lines of that. Lessons appear to be a better phrasing.

Some also edits I made were not because of stylistic choices, but because of this/that confusion and ambiguous pronouns. Pronouns can save a lot of space and repetition, but other times they are quite annoying to correct because correcting them can destroy the sentence or make the sentence too repetitive.

roastedpekingduck · Post by **roastedpekingduck** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:21 pm

Eh-chan wrote:

Haruhi: She just speaks like Haruhi. Informal, rude, and direct. "Get your butt over hear stupid Kyon! Don't make me repeat myself!"

I definitely made a few changes for Haruhi's dialogue because her previous words had no contractions. Some of her sentences sounded a bit formal.

By the way, good summary of the characters. I think that should be posted in the Unified Format Guidelines subforum.

Eh-chan · Post by **Eh-chan** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:32 pm

That's cool. Just as mentioned, don't go too overboard.

Haruhi really strikes me as the type of person who wants to get her point across as quickly as possible, so I can definitely see her using lots of contractions. Another good thing to keep in mind is sometimes it is best to leave a word un-contracted if the character is REALLY trying to make a point.

For example, take this absolutely theoretical situation:

Kyon: Haruhi, this city search is utterly ridiculous and a waste of time. I demand you call it off and give me back my weekends.

Haruhi: I absolutely will NOT do such a thing! Baka Kyon!

And thanks about the characterization thing! I think I will suggest that in the format forum if anyone else thinks it's a good idea.

onizuka-gto · Post by **onizuka-gto** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:43 pm

Smidge204 wrote:Aha, so you're the culprit!

I've undone your last few edits, but in a way that doesn't nuke the revision history... this way there is still a record of what you changed and things can be redone as we go.

Your edits are also less likely to be reverted if you register on the Wiki, and add a summary for all your contributions.

We are a little sensitive to significant edits made by anonymous users and those that do not fill out an edit summary.

canthelpit · Post by **canthelpit** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:30 am

EDIT: I really don't want to resurrect the debate. I also don't want to get involved in a large debate in which I'll have to clarify myself over and over again and things will get so muddled that nobody will know who is arguing what.

So I edited out my post. Maybe I'll repost it some other time, it's saved on my computer.

Since I'm planning on translating and I can read the book myself in its original form, none of this will affect me or my personal translations, really.

For a simple statement, as a translator, I don't think I would like it much if people changed my word choices, and maybe even clause orders, without me knowing.

onizuka-gto · Post by **onizuka-gto** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:36 am

*sigh*

How come I'm getting De~Ja'Vu all over again?

I swear I've had this same argument before....

Oh well I'm too lazy to go foraging in the archive discussions we have on the wiki and forum, but trust me, we have had this argument before, so before you wish to ressurect this debate again, please read up on past discussions, and then if you still wish to discuss this, please do so in the appropriate forums provided, and (if possible, as it will show you are taking this serious and have actually read previous debates) you must cite and linking back to previous comments as references, to support your argument.

Thank you.

obaka-san · Post by **obaka-san** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:52 am

erm... I believe languages are living things, each word doesn't have the exact meanings you make it to be but differs slightly from person to person. As that goes on, you can change the words/the tone set in the translation as it suits you but *only on your own computer*, give the translators your suggestion if needed to be. That and i must say: you, who hasn't even touched the original text have absolutely no right to criticize the translators...
erm... Am I being too much an extremist? maa~ maa~

the_naming_game · Post by **the_naming_game** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:34 am

I'm not sure if there is a thread that deals with ONLY this general topic. In general, the thread topics were born out of specific issues, or systemic issues in the translation.

However, if you skim over, you might come to see that you can't easily say "this is how Tanigawa Nagaru would have written it had he been writing with English as a native language." Word choices are simply NOT a one-to-one function between Japanese and English. To get a feel for this issue, browse this forum for any threads trying to decide what word to use for a term in the novel.

For things relating to greater-than-word-level, here are a few early topics:
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=322
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=302
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17

Also, check any of the topics that Nutcase posted in, regardless of what forum it's in.

school term sentence:
I realize that trying to go through Japanese is slow (to say the least) if you don't know the language that well, but anyone who wants to better understand the original meaning should at least try a sanity check in wwwjdic. Just be aware of the limitations of a simple word-based breakdown. You lose subclauses, caveats, sense of doubt, tone, and figures of speech. And DO NOT take edict definitions and word choices as gospel, only as guidelines and memory joggers. If you want anything close to definitive, you should look over several translated example sentences, to get a feel for the context in which the word is usually used. And by that time, you'll probably decide that the English translation for any given Japanese word, really depends on the particular sentence.

(okay, knowing hiragana might help here...)

* 新【しん】 (pref) new; SP
* 学年【がくねん】 (n) year in school; grade in school; (P); EP
* 新学期【しんがっき】 (n) new school term; (P); EP
* Possible inflected verb or adjective: (te-form)
始まる【はじまる】 (v5r,vi) to begin; (P); EP
* 数日【すうじつ】 (n) few days; (P); EP
* 経過【けいか】 (n,vs) passage; expiration; progress; (P); EP
* 今【いま; こん】 (いま) (n-adv,n) now; the present time; just now; soon; immediately; (one) more; (こん) this; now; SP
* 放課後【ほうかご】 (n-t) after school; (P); EP

- 新学年、新学期が始まって数日が経過した今はその放課後だ。
- しんがくねん、[[[しんがっきがはじまって][すうじつがけいかした]いま]は[そのほうかご]だ。]
- shingakunen, [[[shingakki ga hajimatte] [suujitsu ga keika-sita] ima] wa [sono houkago] da.]
(take this structural breakdown as a guideline only; also, the style is informal, but seems excessively wordy at the same time.)

- New school year; the current time, [in which the new school term has begun, and a few days have passed], is the end of classes.
- It's the new school year; the new school term started a few days ago, and right now, classes are done.

(I'm not going to make a habit of doing this, mind...)

onizuka-gto · Post by **onizuka-gto** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:32 am

(I'm not going to make a habit of doing this, mind...)

Yes. And I said I will never drink again ever....

Post by **HolyCow** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:15 am

the_naming_game wrote:Also, check any of the topics that Nutcase posted in, regardless of what forum it's in.

Agreed, though you might want to skim over some of the replies...

What happened to Nutcase anyway? It's something I'm interested to know lol