The rival entity's name

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magus
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Post by magus »

Natsuke wrote:Well when you think about it, Spatial and Horizon and Dominion are actually words that can be looked at as simple to Yuki. Spatial is literally understood as Space. It doesn't get any clearer than that and it's better that macro-whatever or whatever I even put.

Dominion, well, that's borderline. Domain, too. But if I were to think deskoh's thinking, I would think she's /still trying/ to make it simple but isn't really getting there. However, her attempts were noticed by Kyon since he talks to her the most out of the entire Brigade.

I think Spatial Dominion/Domain is as simple as it gets. It's literally an Entity (within a domain) from.. space. lol

Spatial Doman it is! least to me~
Let's not forget that we are trying to translate something........ since yuki actully used 天盖 instead 宇宙, it would automatically vito anything that means it......... what yuki trying to conve is that they are a domion that covers the sky. So it's basically"Sky cover domion". :?
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Natsuke
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Post by Natsuke »

i disagree~ I think you're looking for an almost literal meaning. I'm not saying let's be vague but space does cover the sky and even consumes it at night.
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magus
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Post by magus »

Natsuke wrote:i disagree~ I think you're looking for an almost literal meaning. I'm not saying let's be vague but space does cover the sky and even consumes it at night.
Um..... what? I'm just saying that we should try staying true to the original.
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Natsuke
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Post by Natsuke »

If by original you mean the original name Baka-Tsuki gave it, when you read the beginning, they were debating on just what the original name /was/. If you meant the original writing of it, that's what I was disagreeing about. From what I see, the use of "Sky Cover Dominion/Domain" is almost as if it's a rough barebones translation of the actual characters used in the writing (天盖).

If it's spatial you're worried about, just make it "Cosmic Domain". There's really no way you can decipher Cosmic as anything but Outer Space unless you literally read or were a Webster dictionary.

If we're talking about something covering, you can even call is a "Closed Domain" which would actually tie to Closed Space.

From what I see in this thread, it's useless to keep adding new words to the mix. I added my last with "Closed". This thread literally has many words to choose from, so I think it's for the better to use what we have now than delve deeper into a sea of words.
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magus
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Post by magus »

Natsuke wrote:If by original you mean the original name Baka-Tsuki gave it, when you read the beginning, they were debating on just what the original name /was/. If you meant the original writing of it, that's what I was disagreeing about. From what I see, the use of "Sky Cover Dominion/Domain" is almost as if it's a rough barebones translation of the actual characters used in the writing (天盖).

If it's spatial you're worried about, just make it "Cosmic Domain". There's really no way you can decipher Cosmic as anything but Outer Space unless you literally read or were a Webster dictionary.

If we're talking about something covering, you can even call is a "Closed Domain" which would actually tie to Closed Space.

From what I see in this thread, it's useless to keep adding new words to the mix. I added my last with "Closed". This thread literally has many words to choose from, so I think it's for the better to use what we have now than delve deeper into a sea of words.
That what i saidImage......... 天盖领域 would basically be "Sky cover domion". What i'm saying is that we should try stick to the original text instead of comeing up with words that deal with space and sounds profissional.
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canthelpit
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Post by canthelpit »

er... we really should stick closer to what tanigawa wrote. i haven't been following the debate on here for awhile, but here's the reason plain and simple:

yuki gives a reason for the IDSE's naming of the MCQE or whatever. the name is a metaphor and if you change the meaning of the name, when yuki and kyon reveal how the name was derived, the description they give won't make sense and readers will be left going "lol wut?" when they try to conceptually link the description and the name to understand the metaphor.

hope that's clear.



that being said, "Closed Domain" would work well enough, as it sort of has the functionality of being imperceptible, perhaps due to nature(a property which is key to the metaphor). i, however, would prefer "closed off dominion/domain." but personally, i find canopy domain to be more poetic and descriptive, although it sounds weird at first(i think it's meant to sound weird--kyon's initial reaction to it is "canopy... what?").

also, "The Domain Above the Canopy" would work excellently.
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Natsuke
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Post by Natsuke »

magus wrote:That what i saidImage......... 天盖领域 would basically be "Sky cover domion". What i'm saying is that we should try stick to the original text instead of comeing up with words that deal with space and sounds profissional.
But that's the thing. "Sky Cover Do... (Whatever that says)" does not look professional at all. Sticking close to the original is indeed a big part of translating, but translation must also deal with trying to be flexible towards their /intended audience/ and making sure it doesn't raise question marks, which "Sky Cover (whatever that word is)" does, and I mean that with no ill-will at all. You have to realize that this is intended towards readers who most likely have english as a primary language, and "Sky Cover" could literally be describing multiple things, and it also doesn't roll on an english tongue well. Remember, yes we have to stick to the original, but you /also/ have to make the reader understand. Fluidity is a essential part of the translation process; that's why when you watch fansubs you realize they try their hardest to make use of words so that it rolls off the tounge well and can be as clearly understood as possible.

Also, my intention in this debate is to try and think of a /rememberable/ name. Sky Cover Do-something sounds like a name that would most likely /not/ be in competition to the Data Thought Integration Entity (I think I got that right, but Data Thought is always in my head, lol) and does not sound like it would be remembered as such. Though it's only a nickname, it's probably going to be a nickname used from here on out in new volumes, so it's essential that yes, we /do/ stick to the original, but also make the name's translation as fluid, understood and /noticeable/ as possible.

EDIT: Canopy Domain also sounds like what Kyon reacted to, and Yuki would then correct. I guess we're looking for what Yuki's saying. "Canopy.. what?" is definitely a Kyon saying~~ lol
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magus
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Post by magus »

Natsuke wrote:
magus wrote:That what i saidImage......... 天盖领域 would basically be "Sky cover domion". What i'm saying is that we should try stick to the original text instead of comeing up with words that deal with space and sounds profissional.
But that's the thing. "Sky Cover Do... (Whatever that says)" does not look professional at all. Sticking close to the original is indeed a big part of translating, but translation must also deal with trying to be flexible towards their /intended audience/ and making sure it doesn't raise question marks, which "Sky Cover (whatever that word is)" does, and I mean that with no ill-will at all. You have to realize that this is intended towards readers who most likely have english as a primary language, and "Sky Cover" could literally be describing multiple things, and it also doesn't roll on an english tongue well. Remember, yes we have to stick to the original, but you /also/ have to make the reader understand. Fluidity is a essential part of the translation process; that's why when you watch fansubs you realize they try their hardest to make use of words so that it rolls off the tounge well and can be as clearly understood as possible.

Also, my intention in this debate is to try and think of a /rememberable/ name. Sky Cover Do-something sounds like a name that would most likely /not/ be in competition to the Data Thought Integration Entity (I think I got that right, but Data Thought is always in my head, lol) and does not sound like it would be remembered as such. Though it's only a nickname, it's probably going to be a nickname used from here on out in new volumes, so it's essential that yes, we /do/ stick to the original, but also make the name's translation as fluid, understood and /noticeable/ as possible.

EDIT: Canopy Domain also sounds like what Kyon reacted to, and Yuki would then correct. I guess we're looking for what Yuki's saying. "Canopy.. what?" is definitely a Kyon saying~~ lol
Hmmm......... you kinda missed the whole point of my post there. Anyway, i don't really think "Closed Domain" would fit..... since yuki expalins it's being named that because 『それは我々から見て天頂方向より来た』 which in no way implies that it somehow form a closed space.
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pxstg
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Post by pxstg »

I honestly haven't been following this debate too closely, but how about settling this with a poll of the most viable options...?
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magus
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Post by magus »

Oni summon no jitsu? Or Call Canthelpit? :lol:
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quigonkenny
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Post by quigonkenny »

Anybody here watch Stargate Atlantis? Bear with me here. This is on topic.

In one of the first episodes (maybe the first episode, even), when the expedition first finds one of the Ancient shuttlecraft that they eventually dub "puddle jumpers", Lt. Ford and Dr. McKay decide to call it a "gateship", as it's a "ship that goes through the (Star)gate." Major Sheppard (Kyon's analogue on Stargate Atlantis if there ever was one) says that's a stupid name and tells Ford he doesn't get to name anything anymore, implying he sucks at naming things.

How does this relate to "Canopy Domain"? The IDSE also sucks at naming things. Not surprising, as this is their first attempt at naming instead of describing.

Natsuke, you are correct in your point that there should be a measure of artistic fluidity in translating a novel from one language to another. After all, it's a novel, not a technical manual. There's going to be an artistic quality to the words in their original tongue, and that should be preserved if at all possible. That said, a stark lack of artistry is an artistic quality all its own. 天蓋領域 translates literally to "Canopy Domain," and while there may be ways to translate that that sound better and keep the literal meaning, that misses the point that Kyon's reaction in chapter 3 is there to make. The name sucks. It's supposed to.

Now, there's another thing I'd like to point out. Since the beginning, we've been translating this as "Canopy Domain" (tengai ryouiki) and with good reason. 天蓋 (tengai) means canopy, and 領域 (ryouiki) means domain. But the surrounding conversation when Yuki first tells Kyon the name in chapters 2 (β-2) and 3 (α-5) (both are first times due to the whole α/β thing) doesn't quite fit with that translation. Reading the above comments, I think I have to agree with Magus that "Sky Cover Domain" (ten gai ryouiki) would be a better translation (and still a pretty bland name, too, so that's good).

My reasoning? Let's look at the two passages. (I'll use spoiler tags to save space, and also for the off chance that someone hasn't already been spoiled by the last 3 1/2 pages)

From β-2:
Spoiler! :
“Their salutation has been standardized temporarily.”

“Oh, tell me about that then.”

“Canopy Domain.”

Without considering any dramatizations, Nagato revealed the name in monotone.

“From what we see, they came from the above the sky.”
From α-5:
Spoiler! :
"They, the Canopy Domain--"

A word I couldn't ignore entered my ears, so I stopped her.

"Canopy... what?"

"Canopy Domain."

Nagato, who pronounced this quietly, said,

"That is the Data Integration Thought Entity's provisionally chosen name for them. It is great progress. Until now, we have not even had the concept attaching names."

While holding my chopsticks, I thought of the meaning of the name "Nagato Yuki," and she said,

"From our point of view, it's derived from beyond the zenith direction."

She added in a flat voice.

"And the 'zenith direction' is," I said, pointed my chopsticks at the ceiling, "Over there?"

"..."

Allowing the time for the mental multiplication of seven squared to pass, Nagato replied,

"Over there."

She pointed towards the mountain range outside of the clubroom's window. Although I understand the fact that it's north, it's an existence that cannot be seen no matter your methods, even by radio telescope. It wouldn't really matter which direction it came from. Bothering oneself with location's compass direction is the job of a diviner. And more than that,
The second passage is causing the most confusion as to what she's talking about. See, 天涯 (also pronounced "tengai") means "horizon", and thus "Canopy Domain" could have been a play on words, or showing that Kyon misheard her, especially with Yuki pointing toward what could be construed as the horizon. However, in both cases, Yuki is fairly clear that the name comes from the IDSE's perception that the rival entity comes from "beyond/above the sky." For those of you unfamiliar with astronomy, the "zenith" is the direction directly above the observer. The top of the sky, if you will.

A canopy, in all but the most broad definition (and the IDSE is not going to use a broad definition) is anything but "above the sky." However, someone observing something that appears to be beyond or above the sky, could certainly see it as being in an area the "covers" the "sky."

Of course, "ten", "gai", and "ryouiki" can legitimately be translated to any number of variations on "sky", "cover", and "domain", so we still have plenty to argue about. ^_^
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Re: The rival entity's name

Post by onizuka-gto »

okay, i've finally got to this discussion, just wondering why it has two names!

it seems that most people have gotten use to the name "canopy domain" , but i think we should just get this sorted now, because even though i've been reading it for some time and it has become familiar to me, it needs a cooler name because its definitely going to feature much more in vol.10.

so i'm going to put a poll up on it, and settle it once and for all.
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