So Kyon really was like Haruhi at one point.

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typhonsentra
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So Kyon really was like Haruhi at one point.

Post by typhonsentra »

Canthelpit's latest addition delves into a flashback from his time in middle school. It seems he used to think the same way as Haruhi but the one who put a stop to it was Sasaki. I like how the story always talks about how monotonous everyday life is yet at the same time the characters are dealing with such outrageous circumstances.
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canthelpit
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Post by canthelpit »

funny that everything sasaki says is basically crushed by the series' storyline itself in the next segment i'm going to put up tonight.
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canthelpit
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Post by canthelpit »

sorry for the double post, i want people who have already seen the topic to know there's new material in it, though, since i'm not totally sure if this translation is as good as i can get it or not

These aren't really spoilers, it's just a random conversation between Sasaki and Kyon in middle school.

My TL:
"If we consider things using that as a basis, if the chemical elements that compose your body were to be broken down, since there would be nothing but particles which are the same as electrons left, it's not impossible that you could pass straight through the wall in the same manner without making a hole."
Original JP:
それを踏《ふ》まえて考えると、キミの身体《からだ》を構成している元素もまた元をたどれば電子と同じ粒子《りゅうし》に他《ほか》ならないのだから、同じようにこの壁をぶち抜くことなく素《す》通りすることも不可能ではないという寸法だ。
Does her explanation sound simply wrong to anyone else? I've assumed the word "denshi" to mean "electron," and if that's the case, then it sounds like she's saying that only Kyon's electrons would need to pass through the wall, and he would come out unscathed. AND that kyon's atoms are made up only of electrons?

is she talking about smaller particles, such as quarks? in other words, is my translation wrong or is my understanding of the theory wrong?

i'm expecting that there may be some errors in this translation, for example at the end i simply chose to omit "ではないという寸法", which according to all my dictionaries says essentially "is ~~ kind of measurement", which I suspect is either a misprint or something close to "my estimate would be." but "my estimate would be" doesn't seem close enough to the original meaning, and it sounds like it doesnt really add much to the sentence(i abhor doing this kind of thing btw, but it really just seems awkward).
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onizuka-gto
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Post by onizuka-gto »

seems like what sasaki is talking about is material transportation, i.e. "beam me up!" tech.

while this is slightly different as startek & Stargate tech (If i can remember) is recording your physical data (atoms/DNA) and digitalising it, then destroy the original, before reconstructing it on the otherside.

what she trying to say (with my limited understanding) is that he basic theory of physic, is that when you observe materials atthe atomic level, atoms of another type can easily slipt between other objects because there is enough space between them to let individual atoms though.

even walls have this space.

The only problem is that the atom has to navigate though these space, which can be difficult, plus atoms will easily collide with others, hence why solid walls are erm....solid and difficult to pass.

Anther technique is to translate the body atoms into something far-far smaller (such as quarks) and though they will easily pass though any other objects with atoms.

Electrons are particles which "orbit" an nucleis, they are in theory smaller then the "atom" (subatomic) but a human body cannot be made up entirely of them, as electrons need to bind with a nucleis to form an "Atom".

But if you have the technology to change a body into entirely electrons you can pass though a wall, and travel down copper wires, elctricity after all is just excited electrons.

i hope this makes it alittle bit more clearer.

i just on the eadge of confusion myself.

If anyone else spots any obvious mistakes in my explaination please point it out.

I need to rest my head now. it hurts. :cry:
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure.Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official test record, followed by death. Good luck."

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canthelpit
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Post by canthelpit »

nevermind my earlier post, i am a fool and after doing some quick yahoo research to confirm my suspicions it appears i didnt learn anything from the particle physics book i read a long time ago.

electrons are not composed of any quarks, apparently. i thought this might be the case as i remembered something about electrons being different(and it was the only way it made any kind of sense).


/wrists

therefore i assume by 'particles that are the same as electrons' she either means some hypothetical particle X that makes up everything, or more likely, that kyon could move through the wall because he is technically made up of quarks and electrons, which are both fundamental particles. although in reality it would be impossible for him to be intact on the other side. we might even find some new particles unknown to physics.

the good news is that the translation should be accurate.



Anyways, sorry to derail your thread typhon.
i dont like the way sasaki thinks. hope her character turns out to be more than "the extreme realist" archetype, if you all know what i mean by that. she thinks like kyon, except i can understand and identify with kyon's viewpoints, but sasaki seems to just be one of those rationalists that condemn all emotion, and even though i used to have thoughts like hers, i recognized that i only had them as a strategic way to depress myself(i am a strange person) and knew they were incorrect. "Love is an instinct, and so it obstructs the way to computerized autonomous thought, and therefore is bad." ha.

clearly, kyon didnt take all of her philosophies with him to high school. wonder what sort of statements tanigawa is going to make about all the ideas she's spouting, although at this point it's sort of apparent what he'll probably say.
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typhonsentra
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Post by typhonsentra »

No problem Cathelpit, what you put into the wiki makes perfect sense to me by the way. I don't know too much about the subject, but can't atoms pass through atoms because their composition is almost entirely empty space? If they're able to pass the electrons which orbit the nucleus of protons/neutrons, then collision is very unlikely. But this is very difficult to pull off as electrons move at very high speeds (Near the speed of light).

As for Sasaki, I agree that her thinking is too rigid and simplistic. At the same time however she's probably the most positive portrayal of a hard atheist I've seen in fiction which makes her intriging to me. I know it hasn't been expressly stated but it's the impression I'm getting from her scientific philosophy. But at the same time, this revelation makes me wonder how she could possibly accept what Fujiwara and the others have told her about her being some sort of supernatural entity without much hard proof.
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onizuka-gto
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Post by onizuka-gto »

....sure....glad to know my post was helpful....

*sits in the corner drawing in the sand with a stick*

/(._. ) .......
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure.Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official test record, followed by death. Good luck."

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Post by HolyCow »

onizuka-gto wrote:*sits in the corner drawing in the sand with a stick*
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/me claws out throat and dies
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Post by Jumpyshoes »

You must be really bored . . . . Almost as bored as I am . . .
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Zalthers
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Post by Zalthers »

Oh, not sure if anyone thought of this. But, electrons repulse each other? Walls have their own electrons, their magnetic radius is actually covering the empty spaces. so (correct me if i'm wrong) it's more like an empty ball with a transparent marble filling. It looks empty, but there's no way you can just poke through.

Here's another thought, it would be more feasible if electrons had zero charge, you'd could say you should pass through the wall.
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canthelpit
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Post by canthelpit »

well then allow me to thank you for your post, GTO =p i've heard of the theory before, but i imagine that other people will find your post helpful in understanding just what sasaki is talking about who would be lost otherwise.

i won't bother much with an explanation(i'm no physicist so it would probably be riddled with inaccuracy), but i will say that sasaki's explanation is something i've heard of and would disregard any forces the wall would provide against electrons and quarks. i will also say that i pretty much can't believe that there is ANY chance that kyon could pass through intact, but that is basically besides her point.


i dunno if tanigawa has really portrayed sasaki in a positive light. there is a lot of display of athiest, rationalist know-it-all characters in the media and they are almost always "proven" wrong in the end(not that i think their way of thinking is right). tanigawa has definitely made an effort to make sasaki sound intelligent and knowledgeable, but kyon doesn't seem to agree with her much, and at one point even says that when she starts her diatribes after awhile he 'feels like he's been tricked.' in other words, it seems more to me like tanigawa is displaying her as a bit of a sophist who likes to talk a lot about big issues, although she is intelligent and knowledgeable for her age. perhaps she's overcome all that by the time we see her in the novel(i am doubting this). basically, kyon is a your window into tanigawa's real opinions, and if kyon doesn't see eye to eye with someone it means tanigawa doesn't either.

i find koizumi to be much more intelligent.
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typhonsentra
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Post by typhonsentra »

I disagree, as the standard characterization of atheists is that of someone who's perpetually unhappy (Outside of a handful of programs such as The West Wing). At the very least, she's well adjusted and seems not to be displeased with her own theories.

I'm aware she'll probably be used in the way you describe, but it seems more even-handed than I expected. Even if he (Tanigawa, who I believe is a Christian) believes she's wrong, he doesn't feel the need to demonize her.
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Post by Setherzam »

HolyCow wrote:
onizuka-gto wrote:*sits in the corner drawing in the sand with a stick*
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The beard! you forgot the beard
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canthelpit
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Post by canthelpit »

well, i was more or less trying to say that tanigawa's portrayal of sasaki is not really positive(although it may be positive compared to how athiests/realists are normally portrayed(villains who've lost faith in morals/god/etc., depressed cynics, etc.)), it's more neutral with kyon seemingly disagreeing with her by intuition. so i think what we're both trying to say amounts to the same thing.

either way, i'm going to wait until i get further along in the translation until i think too much more about it. all we've been introduced to so far is her ideas, really, and not how she actually may have felt about them at the time, or for that matter why she came to think them.
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typhonsentra
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Post by typhonsentra »

So can we expect more incites with some of the upcoming updates? :o
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