My theory about the rise of Sasaki

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ButtercupSaiyan
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My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by ButtercupSaiyan »

Warning, spoilers and conspiracy theories to follow ...

It stems from my re-reading of the final chapter, during Kyon's dream. Despite everyone focusing on the subtle slider hints, I think that there is also a major revelation concealed here!

I'm posting the parts that I thought important:

Sasaki: "Reality is not constructed in the same manner as movies or dramas, novels or manga. That's a disappointment to you, isn't it? The protagonists in the entertainment world, one day, suddenly, will find themselves faced with an unrealistic phenomenon, sense trouble, and will find themselves placed in a situation which could hardly be called pleasant. In the majority of cases, those stories' protagonists will, using intellect, bravery, a hidden power, or through developing an unspecified talent, overturn their broken-down circumstances. However, those are stories which undoubtedly can only occur in the fictional world. And it's because they are fiction that they are consequently realized in the entertainment world. If we were to posit that a world like in movies, dramas, novels, and manga was made to be ubiquitously visible in everyday life, then those forms of entertainment would not longer be entertainment, they would be documentaries."

Either this is very strong self-referential humor, or I believe that this is Haruhi's vision, as Kyon hints clearly. He no longer believes in Santa Claus, but could it be because Sasaki wants to believe in aliens, time travelers, etc, so they came to pass. Couldn't Sasaki also be a product of that as well? What if Sasaki was the original Haruhi, positing her powers into existence?

Wait, hold on!—I'm getting there ...

Sasaki: "And moreover, Kyon. If you were to be thrown into a dimension in which the world of those unrealistic stories existed, the question of whether you would be able to act as conveniently as the protagonists who appear in fiction do can only be called exceedingly dubious. If you ask why they can so freely wield intellect, bravery, hidden power, and special abilities to topple adversity, that would be because it was written that way. So, where is the author of your story?"

I have a theory that Haruhi may have met Sasaki before, especially given her powerful reaction to her appearance and the odd behavior between them. There could, conceivably, be another explanation beyond mere jealousy. Read on ...

Sasaki: "I've never understood the reasoning behind making the question of whether one is attractive or unattractive an issue in this life. I think that I want to be rational and logical, no matter the time, place, or situation. In accepting reality as it is, emotional and sentimental thought processes can be nothing but obstructive noise. I can't think of emotion as anything other than a crude shelter which impedes human evolution's progress towards autonomy. Especially feelings of love, it's like a kind of mental illness!"

Where have we heard that before?

Sasaki: "A long time ago, there was a person who said so. It was a very thought provoking statement, so I still remember it. You probably want to say crazy things like, 'well if love didn't exist, marriage couldn't happen and kids couldn't be made!'"

My conspiracy theory ends here. :)

I just feel like the dream had too many small details that didn't cleanly match out, and they immediately jumped out at me upon reading again, especially with Sasaki's sudden appearance in this book as an analogue to Haruhi, with NO backstory or explanation. It's too pat as foreshadowing goes.

Thoughts? Opinions?
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Guest
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Post by Guest »

I agree with the fact that Sasaki had the same powers as Haruhi in the past,I also believe that these powers were passed on between humans,randomly or through some criterias,and im saying that sasaki wasnt the first one,and that this 'ritual' has been from long ago.
It could be that when Sasaki met Haruhi,somehow(i can't really give and explanation)Haruhi stole her powers,thus disabling the mechanism,this is,in my opinion,the 'three years ago' incident.So about the incident its quite simple what happened:Haruhi stole Sasaki's powers and because of that,she created espers,was the center of a time quake,and produced a data explosion.This is backed up by Yuki which said that they only began to take interest in Haruhi three years ago,so they didnt notice Sasaki and the others before her because something abnormal happened between Sasaki and Haruhi,and Haruhi was not meant to receive such powers,but somehow she did.

Thats my theory regarding Sasaki and Haruhi,though i dunno how convincing it is.
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fiendmaw
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Post by fiendmaw »

damn,wasnt logged in...
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Kaisos Erranon
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Post by Kaisos Erranon »

You mention that Sasaki had no foreshadowing/backstory, yet she's been mentioned, in passing, since the first book.

Remember Kunikida's comment on Kyon liking weird girls?

Alt. Asakura makes the same comment later in Vol.4, Naragawa mentions Sasaki (though not by name) in LOVER, and Koizumi, again, mentions her in Editor-in-Chief.

They've been leading up to this for a while.

Also, I don't see how Haruhi's behavior towards Sasaki means that they've met before. I thought she was just shocked that Kyon actually had friends outside the brigade, or something.
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fiendmaw
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Post by fiendmaw »

I think the 'mental illness' phrase is proof enough of haruhi having met with sasaki before vol.9.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Post by Kaisos Erranon »

fiendmaw wrote:I think the 'mental illness' phrase is proof enough of haruhi having met with sasaki before vol.9.
Maybe they met the same person who told them both that?
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Post by quigonkenny »

This is what I think about who/what Sasaki is.

There aren't really any spoilers that haven't already been hinted at or discussed already above (and if there are, this is the discussion for Volume 9, so one can assume everything up to it has been read), but this is hella long, so bear with me...
Spoiler! :
All throughout the books, we've seen Haruhi subconsciously building "adventures" around herself:

In Volume 1, it was an introductory arc, as the heroine goes through the formation of her nakama group, the SOS-dan, and the introduction to her "love interest", culminating in her first kiss (even if she doesn't remember it, her subconscious does).

In Volume 2, it's the stereotypical cultural festival project story arc, which becomes considerably less stereotypical thanks to her intervention, even if she never finds out.

In Volume 3, we get the sports story, the missing person story, an overblown "murder mystery", and even a little backstory to flesh things out.

In Volume 4, we get a side-character story arc, with events apparently set in motion by said side-character. Of course, since Haruhi was behind, directly or indirectly, a number of things that caused said side-character to set those events in motion, we might just be able to chalk this one up to her, too.

Volume 5 gives us more Haruhi ability hijinks as she tries to get things just right, we get some more fleshing out of the aforementioned side-character through the wonder of inter-association competition, and we see the beginnings of an introduction to a real enemy to the SOS-dan (who may or may not have been "called" the same as Haruhi's nakama were). We don't really get any more backstory...

...But we do get some sidestory in return, in Volume 6, as we flesh out two of the side-characters in little one-shot stories, as well as some flashes back to two previous stories (with a student movie and some more mystery).

In Volume 7, we get another side-character arc, focusing on a different character this time, and are introduced to two more players on the "other side" of things (neither of whom ever meet Haruhi, but who are both quite obviously there because of her, one way or another). In this, and other elements of the story, we start to get the inklings of a larger overarching story...

...Which is promptly put on hold for Volume 8, as we dip back into the "Haruhi creates plot" trough, with a "school publication" mini-arc and another mystery story (she loves these), both caused, one way or another, by Haruhi.

Which brings us to Volume 9 and Sasaki... (I'll get there eventually)

One of the most unique and original things about the Haruhi Suzumiya stories is that this isn't just a typical manga/anime story, with the plot contrivances and familiar tropes you see in any number of other stories. This is a story about Kyon, an otherwise normal person who is all of a sudden "dropped into" another story, about a girl who has the ability and the proven willingness to make life into "a typical manga/anime story, with the plot contrivances and familiar tropes you see in any number of other stories", and what Kyon has to do to get around in these weird situations.

Haruhi is of course the Heroine of the story, with Kyon as the Love Interest and the Plucky (Snarky?) Comic Sidekick. Mikuru is the Fan Service, Yuki is the Quiet Girl with l33t h4xx, and Itsuki is the obligatory Bishounen/potential Yaoi candidate (she is a Japanese female, after all...) and the prime source of exposition. There are a number of rivals over the course of the series, from leaders of other school associations, to the obligatory student council president, to a number of shadowy organizations, culminating in a "dark" version of her nakama group which is on a mission to end her life as she knows it (even if she actually doesn't know it). But through it all, we haven't seen the one thing every anime or manga heroine must have—a love rival.

So Haruhi made one.

Now, I'm not saying Haruhi created the girl that is Sasaki out of whole cloth, complete with friends, memories, and retroactive, previously alluded to, backstory. Of course, I'm not saying she didn't (we are dealing with someone who has proven control over space and time). But I think it's highly possible that Haruhi gave her her "powers" (such as they are...n't-at-the-moment) and caused her to conveniently show up out of the blue one day. That "one day" being the one time Kyon shows up first to a group meeting, providing the only possibility for the rest of the SOS-dan to "walk in on" (so to speak) he and Sasaki conversing. The whole "taking of the powers", "similarly powered rival", yadda, yadda, is just another typical (mahou shoujo, this time, I believe) storyline, seen a million other places.

(Oh, and apparently she finally decided she wαnts a slider in the group...)

(Except that mayβe she didn't...)

As for the Sasaki backstory, how much is real and how much is not? Take note that Kyon's "remembrance" of the "mental illness" phrase took place in a dream he had of previous experiences of Sasaki. A dream he dreamt at the same time as Haruhi was dreaming, i might add... Was it something that "actually happened," as he said, or was it bleed-over from Haruhi's subconscious rearranging of past events to correctly frame the present ones?

Is Sasaki the "weird girl" that Kunikida and Naragawa spoke of in previous volumes, or is she what Haruhi imagined as said "weird girl" and inserted into the past, present, and memories of those involved? Or did she just change Sasaki subconsciously to fit more closely her idea of her ideal rival?
Something to think (and argue) about...
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Kaisos Erranon
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Post by Kaisos Erranon »

quigonkenny wrote:This is what I think about who/what Sasaki is.

There aren't really any spoilers that haven't already been hinted at or discussed already above (and if there are, this is the discussion for Volume 9, so one can assume everything up to it has been read), but this is hella long, so bear with me...
Spoiler! :
As for the Sasaki backstory, how much is real and how much is not? Take note that Kyon's "remembrance" of the "mental illness" phrase took place in a dream he had of previous experiences of Sasaki. A dream he dreamt at the same time as Haruhi was dreaming, i might add... Was it something that "actually happened," as he said, or was it bleed-over from Haruhi's subconscious rearranging of past events to correctly frame the present ones?

Is Sasaki the "weird girl" that Kunikida and Naragawa spoke of in previous volumes, or is she what Haruhi imagined as said "weird girl" and inserted into the past, present, and memories of those involved? Or did she just change Sasaki subconsciously to fit more closely her idea of her ideal rival?
Something to think (and argue) about...

Ow ow ow my head...

This is why this series is awesome. What truly is false and what truly is real?

There's no way I'm going to analyze this. Leave it to someone else...
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HAL9000
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Post by HAL9000 »

Kaisos Erranon wrote:There's no way I'm going to analyze this. Leave it to someone else...
Your wish is my command... 8)
quigonkenny wrote:So Haruhi made one.

Now, I'm not saying Haruhi created the girl that is Sasaki out of whole cloth, complete with friends, memories, and retroactive, previously alluded to, backstory. Of course, I'm not saying she didn't (we are dealing with someone who has proven control over space and time). But I think it's highly possible that Haruhi gave her her "powers" (such as they are...n't-at-the-moment) and caused her to conveniently show up out of the blue one day. That "one day" being the one time Kyon shows up first to a group meeting, providing the only possibility for the rest of the SOS-dan to "walk in on" (so to speak) he and Sasaki conversing. The whole "taking of the powers", "similarly powered rival", yadda, yadda, is just another typical (mahou shoujo, this time, I believe) storyline, seen a million other places.

(Oh, and apparently she finally decided she wants a slider in the group...)

(Except that mayße she didn't...)

As for the Sasaki backstory, how much is real and how much is not? Take note that Kyon's "remembrance" of the "mental illness" phrase took place in a dream he had of previous experiences of Sasaki. A dream he dreamt at the same time as Haruhi was dreaming, i might add... Was it something that "actually happened," as he said, or was it bleed-over from Haruhi's subconscious rearranging of past events to correctly frame the present ones?

Is Sasaki the "weird girl" that Kunikida and Naragawa spoke of in previous volumes, or is she what Haruhi imagined as said "weird girl" and inserted into the past, present, and memories of those involved? Or did she just change Sasaki subconsciously to fit more closely her idea of her ideal rival?
Well, my interpretation of Haruhi's powers is that she has the ability to "retcon" reality. That is, she doesn't affect the timeline and bring about a logic-loop, she wishes something to be in the present, and the past shifts to implement it. Hence why she causes breaks in the timeline, a la the "3/4 years ago" incident. So whether Sasaki existed or not before Haruhi's actions, or if she was the same person, becomes a fairly superfluous point. (Albeit one that is fun to ponder.)

As for Haruhi creating Sasaki, it's a very interesting thought, but I don't know that all the factors add up cleanly. Haruhi already has romantic "rivals" in Mikuru and Yuki (to varying degrees in each story). Plus, if her tendency was to create a bizarro version of herself, wouldn't Sasaki be more of a fan of love and romance? Or perhaps Haruhi's subconscious installed a fail-safe to make sure Sasaku could never really win... Certainly Sasaki's personality is in direct contract to Haruhi's in all other regards. And if Haruhi gave and stole Sasaki's powers, does that mean she has some inkling of her own extraordinary capabilities?

If the theory's right (and honestly, I doubt we'll ever see evidence to disprove it, one way or the other), it opens up further points to ponder. Is the whole Bizarro-SOS a part of Haruhi's unwitting maniuplations? Or have they seized on this chance opportunity? If they were created/influenced by Haruhi, how much does she know about her own Brigade? Kyon may come to very much regret attempting to tell Haruhi about the Brigade members at the end of Book 1... or rather, even more than he already has.
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Post by magus »

This reminds me of Asahina's theory about Haruhi....... Pretty sure no one remember it though :roll: . Her theory is that Haruhi doesn't change things, but she attracts those extraordinary things to her instead. That also means those extraordinary things exist normally. You can pretty much tell that she believes in this theory because it validate her own existence as a time traveler. So Koizumi's Haru-God theory basically means that he does not want his power and hope that one day it will disappear.

I know that the Disappearance and Endless eight pretty much destroys Asahina's thoery...... But I'm not soo sure now that Sasaki is in the scene. After all, Sasaki is interested in everything but the power......... I think that its a possibility that each Haruhi and Sasaki original posses a part of a bigger power..... and those two parts become linked.... because of you-know-who. If that is indeed the case, Sasaki probablly knows about this, either at a subconscious level or she just plain knows. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the theory Asahina belives may be partly true, that Haruhi brings something that can exist in this world.... things that Sasaki somehow made possible.
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Post by BCS-is-too-lazy-to-login »

Yare, yare. Quite a lot to think about.

I'll get back to you in a few days.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Post by Kaisos Erranon »

magus wrote:This reminds me of Asahina's theory about Haruhi....... Pretty sure no one remember it though :roll: . Her theory is that Haruhi doesn't change things, but she attracts those extraordinary things to her instead. That also means those extraordinary things exist normally. You can pretty much tell that she believes in this theory because it validate her own existence as a time traveler. So Koizumi's Haru-God theory basically means that he does not want his power and hope that one day it will disappear.

I know that the Disappearance and Endless eight pretty much destroys Asahina's thoery...... But I'm not soo sure now that Sasaki is in the scene. After all, Sasaki is interested in everything but the power......... I think that its a possibility that each Haruhi and Sasaki original posses a part of a bigger power..... and those two parts become linked.... because of you-know-who. If that is indeed the case, Sasaki probablly knows about this, either at a subconscious level or she just plain knows. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the theory Asahina belives may be partly true, that Haruhi brings something that can exist in this world.... things that Sasaki somehow made possible.
Something that (somewhat) destroys Koizumi's theory...

Yuki's writings in Vol 8 state that one of the first things she saw when coming to Earth was the falling snow, which is where she got her name from.

We know that she already calls herself that in July of the year that Haruhi changed the world.

Which means that she probably arrived sometime in December/January of the previous year. Except that, of course, according to Koizumi, she didn't even exist then, as the world-changing incident happened around March/April.

Koizumi's normal defense to this would probably be the Five-Minute Earth theory, but...
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Post by quigonkenny »

Kaisos Erranon wrote:Something that (somewhat) destroys Koizumi's theory...

Yuki's writings in Vol 8 state that one of the first things she saw when coming to Earth was the falling snow, which is where she got her name from.

We know that she already calls herself that in July of the year that Haruhi changed the world.

Which means that she probably arrived sometime in December/January of the previous year. Except that, of course, according to Koizumi, she didn't even exist then, as the world-changing incident happened around March/April.
Well, there's a couple reasons why that could be. First off, there's no reason to assume her apartment was the first place she showed up to when she came to Earth, or that she didn't do a little "reconnaissance" to get herself acclimated (maybe Kuyoh never did that, and that's why she's so distant; and maybe Asakura did it for too long, and that's why...well...).

Secondly, it's fairly apparent that the IDSE can travel through time. We've been told that Yuki herself can't, but she can obviously "requisition" that ability, as shown at the end of Volume 4. We've also been told that Mikuru's time travelers are unable to travel back past The Event, but we haven't been told that the IDSE has that same restriction (if their method is different, it could be entirely possible), and if I were the IDSE, I'd definitely want to go back to a time before that event to get the best observation. She could have been sent back to the previous winter, before Haruhi gained her powers.

Of course, she could have just gained the knowledge and experience of snow vicariously. We still don't know how she experiences the incomprehensible amount of data she has access to.

And keep in mind that we're still not sure when Haruhi gained/unlocked/whatevered her abilities. If it was tied to the baseball game she went to, as most assume it was, it was probably in late September/early October, or very late March, of her sixth grade year. From what I've been able to tell, Japanese professional baseball ends in early October and usually starts less than a week before school does (April 1). She saw the game at a time during that sixth year, by her own recollection, and it had to be close enough to the beginning of the next school year to still be considered "three years" ago at the time of Yuki, Mikuru, and Koizumi's revelations (during her tenth year). This means it was most likely in October, or even into November, if it was a playoff game (explaining the packed crowd).
Kaisos Erranon wrote:Koizumi's normal defense to this would probably be the Five-Minute Earth theory, but...
Five-Minute Earth? Nani?
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Post by Kaisos Erranon »

quigonkenny wrote:
Kaisos Erranon wrote:Koizumi's normal defense to this would probably be the Five-Minute Earth theory, but...
Five-Minute Earth? Nani?
The theory that states that the Earth could have been created five minutes ago, with everyone's memories, etc. created to make us believe the earth is much older. There is no effective way of disproving this, but you can't prove it either.

Koizumi quotes this in Vol. 1.

And yeah, I see there is many ways that Yuki could have experienced snow without disrupting what the espers say. Thanks.
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HAL9000
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Post by HAL9000 »

All of that assumes, of course, that she's really talking about snow in her story.
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