My theory about the rise of Sasaki

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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by onizuka-gto »

Aura, is this the only thread you reply in these days?
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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by AuraTwilight »

NO!

I also post in the Kyon Theory thread.
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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by Darklor »

AuraTwilight wrote:
Koizumi said something like that to Kyon. He said something like 'since he havnt this much to do anymore since Haruhi calmed down his power seems weaker'.
Of course his powers will seem weaker if Haruhi is producing less Closed Spaces, but then also take note that when he gave that comment, Mikuru and Yuki were also having difficulties contacting their masters or using their powers. It seems more likely to be a sign of Haruhi adjusting to, and accepting normal life, and reality is changing to reflect that.
Yeah, that is what I mean - if they lose their abilities how can then the others have their abilities from a person who didnt even believe in the first place - and never had - from a person who maybe even has destroyed Kyons believe?
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by AuraTwilight »

Yeah, that is what I mean - if they lose their abilities how can then the others have their abilities from a person who didnt even believe in the first place - and never had - from a person who maybe even has destroyed Kyons believe?
How do you mean? I don't understand this, sorry.
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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by Darklor »

Sasaki as "power source". | Haruhi as "powersource".

no believe: even said to Kyon that there is nearly no chance that timetraveller, asper or alien even exist. | believe: even wished for timetravellers, esper and alien

without emotion | full of emotion

no power | full of power -> loosing power -> her dan lose power

so how can the Sasaki dan still have power? If it should be the same the power, shouldnt it react in the same manner?

I didnt mean powersource as fuel, but it do look like the dan is dependent of how much power Haruhi let be free to work at full power. So if Haruhi would be stabil or normal the power of her dan would also be gone. No fear of a through Haruhi changed future for Asahina, no battles with Avatars for Koizumi, no reason for Yuki to watch Haruhi.

So I see two possibilies for the power of the Sasaki dan:

1st: Sasaki still have her power, but do not use it, because she have no reason and / or believe, emotions to do so.
2nd: The dan do not get their power from Sasaki, but someone else. (Maybe their power/existence came also from Haruhi, but since she wished for enemies they did get Sasaki instead. (if Kyon is the reason for the conflict) But if we say that Kyon isnt only a normal human but the counterpart to Haruhi, so could get the dan around Sasaki also their power from Kyon - he wished also for a evil organisation and since he is already in Haruhis dan they do gather around Sasaki. (and if they could convert Kyon to their side Haruhi would be the evil organisation ;))

Do you understand now, what I did mean?
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by AuraTwilight »

You're missing my point. Everyone's origins lie with Haruhi/Sasaki, but that doesn't mean they're a power source that needs to keep a constant connection. If, hypothetically, Haruhi gives Joe Bob telepathy, and then she gives her powers to someone else, or something, that doesn't mean Joe Bob loses his new superpower. Haruhi isn't a psychic battery.
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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by Darklor »

AuraTwilight wrote:You're missing my point. Everyone's origins lie with Haruhi/Sasaki, but that doesn't mean they're a power source that needs to keep a constant connection. If, hypothetically, Haruhi gives Joe Bob telepathy, and then she gives her powers to someone else, or something, that doesn't mean Joe Bob loses his new superpower. Haruhi isn't a psychic battery.
This may be true for Joe Bob, but not for Koizumi and probaly not for most members of his organisation which should be also true for their counterparts of Sasakis side, because their power is not only given to them but also directly connected to dead/closed space and the psyche of Haruhi/Sasaki. So if Sasaki have lost their power her closed space should be also gone, since this should be the same for Haruhis spaces since the spaces are directly created through their power. They should at the utmost retain a little empathie to Haruhi/Sasaki.

For timetravel: If Haruhi do lose her power to create subconscious the timetravelers direct through her own actions they would probably vanish. And possibly new timetravelers wouldnt be interested in her (but maybe in the.wearer of the power). I think it would be similar for the aliens. Yuki last action would probaly be a report to her entity before she would vanish or become a normal human girl (as a last gift for her work) and the rest of the aliens would from now on watch the new power wearer.
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by AuraTwilight »

This may be true for Joe Bob, but not for Koizumi and probaly not for most members of his organisation which should be also true for their counterparts of Sasakis side, because their power is not only given to them but also directly connected to dead/closed space and the psyche of Haruhi/Sasaki. So if Sasaki have lost their power her closed space should be also gone, since this should be the same for Haruhis spaces since the spaces are directly created through their power. They should at the utmost retain a little empathie to Haruhi/Sasaki.
Except Sasaki is lacking her powers, but her Closed Spaces are still there. More likely, without her powers, the Clsoed Spaces Sasaki created are still able to exist on their own. Besides, even if there were no Closed Spaces, Koizumi and everyone wouldn't lose their powers, they'd just have no functional way to use them. There's also the theory that what Kyoko showed Kyon wasn't a real Closed Space at all, but was an illusion to gain his trust.
For timetravel: If Haruhi do lose her power to create subconscious the timetravelers direct through her own actions they would probably vanish. And possibly new timetravelers wouldnt be interested in her (but maybe in the.wearer of the power). I think it would be similar for the aliens. Yuki last action would probaly be a report to her entity before she would vanish or become a normal human girl (as a last gift for her work) and the rest of the aliens would from now on watch the new power wearer.
Why? Why should time travelers and aliens just cease existing if Haruhi loses her powers? Psychic powers are one thing, but an entire alien race or a form of technology shouldn't need Haruhi to keep existing. If she made a subconscious decision to undo her alterations to reality, that'd be one thing. Haruhi's powers, or lack thereof, don't do things without her subconscious consent. It's the power of her will.
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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by Darklor »

AuraTwilight wrote:Except Sasaki is lacking her powers, but her Closed Spaces are still there. More likely, without her powers, the Clsoed Spaces Sasaki created are still able to exist on their own. Besides, even if there were no Closed Spaces, Koizumi and everyone wouldn't lose their powers, they'd just have no functional way to use them. There's also the theory that what Kyoko showed Kyon wasn't a real Closed Space at all, but was an illusion to gain his trust.
Thats what I mean. If it was an illusion it did not have to be Sasaki but Kyon with the lost power (The Kyon theory).
Or they want only remove Kyon from Haruhi -> Kyon as catalysor.
If it was real she should still have power, but they would need the key to activate it -> Kyon as the key.

(Its all about the fact that Kyon isnt a mere normal human - my theorie ;))
AuraTwilight wrote:Why? Why should time travelers and aliens just cease existing if Haruhi loses her powers? Psychic powers are one thing, but an entire alien race or a form of technology shouldn't need Haruhi to keep existing. If she made a subconscious decision to undo her alterations to reality, that'd be one thing. Haruhi's powers, or lack thereof, don't do things without her subconscious consent. It's the power of her will.
I havent said that the data entity would cease to exist, but also/even that wouldnt be impossible if we assume that the universe where Haruhi is without her power would be (have been) like the yukiverse. ;) (And they have to live the life again. Or have the memories of another life till then. An end like that wouldnt be unusual.) But What I said was that the data entity would adjust its attention to the new wearer of the power. He would withdraw his living interfaces from the duty to monitor Haruhi. The entity could create new (maybe better) interfaces and absorb the old ones or it could use interfaces again or both.) (Maybe even Yuki, since he wouldnt have to fear Haruhis and Kyons revenge from a powerless Haruhi, but he could also be nice and give Yuki the life she did want.)
The timetravelers arent created from nothing - they are still in creation. If the creation do stop because Haruhi is losing interest in timetravelers or her power to control their creation, would the timetravelers still know that Haruhi was the reason for the time-quake and do look after her? Would they even exist, would it still be Asahina? - Maybe, but what will happen after Haruhi lose her power with Asahina will depend of the for Asahina predetermined future if she will remain around Haruhi, but we also do know that she will go back to the future eventually.
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by Ambi Valent »

My theory is that there is no "rise of Sasaki". Haruhi still has the power, and like she created the groups behind the brigade members, she also created the groups behind the "anti-brigade" members - probably because of her thoughts that there was an enemy behind Kyon's stairway fall and coma. Haruhi probably knew about Sasaki since Kyon couldn't keep Kunikida quiet, so she made Sasaki the head of the anti-brigade. But she doesn't actually control the anti-brigade; I even think the anti-brigade is only held together by its opposition to the original brigade.

As for people losing their power, I think that's Haruhi's doing. She has considered the possibility of the brigade members being extraordinary, but the alien shows no superior technology (beyond hacking), the time traveller doesn't travel and the esper shows no powers either. So Haruhi, after having no proof after all those months, is finally giving up her belief in favor of being more normal and having friends. I think the confrontation with Sasaki might well be her last attempt of getting proof of the extraordinary.

Now what is the danger to Asahina's timeline? It might well be Haruhi deciding to be normal and giving up her belief in time travel. If time travel becomes impossible, Asahina's timeline has no possibility to support its own existance.

And what happens in alpha and beta? I think in beta, the confrontation happened, and when Kyon met the anti-brigade, Haruhi watched them and... saw nothing happen. Kyon went to Closed Space with Kyoko, but when they returned no time had passed for Sasaki and the others. So Haruhi started to shut down the powers she granted to others. In alpha, that didn't happen, instead there were several freshmen wanting to join the SOS-Brigade, leading to Haruhi keeping her faith in the extraordinary a bit longer. I think Haruhi will finally get some sort of proof... even if it's in the form of conflict between the different groups. So far, several characters have made conscious decisions to support the SOS-Brigade, but Haruhi just treated it as her plaything. With visible conflict, Haruhi might finally be forced to decide between her own desires and the wellbeing of her friends...
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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by AuraTwilight »

Thats what I mean. If it was an illusion it did not have to be Sasaki but Kyon with the lost power (The Kyon theory).
Or they want only remove Kyon from Haruhi -> Kyon as catalysor.
If it was real she should still have power, but they would need the key to activate it -> Kyon as the key.

(Its all about the fact that Kyon isnt a mere normal human - my theorie ;))
There's also the possibility that the Anti-SOS-Dan wants to transfer the power to Sasaki so they can control her, or they genuinely think she'd be a better, or is the rightful, God.
I havent said that the data entity would cease to exist, but also/even that wouldnt be impossible if we assume that the universe where Haruhi is without her power would be (have been) like the yukiverse. ;) (And they have to live the life again. Or have the memories of another life till then. An end like that wouldnt be unusual.) But What I said was that the data entity would adjust its attention to the new wearer of the power. He would withdraw his living interfaces from the duty to monitor Haruhi. The entity could create new (maybe better) interfaces and absorb the old ones or it could use interfaces again or both.) (Maybe even Yuki, since he wouldnt have to fear Haruhis and Kyons revenge from a powerless Haruhi, but he could also be nice and give Yuki the life she did want.)
The implication in the series is that Haruhi created everything supernatural, including the aliens. Why should the Espers lose their powers, but the aliens are okay?
The timetravelers arent created from nothing - they are still in creation. If the creation do stop because Haruhi is losing interest in timetravelers or her power to control their creation, would the timetravelers still know that Haruhi was the reason for the time-quake and do look after her? Would they even exist, would it still be Asahina? - Maybe, but what will happen after Haruhi lose her power with Asahina will depend of the for Asahina predetermined future if she will remain around Haruhi, but we also do know that she will go back to the future eventually.
Or there will be no time travelers at all. If Haruhi doesn't desire them, the universe is remade without time travel. Haruhi's power doesn't alter the universe, it destroys and remakes it from scratch, almost identical except for her intended change.
My theory is that there is no "rise of Sasaki". Haruhi still has the power, and like she created the groups behind the brigade members, she also created the groups behind the "anti-brigade" members - probably because of her thoughts that there was an enemy behind Kyon's stairway fall and coma. Haruhi probably knew about Sasaki since Kyon couldn't keep Kunikida quiet, so she made Sasaki the head of the anti-brigade. But she doesn't actually control the anti-brigade; I even think the anti-brigade is only held together by its opposition to the original brigade.
I've entertained that idea too. She might also have picked Sasaki as a love rival, so that she can subconsciously feel she's won Kyon properly after a romantic showdown.
As for people losing their power, I think that's Haruhi's doing. She has considered the possibility of the brigade members being extraordinary, but the alien shows no superior technology (beyond hacking), the time traveller doesn't travel and the esper shows no powers either. So Haruhi, after having no proof after all those months, is finally giving up her belief in favor of being more normal and having friends. I think the confrontation with Sasaki might well be her last attempt of getting proof of the extraordinary.
Possibly. In my mind, I think it's more that she's not getting frustrated at lack of evidence, but it's becoming less important to her. She's having too much fun as an almost-normal girl, and she's not even thinking about it as much. She's growing up.
Now what is the danger to Asahina's timeline? It might well be Haruhi deciding to be normal and giving up her belief in time travel. If time travel becomes impossible, Asahina's timeline has no possibility to support its own existance.
Correct. And Asahina will probably be paradoxically stranded.
And what happens in alpha and beta? I think in beta, the confrontation happened, and when Kyon met the anti-brigade, Haruhi watched them and... saw nothing happen. Kyon went to Closed Space with Kyoko, but when they returned no time had passed for Sasaki and the others. So Haruhi started to shut down the powers she granted to others. In alpha, that didn't happen, instead there were several freshmen wanting to join the SOS-Brigade, leading to Haruhi keeping her faith in the extraordinary a bit longer. I think Haruhi will finally get some sort of proof... even if it's in the form of conflict between the different groups. So far, several characters have made conscious decisions to support the SOS-Brigade, but Haruhi just treated it as her plaything. With visible conflict, Haruhi might finally be forced to decide between her own desires and the wellbeing of her friends...
This is an excellent idea, even though I don't like the idea of Haruhi getting proof. What are your thoughts on Slider-tan? She seems to foreshadow an eventual crossover of the alpha and beta timelines.
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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by Ambi Valent »

AuraTwilight wrote:though I don't like the idea of Haruhi getting proof. What are your thoughts on Slider-tan? She seems to foreshadow an eventual crossover of the alpha and beta timelines.
I wouldn't like Haruhi to get absolute proof about her own role, but enough to realize there is a conflict between groups and she has a role in it. I would appreciate it even more if Haruhi would continue to see them as normal people first, and consider special abilities as somehow similar to athletic skills in that they don't influence what people are worth. (parenthesis with comparison to ideology deleted)

As for "slider-tan", I don't know... from what I read in the forum so far, I think that nickname means a girl who called Kyon in alpha at the beginning of the split (and called him senpai) and later applied to join the brigade as the 5th female first-year. I think these are actually two different girls, the first one being sent by time-travellers (probably even Asahina's group, who staged that phone call so Sasaki's wouldn't get through, and to cause Kyon to take a closer look at the first-years), and the second by one of the groups behind the anti-brigade, who want an agent in the inner circle.

edit: After some pondering I think the first girl is probably a first-year at North High, but I still don't think she's the mysteriously appearing fifth female... she may be one of the other four, but maybe she's observing from outside, or maybe she's not at all involved yet and only will witness the situation escalate before being sent back in time to make that phone call.
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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

Dude, it's pretty obviously the same girl.

Phone Call Girl refers to Kyon as "senpai", and guess what Fifth Girl is? His kouhai.

Sure, it could be some coincidence, but in fiction, things tend to fall together like that...

As to why she's the slider... well, the only member of the brigade hopefuls actually drawn attention to is Fifth Girl, which makes it pretty obvious she's going to join the brigade, the only being that they're missing that Haruhi mentioned way back in the first book is a slider, and since this arc is about alternate universes...
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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by Darklor »

AuraTwilight wrote:Haruhi's power doesn't alter the universe
Haruhi can also alter the universe, we have that seen in the "Sighs" while creating the movie.
AuraTwilight wrote: The implication in the series is that Haruhi created everything supernatural, including the aliens. Why should the Espers lose their powers, but the aliens are okay?
Because they are different. Because of the implied history - the date entities came in existence with the creation of the universe, that would mean for a real universe with the big bang. While they noticed Haruhi only recently they were already around for while. But the espers did especialy awaken because and especialy for Haruhi or at least their power so without Haruhi their power should also again be gone (and an esper without his power isnt an esper ;) but a normal human being.), while data entities would live on. But what would be with the interfaces are a different matter. On one side are created nearly the same time as the espers but on the other side they werent created by but rather because of Haruhi (since the entities create them) to watch her power so if the power do wander their attention will wander.



(Maybe someone should write a summary of all the ideas we already have ;) - we circle around.)
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: My theory about the rise of Sasaki

Post by AuraTwilight »

Haruhi can also alter the universe, we have that seen in the "Sighs" while creating the movie.
It appears to alter the universe, but really, Haruhi is pretty much replacing it with a better one.
Because they are different. Because of the implied history - the date entities came in existence with the creation of the universe, that would mean for a real universe with the big bang.
And almost the entire backstory of the series implies Haruhi literally created the universe in 2007 just prior to Tanabata, so that's a moot point.
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