Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

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shichinanatsu
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Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by shichinanatsu »

i've been wondering why the translators and editors didn't include those lines, so before i went ahead and posted these on the wiki, i bothered putting them here first.. any thoughts?
Spoiler! :
As I was admiring, as always, Asahina-san in her maid dress, Tsuruya-san and Haruhi,

[Four lines of poems. Ogura Hyakunin Isshu no. 33 & no. 35 - two lines.]
OGI#33
OGI#35

Started a reciting contest.

[Ogura Hyakunin Isshu no.66 - two lines]
OGI#66

[Ogura Hyakunin Isshu no.67 - two lines]
OGI#67

[Ogura Hyakunin Isshu no.7 - two lines]
OGI#7

[Ogura Hyakunin Isshu no.94 - two lines]
OGI#94

Now it doesn't even have to do with cherry blossoms during Spring anymore. We've gone into Summer already, possibly even Autumn.
雨 (ame) trilogy 8)

[070428] アメサラサ (amesarasa)
[090925] 夏ノ雨 (natsu no ame)
[120831] イモウトノカタチ (imouto no katachi)
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by onizuka-gto »

I think it;s because the translator figured it was not in any way driven part of the plot so did not spare the effort to translate them.

if you have the Japanese original, please put them in, better to have them in then not.
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shichinanatsu
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by shichinanatsu »

suddenly, i can't access the links I just posted.. still, i was able a fraction of what i intended to post, from some other website, here it is..
Spoiler! :
Poem 7

ama-no-hara
furisakemireba
Kasuga naru
Mikasa-no-yama ni
ideshi tsuki kamo




Lifting my gaze to
The broad expanse of the sky,
I see the same moon
That once rose in Kasuga
Over Mount Mikasa!

-- Abe no Nakamaro

Comments

This waka first appears in the "Travel" section of the Kokin wakashū. As a youth, Abe was sent by the Nara court to study in China, where he spent 54 years (including a period as the Chinese governor-general of Vietnam) before dying in Chang'an.

This relatively straightforward poem, said to have been composed before Abe made an abortive attempt to return to Japan, is conventionally held to reveal both the strength of his affection for his homeland and a poignant awareness of the intervening years spent in China. Two place names are mentioned: Kasuga and Mount Mikasa. The former refers to an area in present-day Nara between Nara Park and Kasuga Shrine; the latter is a mountain located to the back of the same shrine, between Mount Wakakusa and Mount Takamado. The ending particle kamo in the last line is characteristic of Nara-period usage (Abe's dates are 698-770), adding the force of an exclamation to what has been said.

Literal rendition and notes

* Line 1: the-heavenly-plain
* Line 2: when-gaze-far-away
* Line 3: Kasuga | in (naru is a particle derived from ni aru)
* Line 4: Mount-Mikasa | over
* Line 5: appeared | moon | !
雨 (ame) trilogy 8)

[070428] アメサラサ (amesarasa)
[090925] 夏ノ雨 (natsu no ame)
[120831] イモウトノカタチ (imouto no katachi)
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by deskoh91 »

because that portion of the project is translated by a particular fish who somehow found the lines either translated or original (didnt check) online and just hyperlinked them.
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jesse*
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by jesse* »

So did Haruhi and Tsuruya quote two lines out of each of the Ogura peoms, or were they formatted on just two lines, or what? Because I would love to put the public-domain lines or lines I jiggle around myself in at the very least. It doesn't seem like there has been any significant change to the ninth book in a very long time, and it is a wonderful story, but it is not edited to the standards of the rest of Baka-Tsuki's Haruhi translations yet.
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by Darklor »

There was talk about those poems and poem lines but maybe no one was confident enough (if they are right how they are) to put them into the text itself...
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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jesse*
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by jesse* »

I would. I totally would. I've read the ones the translators' notes pointed to, and it seems like they have a bearing on the plot. One they quoted is titled "Lady Suo," several seem to be authored by Fujiwaras, and of course they're seasonal with all the symbolism that carries with it. I would just like to know what the original script was. If someone has the raws I have the working knowledge of Japanese script to get at least the gist of it across.
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by jesse* »

Still no activation email. Okay, I used the triple threat of Wiktionary, Google Translate, and Japanese Wikipedia to retranslate the first poem, Ogura 61. I should be able to get at the rest soon, but I'm not sure about the last poem that Nagato finishes. It's by Minamoto Toshiyori who wrote Ogura 74 but it's from a different anthology called 百人秀歌, literally collection of a hundred poems by a hundred authors:elegant:hymn. 歌 actually stands for song/chant/praise but I think hymn would fit. Anyway, One Hundred Graceful Hymns does not seem to have an English translation, and if it does it's far removed from the kanji.

Not that obscure Japanese poetry has any direct relationship to the plot, but for the sake of completeness. And I'm having fun.

Ogura Hyakunin Isshu is a telephone directory of the Japanese poets everyone should know about. There are a hundred poems, each by a different author, with each author's name as the title of the poem. They don't seem to be the absolute best, just a broad selection.
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by shichinanatsu »

for the sake of having it here.. i'll be leaving the contents of the links here as well, after which i'll see if i can find literary analyses on them..

#33
Spoiler! :
Image

Ki no Tomonori_____________Ki no Tomonori

Hisakata no________________In the peaceful light
Hikari nodokeki____________Of the ever-shining sun
Haru no hi ni_______________In the days of spring,
Shizu-gokoro naku__________Why do the cherry's new-blown blooms
Hana no chiruran___________Scatter like restless thoughts?
#35
Spoiler! :
Image

Ki no Tsurayuki_________Ki no Tsurayuki

Hito wa isa_____________The depths of the hearts
Kokoro mo shirazu_______Of humankind cannot be known.
Furusato wa____________But in my birthplace
Hana zo mukashi no_____The plum blossoms smell the same
Ka ni nioi keru__________As in the years gone by.
#66
Spoiler! :
Image

Saki no Daisojo Gyoson________Abbot Gyoson

Morotomo ni_________________On a mountain slope,
Aware to omoe_______________Solitary, uncompanioned,
Yama-zakura_________________Stands a cherry tree.
Hana yori hoka ni_____________Except for you, lonely friend,
Shiru hito mo nashi___________To others I am unknown.
#67
Spoiler! :
Image

Suo no Naishi__________Lady Suo

Haru no yo no__________If I lay my head
Yume bakari naru_______Upon his arm in the dark
Tamakura ni___________Of a short spring night,
Kainaku tatan__________This innocent dream pillow
Na koso oshi kere_______Will be the death of my good name.
#07
Spoiler! :
Image

Abe no Nakamaro_________Abe no Nakamaro

Ama no hara_____________When I look up at
Furisake mireba__________The wide-stretched plain of heaven,
Kasuga naru_____________Is the moon the same
Mikasa no yama ni________That rose on Mount Mikasa
Ideshi tsuki kamo_________In the land of Kasuga?
#94
Spoiler! :
Image

Sangi Masatsune_______Fujiwara no Masatsune

Miyoshino no__________From Mount Yoshino
Yama no akikaze_______Blows a chill, autumnal wind.
Sayo fukete___________In the deepening night
Furusato samuku_______The ancient village shivers:
Koromo utsu nari_______Sounds of beating cloth I hear.
雨 (ame) trilogy 8)

[070428] アメサラサ (amesarasa)
[090925] 夏ノ雨 (natsu no ame)
[120831] イモウトノカタチ (imouto no katachi)
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jesse*
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by jesse* »

久方 is a compound read as "hisakata." Online dictionaries define it as "sky, moon."
光 means "light." Also "only." Not sure what "nododeki" is.
春 is "spring" with a secondary meaning of "wanton." 日 is "day" or "sun."
しづ is "shizu." I can't find what that means. 心 means "heart," "soul," or "center." In this context it is pronounced "gokoro," making it a suffix. なく or "naku" means "cry" or "call."心
花 means "flower" or "blossom" or "the best days of your life." Read as "hana." ちるらむ looks like "fall," "scatter," "die nobly," "fade" with some archaic grammer after it. む was read as "n" in this case.

しづ心 probably means "empty heart" to "absent-minded." Assuming 久方 is to mean "sky," and MacCauley was reasonably accurate,

I'll just leave it at that till I can find a translator.
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by jesse+ »

Ki no Tsuruyaki. (o.35)

Human:denotes subject:[prodigy or "to detail?" Could even mean "little."]
Heart/mind:also/too:unaffected by
hometown:denotes subject

flower/blossom/best days:light emphasis, end of sentence:the past:denotes possessive
fragrant/incense:denotes proximity:sweet smell:to kick?

Kick? That's the only thing I'm coming up with for keru. Maybe it's an idiom. I don't know. There is a wealth of meaning lost using this method, though I don't imagine MacCauley kept much anyway.

These people are small
In their hearts, but
Where I am from

The flowers blossomed
To scatter their sweet incense over me

Alternately, the first stanza is:
We so often change
Our hearts grow distant
I remember

When...

Or:
Humans are complicated
Their hearts are unreachable
But where I am from

I think I'll sleep on how to put that. Ideally I would ask a native Japanese speaker how she feels when reading this poem, and take it from there. I guess ideally we would all know Japanese or Tanigawa would write in English, still, anyway,

Tell me what you think. Which stanza should go first, or did I miss the point with all three?
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by jesse+ »

Abbot Gyoson (o.66)

together with a sense of completion:denotes proximity
sadness/pity:and:thought/maybe seems?/sense of being heavy
mountain:cherry

blossom/best days:from/than/except/more:foreign/outside:denotes proximity
comprehend:human:also:without

Of course, by なし "nashi" Abbot Gyoson might mean "pear." It would break the mood though I thought.

So this one's a bit easier, let's try to comprehend and translate a culture we know very little about, shall we?

You and me
Sad thoughts and mountain peaks
A monk and a cherry tree

We share this separation
Absent from the thoughts of our countrymen

Could be better. Again, not posting this until I get a second opinion.

Each others' only friends
Here far from human thoughts

We stand alone together
I could really go for a pear right now

Something of that nature.
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jesse+
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by jesse+ »

Lady Suo (o.67)

I think I like the translation of this one.

spring/wanton:possessive:night:possessive
dream poss. wishful:just about/just barely/only:becomes/succeeds/acts a role
handpillow[it's said together]:denotes proximity

And here it gets difficult.
kainaku tatan
Jisho can't find kainaku. Google translated 立たむ or tatan (because it's a thousand years ago and む mu is pronounced n sometimes) as stand, and grabbed the ka at the beginning of the line to make it say "stand or fall," which is profound for a program.

na koso oshi kere=reputation:surely:regret:can't find it it probably implies wanting something

It's not MacCauley, it's someone else, someone else did o.66 too, and MacCauley's translation is really bad. Whoever it is isn't sourced, so we can use it until someone complains, change it if that happens. It's not like we're printing these. At least I'm not.

Nighttime in spring
Gentle dreams with his hand
As my pillow

It starts here, I must choose
Reputation or regret?

I guess that turned out alright. First stanza could really be worded better, second I had to guess on and probably bears no relation to the original. And it's a lot less sweet and innocent than the University of Virginia's translation.

So far as foreshadowing, this might tell us about Suou Kuyou. All of the IDSE's interfaces seem to have developed personalities, maybe this represents Suou's inner longing for companionship. Maybe the Sky Canopy Domain used this poem as a seed for Suou's brain patterns. Maybe - this one's my favorite - the SCD overheard Haruhi and Tsuruya quoting this poem and used it to name their interface. And they made a girl they hoped would be perfect for sleeping on Kyon's arm on a spring night.
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jesse+
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by jesse+ »

Abe no Nakamaro (o.7)

shichinanatsu already quoted an analysis, here's my less-expert transliteration.

the heavens:possessive:plains (feeling of origins)
[I think it implies a great distance]:looking at it | note: Google translated this as "it is only pretending"
Kasuga [proper noun, the kanji mean spring:sun]:in/becomes

Mikasa [spelled mi-straw hat]:possessive:mountain:denotes proximity
[I will go with "appeared," its root is "to go out," may sound similar to "excuse" (noun)]:moon:[I will use "adds emphasis," the modern use of the term would be "possibly"]

Heaven's field
So distant from my eyes
Like Kasuga.

To be near Mount Mikasa!
Where this same moon shines!

Best I could come up with for the second stanza.
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jesse+
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Re: Ogura Hyakunin Isshu

Post by jesse+ »

One more. Until we find One Hundred Graceful Hymns. In the morning I'll try to see what to put in the chapter. You can analyze this one yourself

Fujiwara no Masatsune (o.94)

Untamed Miyoshi
Down its slopes autumn blows
Night follows

It is cold in my homeland
This skin won't stop shivering

And that's the suckiest translation I've made in my entire two-day history of translation. Please enjoy. Feel free to post these in the chapters, I just may myself, and now we've made Haruhi 9:1 more enjoyable for everyone.
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