Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

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Vaelis
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by Vaelis »

jesse* wrote:As you wish. I improved it to the best of my ability. I was able to compare deskoh's original version and his enhancement while working on my edits, somehow. If you would compare his two versions you would find them as different from each other as mine is.
No it's not the same. And anyway deskoh91 is the translator he can edit it however he wants.
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

Vaelis wrote: No it's not the same. And anyway deskoh91 is the translator he can edit it however he wants.
Wow, completely shut down someone who's trying to help, huh?

As I recall, it's an open wiki: Anyone can edit it however they want.

'S long as deskoh has no problem with jesse's edits, and they both work together to hammer out something that is both accurate AND human-sounding I fail to see the problem.

Or is trying to come out with something halfway professional against Baka-Tsuki's translation policy?
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Vaelis
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by Vaelis »

Kaisos Erranon wrote:As I recall, it's an open wiki: Anyone can edit it however they want.
What are you saying?
Even in the case of official editors they should submit to discussion any major edit before doing it.
I can't believe someone can be a Senior Editor without having read the guidelines and rules. :roll:

And did you even check the wiki before posting here?
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Kaisos Erranon
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by Kaisos Erranon »

Vaelis wrote: What are you saying?
Even in the case of official editors they should submit to discussion any major edit before doing it.
I can't believe someone can be a Senior Editor without having read the guidelines and rules. :roll:

And did you even check the wiki before posting here?
Technically I'm just a mod, though I have done relatively minor edits to the Haruhi project before.

As for discussion, things seemed to be going just fine here, and I don't think deskoh, the OFFICIAL TRANSLATOR, had any problem with it. We're not AnimeSuki, I really don't think we have to follow a ridiculous chain of command to get things done around here.

Also, speaking of the wiki, I didn't happen see your name under "translators" or "editors" on the Haruhi page...

I'll pose the same question as in my previous post, as you seem to be ignoring it: Is trying to come out with something halfway professional against Baka-Tsuki's translation policy?
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Vaelis
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by Vaelis »

Kaisos Erranon wrote:Is trying to come out with something halfway professional against Baka-Tsuki's translation policy?
Who cares about professional or halfway professional, that's a fan translation community.

There are rules and guidelines to follow and Jesse* should follow them.
Jesse*, you can do grammar and spelling edits directly on the wiki but any edit where you change the structure of the sentence should be submit on the talk page of the chapter, one by one (not a whole paragraph or a whole chapter).

This way translators and editors can tell you what's ok and what isn't, while it's not possible when you edit the whole chapter.
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AuraTwilight
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by AuraTwilight »

Who cares about professional or halfway professional, that's a fan translation community.
The READERS care about having a professional quality, thank you very much, as I'm sure the ones putting their hard work and effort into this project.
There are rules and guidelines to follow and Jesse* should follow them.
Guidelines are just that: Guidelines. The official translator, who according to you has absolute say over the matter, doesn't mind what's been done, and Jesse* indeed discussed the changes made. You're being unnecessarily rude, stuffy, and unhelpful. Please cut it out, as you're diverting attention and resources away that could be used to make the subject at hand (the project) better.
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by Fushichou »

THIS. IS. DRAMA.
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by Const2k »

And there goes my attempt of not interfering... *sigh*
For those unfamiliar with issue, we're discussing this change that reduced 75kB text page to 64kB (-15%).

As it was already said, B-T is a fan (light & visual novels) translation community. Not a fan (...) paraphrasing community.
No matter how you look at it, cutting over 9000 symbols (~3 pages of text) out of 75kB (~20 pages) chapter is nowhere near an "enhancement" of translation accuracy. Which is already questionable, I might add, since it's J->C->E re-translation, rather than direct J->E (not even mentioning the fact that most alternative languages' translations are/will be done J->C->E->X way). And it's even beyond usual "literal" vs. "liberal" argue. So if Vaelis didn't beat me to reverting that change, I'd do it myself next day, formal reason being "not properly discussed major edit", referring to both generic and SHnY-specific guidelines.
That said, I do not mind having [s]dumbed down[/s] "Simple English" version of SHnY as kind of "alternative language" for whoever might consider this useful (though I'd advise them dubbed anime instead).

To sum up, major edits must be discussed on chapter's talk page for them to conform B-T guidelines and hence to get a protection from further major changes (like reverting).
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jesse*
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by jesse* »

I did try for translation accuracy, mostly with discrepancies between deskoh's versions. If you had tried to edit that chapter you would have found a large amount of redundant language, and it's that being cut that caused the ten-kilobyte drop. Read it yourself and tell me what I paraphrased and what accuracy I lost. If I found I had lost any necessary information then I would revert it myself or not upload it in the first place.
"Although the inability to prove the theory means it will remain an assumption, this is the most simplistic form to put it. There are many believers in this theory in the 'Organization' as well. Regarding the belief that the source of our powers came from Suzumiya-san, it is something that is wholly agreed on among all members, including myself.”
"That is the simplest way of putting it, but it's still an unprovable hypothesis. Many in the 'Organization' hold this belief, but we all agree that she is the source of our powers.”
I see no arguments against my enhancements except that there's no way you can cut that many bytes and not lose quality. I disagree. If there is an argument of substance against it please bring it up. This is a wiki and we can work together for consensus. My hope was to have a far better version than what I could make on my own.
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Vaelis
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by Vaelis »

And the main problem isn't the quality of your edits but the fact that it's not possible to check/discuss them.
When you edit every sentence of a chapter, no one can check/discuss your edits.
If you want us to "work together" and reach a "consensus" then you should allow us to be able to participate -> you need to submit your changes sentence by sentence (and it's usually done on the talk page of the chapter).
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by quigonkenny »

jesse* wrote:I did try for translation accuracy, mostly with discrepancies between deskoh's versions. If you had tried to edit that chapter you would have found a large amount of redundant language, and it's that being cut that caused the ten-kilobyte drop. Read it yourself and tell me what I paraphrased and what accuracy I lost. If I found I had lost any necessary information then I would revert it myself or not upload it in the first place.
"Although the inability to prove the theory means it will remain an assumption, this is the most simplistic form to put it. There are many believers in this theory in the 'Organization' as well. Regarding the belief that the source of our powers came from Suzumiya-san, it is something that is wholly agreed on among all members, including myself.”
"That is the simplest way of putting it, but it's still an unprovable hypothesis. Many in the 'Organization' hold this belief, but we all agree that she is the source of our powers.”
I see no arguments against my enhancements except that there's no way you can cut that many bytes and not lose quality. I disagree. If there is an argument of substance against it please bring it up. This is a wiki and we can work together for consensus. My hope was to have a far better version than what I could make on my own.
If you see the above as an "enhancement", then we're going to have a hard time convincing you of what the problem is here. The point here is not to draw up a Cliff's Notes version of Haruhi where Itsuki's long-winded explanations are more middle-winded and Kyon doesn't babble as much during his narrations. Those are parts of the style of the series. Go back and read the previous volumes and get a better feel for the flow (or intentional lack thereof) of the series. Hell, buy the official English version of the first volume. They get it.

And like the others said, you can't just kill 14% of the translation by fiat, even if this is a wiki. There needs to be more discussion than the sparse postings here as to how much of Deskoh's "structural grammar" is truly redundant...
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jesse*
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by jesse* »

Those are parts of the style of the series.
Style of the translation.
buy the official English version of the first volume
Used it as a style guide.
The point here is not to draw up a Cliff's Notes version of Haruhi
Never crossed my mind.
And like the others said, you can't just kill 14% of the translation by fiat
That's why I didn't.

I'm not attempting to translate Haruhi into English. I'm attempting to translate deskoh91 into better English. If you want Itsuki to be long-winded go for it. If you want to review the chapter sentence by sentence I'm ready when you are. My goal is not to draw attention to myself or ruin your hard work.
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by deskoh91 »

sorry for revisiting this only after so long!

not taking sides here.

I took a quick look and realised jesse is putting in good work. her correction did make things much more readable and flow. just reverting everything in one clean swoop just seems a little cruel.

but I must say the incessant blabbling on Koizumi's side was challenging for me precisely because I wanted to translate all that incessant blabber properly. to me all the quirks is what made this series unique, and which you can see for yourself in the Chinese versions. I am pretty sure the Japanese version is written more or less that way too.

as for the issue of whether discussions should be done through forums or talk page, I think this is up to the senior mods/editors to decide? I am just a lowly translator :oops:

so thank you for what you did so far, and do go on if you can. I may be a bit overenthusiastic in being literal and I am glad there is check and balance, but please do not allow Haruhi to lose its soul.
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by onizuka-gto »

deskoh91 wrote:sorry for revisiting this only after so long!

not taking sides here.

I took a quick look and realised jesse is putting in good work. her correction did make things much more readable and flow. just reverting everything in one clean swoop just seems a little cruel.

but I must say the incessant blabbling on Koizumi's side was challenging for me precisely because I wanted to translate all that incessant blabber properly. to me all the quirks is what made this series unique, and which you can see for yourself in the Chinese versions. I am pretty sure the Japanese version is written more or less that way too.

as for the issue of whether discussions should be done through forums or talk page, I think this is up to the senior mods/editors to decide? I am just a lowly translator :oops:

so thank you for what you did so far, and do go on if you can. I may be a bit overenthusiastic in being literal and I am glad there is check and balance, but please do not allow Haruhi to lose its soul.

thank you for the input Deskoh, as long as you are fine with it then I have no problems, after all it is your script. :)
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jesse*
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Re: Major Chapter 2 Enhancement

Post by jesse* »

I must admit that I edited the chapter as a whole, and while I actually did try and keep separate voices for Kyoko and friends I didn't even think of Itsuki's paragraphs as being different. Also, sorry for being angry on the internet.
I'll go over my edits and try and breathe any life back into the text that I lost. You - whoever is reading this post - yes you - you can help with that too.
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