Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

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Vote to officially ratify the Proposed Reader Agreement Rules (Wiki) and approve from draft status

Yes - I read the proposed rules and vote to officially approve them
14
82%
No - There is something seriously wrong. I object.
0
No votes
Wait - Please make some minor corrections first. I'll change my vote after it's satisfactory.
3
18%
 
Total votes: 17

Talinnilat
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by Talinnilat »

Not that I'm anyone but I voted 'Wait' after reading one spot:
Do not inquire about the activity status of a translation project.
Perhaps it's needlessly pedantic but could it be "Do not inquire about the activity status of a translation project unless you are a translator pffering to join it."?

I've had a few people ask on the Ore no Nounai thread and I'd mention they are welcome to translate a section. I was 100% serious in case they wanted to help. I'd rather spell it out than risk one possible translator turning away rather than ask a question.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by victorrama »

I agree with Talin on that point. Since sometimes a translator just gone MIA. Maybe add this

Do not inquire about the activity status of a translation project. + unless there's no update for x weeks(?).

But only asking is it still getting worked on. Not when it will be done.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by Mystes »

I'd say you can ask a project status after 6 weeks of inactivity or so. But the best idea would be to indicate on the project page whether it's stalled or not.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by cloudii »

victorrama wrote:I agree with Talin on that point. Since sometimes a translator just gone MIA. Maybe add this

Do not inquire about the activity status of a translation project. + unless there's no update for x weeks(?).

But only asking is it still getting worked on. Not when it will be done.
Hm... I had that particular rule there because it was adopted from the Facebook rules. For the most part, any post that goes along the lines of: "Is Sakurasou still being translated?" are denied by the facebook admins. IDK if we want to carry that through here, too.

TBH, the correct response is that no one knows. Actually, only the original translator knows, but if the translator is MIA, you're not going to get a response by posting on the talk page of that translator. ;D So what's the point? You're only going to get responses from active translators who say they are indeed working on it (in other words, bothering the translators).

You end up seeing inquiries like: "Is DAL Volume 7 being translated? Why was that volumed skipped?" "Is Baka Test 12 being translated?" "Spyro, are you translating OreGairu Volume 1?"

99% of the time, these questions come simply because the reader didn't look at the registration page, or the history to check how long ago the last update came. (If there hasn't been an update in a year... it's probably not being worked on. *shrugs*). I've even seen cases where a reader will ask even though the project is clearly tagged with "stalled", or there's not a single "Active Translator" in the staff section.

Imo, it can get very annoying for a translator. Readers can be demanding and tiring. Rules get ignored enough so much already, I don't even want to vaguely give a situation "when it's okay to bother a translator because there's been no update in 6 weeks." Some translators are very sensitive about these subject. I don't even want to know how many times Teh Ping gets inquiries about Baka-Test every month.

Unless some more translators state that they're okay with relaxing the rules for the sake of the readers, I don't think I'm going to change what's written with regards to that, right now. I could be wrong though.
Talinnilat wrote:Not that I'm anyone but I voted 'Wait' after reading one spot:
Do not inquire about the activity status of a translation project.
Perhaps it's needlessly pedantic but could it be "Do not inquire about the activity status of a translation project unless you are a translator pffering to join it."?

I've had a few people ask on the Ore no Nounai thread and I'd mention they are welcome to translate a section. I was 100% serious in case they wanted to help. I'd rather spell it out than risk one possible translator turning away rather than ask a question.
But yes, Talin, I've specified that it's okay to inquire if you're a translator. That's a clarification that is understandable. -- Updated
Kira0802 wrote:I'd say you can ask a project status after 6 weeks of inactivity or so. But the best idea would be to indicate on the project page whether it's stalled or not.
Practically, I think the 6 week thing is okay, but as I said before, I'd really prefer it if the rules requested that readers do not ask. Translators are busy enough. We don't need to create a situation encouraging readers to ask translators the status of their projects (after X weeks).

Instead, I can offer to place information in Help Pages/FAQ (not the rules) helping readers address their questions:
  • Where they can find a list of the most recent updates on Baka-Tsuki.
  • Where they can find out the last time a project was updated.
  • How to tell if a translation is still being continued or not.
  • Etc.
---------

REMINDER: If you vote, please leave a comment saying what you voted for. This is not a secret ballot.

As of right now, I know(?) Talin and Victor have voted for wait. IDK who is the third person who voted for wait (it'd be great if you could name yourself.)
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by chancs »

Thanks cloudi for taking the initiative for this.

I have a suggestion for the below:
Requirements
At least one volume of the series must be fully translated.
OR: At least one full chapter of the series is fully translated AND an active translator expects he/she is capable of completing one volume in the foreseeable future.
This is from the ' New Project Start Up: Step 3' for the approval to full project.

For the second part, there is no surety that the translator will be finishing/will be able to finish the volume when the project gets the approval just after posting one chapter. (Will there be distinction between prologue/epilogue/chapter...? ).

Also, a volume may contain less or more no. of chapters. Some series may have, say, 10 chapters; other series may have 5 to 6 chapters in a volume (I am not considering no. of pages). In addition, the TL will depend on the speed of TLr. (You know much better about this than me.)

My suggestion is that instead of a 'complete volume' or a 'single chapter with the promise to translate further', let's make it a 'minimum x chapters'. (I am with minimum 3 chapters).

Adv. according to me:

1) The project will not remain in the 'Pending Authorization' section for longer time.
2) Readers will have more chapters to read which could help the series in gaining popularity. (A booster for TLr).
3) The new project will not look idle on the BT-Main Page index if for some reason the TLs stops just after the start.
4) Attract more contributing members. (conditional)

Disadv. .... let others say.

P.S: better to remove the 'active' word. The TLr introducing the series may or may not be proficient with TLs.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by Talinnilat »

Thank you Cloud. I changed my vote to yes.
Kira0802 wrote:I'd say you can ask a project status after 6 weeks of inactivity or so. But the best idea would be to indicate on the project page whether it's stalled or not.
I'm not sure how doable that is unless an admin wanted to browse all the projects once every week or two and manually mark them. Seems like a lot of work for something a reader could find out from looking at the history. This is getting off topic but is there a way of showing the changelog of the main page and all sub pages on the main page? (Don't know much about wiki's). Like below the main pages update section is one automatically showing the last 5 changes of the main page or chapters?

Btw the new front page looks really good, much more readable.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by Misogi »

Voted "Yes".
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by cloudii »

@Chancs: I'll keep your comments in mind when we put up that page for ratification, but I won't address them now. ;D I'm sure we'll get plenty of time to debate it when we ratify that particular page.

Here's a PM I got from Victorrama:
victorrama wrote:Somehow I can't reply to that thread anymore O.o
And I wanted to change my vote from wait to agree. Maybe you can quote my PM here. Maybe I actually don't have the authority to reply in that thread?

I agree with the FAQ section. And yeah I get your point. Some of those questions are indeed annoying. Well now it's cleared I'm completely agree with the rules.
O.O;;;;; Well, anyways. Still don't know who were the other individuals who voted for Wait (there should be 2 right now).

I know Talin and Victor have changed their votes, and I'm assuming Kira and Denormative have too (since I remember the number of waits decreasing after I fixed the things they took issue with). But that leaves 2 "waits" unaccounted for...

If the people who voted for "wait" don't speak up, can we consider this particular rule passed at 13 yes-votes (and zero no-votes)? (picking arbitrary numbers, lol) I'll post the next set of rules after we ratify this set.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by cloudii »

Never mind what I just said above.
  • As of April 2nd, 11:51 GMT, 2014, Simon has approved the ratification of the Reader Agreement Rules with 11 in favor, 2 waiting, and 0 objections.
The Wiki page is now protected, and I (cloud), can't even edit it anymore. xD

The rule ratification is now formally closed, and these rules are official, effective immediately.

I'll leave the thread unlocked in case anyone has questions or would like to take issue with the Reader Agreement again in the future.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by Mystes »

Talinnilat wrote: I'm not sure how doable that is unless an admin wanted to browse all the projects once every week or two and manually mark them. Seems like a lot of work for something a reader could find out from looking at the history. This is getting off topic but is there a way of showing the changelog of the main page and all sub pages on the main page? (Don't know much about wiki's). Like below the main pages update section is one automatically showing the last 5 changes of the main page or chapters?
While it does sound hard in theory, do not forget that on the sidebar, a majority is inactive and will probably stay so. The active list is about 5-25 novels (rough estimate), which isn't that of a pain.


I agree with "Do not ask when new translations of chapters will be released."

But I don't think "Do not inquire about the activity status of a translation project unless you are a translator looking to join the project." is quite appropriate. It would make much more sense if it was the opposite scenario: A reader can reasonably ask if a project is still active after the translator is unseen for a while, and a potential translator, since the latter must sign up in the registration page anyway, doesn't really need to ask if a project is active since he/she will make it so.

Anyway, it's not that important to change my vote to total opposition, and it is not a short-term issue.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by Cthaeh »

Talinnilat wrote: This is getting off topic but is there a way of showing the changelog of the main page and all sub pages on the main page? (Don't know much about wiki's). Like below the main pages update section is one automatically showing the last 5 changes of the main page or chapters?
This example is pretty much what you're asking about, with the exception that it doesn't show the changes to the project page itself, only pages linked from the project page. I find it useful, and I have a link on my favorites bar for the couple of projects that I edit (hence that particular example). The only annoying thing I haven't found a way to do is look up any changes to the talk pages.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by cloudii »

Sure. I can't edit that rule page myself anymore since Simon already locked it.

However, can I get a second voice (preferably a translator) in concordance with Kira? If people agree, I think it's easier to just delete the rule:
Do not inquire about the activity status of a translation project unless you are a translator looking to join the project.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by Misogi »

"Do not inquire about the activity status of an active translation project."

It may work that way.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by cloudii »

Okay, look's like we're split. Can we agree that the winning vote gets to be official (even if there still continues to be disagreement)?

Vote:
  • Do not inquire about activity - 0 votes
  • Do not inquire about activity unless you are translator - 0 votes
  • Remove all references to this rule - 0 votes
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Re: Rule Ratification: Reader Agreement (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by Misogi »

First option. Adding "active" will allow some exceptions to the rule.
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