Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.0

Discuss all topics related to the existing rules and policies

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Vote to officially ratify the New Project Startup Guidelines (Wiki) and approve from draft status

Yes - I read the proposed rules and vote to officially approve them
14
82%
No - There is something seriously wrong. I object.
2
12%
Wait - Please make some minor corrections first. I'll change my vote after it's satisfactory.
1
6%
 
Total votes: 17

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Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by cloudii »

  • As of April 8nd, 21:23 GMT, 2014, Supervisor Simon has approved the ratification of the New Project Startup Guideline with 14 in favor, 0 waiting, and 2 objections.

    These rules are now officially passed. The wiki page is protected from all changes.
---------

Ready? I'm expecting the debates for these rules to get slightly more intense.

For this poll, vote ONLY on the:
  • Baka-Tsuki New Project Startup Guidelines

    Please consider these rules independently of the other rules that are still in draft stage.
    Also, assume the broken links lead to perfectly ideal and satisfactory pages. ;)
What was decided at Baka-Tsuki General Meeting
1). Teaser tag is the default tag to be put on new project
2). When the teaser reaches the requirements for full project, translator tags Pending
3). Oni/DarkoNeko/Vaelis (or any other supervisor) approve

Vote: In Favor (13) - Not in Favor (0)
Other Interesting Changes of Note:

1). I inverted the wording order of the requirements for Full Project Approval. This is to discourage the post-1-chapter-and-vanish-translators who crowd our sidebar with inactive projects. Otherwise, it's actually identical to the policy we run by currently. It may look different, but it's no change except wording.

2). I realized that with the new system that was voted in, there's actually no reason to have an ATP template. Why put a warning/alert on a project that just met the requirements? It's easier just to tag the pending category.

3). To compromise, I've combined the teaser tag with the former role of ATP. By putting a Teaser Template (not a category), it puts the little warning box.

------------

If you vote, please leave a comment saying what you voted for. This is not a secret ballot.

This is simply so we don't get stumped if 5 trolling readers people vote "no" or something. FYI, the votes are changeable.
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by cloudii »

chancs wrote:Thanks cloudi for taking the initiative for this.

I have a suggestion for the below:
Requirements
At least one volume of the series must be fully translated.
OR: At least one full chapter of the series is fully translated AND an active translator expects he/she is capable of completing one volume in the foreseeable future.
This is from the ' New Project Start Up: Step 3' for the approval to full project.

For the second part, there is no surety that the translator will be finishing/will be able to finish the volume when the project gets the approval just after posting one chapter. (Will there be distinction between prologue/epilogue/chapter...? ).

Also, a volume may contain less or more no. of chapters. Some series may have, say, 10 chapters; other series may have 5 to 6 chapters in a volume (I am not considering no. of pages). In addition, the TL will depend on the speed of TLr. (You know much better about this than me.)
Can I clarify what you want?

Are you saying you want stricter minimum requirements so that translators are less likely to become inactive after posting one chapter?
chancs wrote: My suggestion is that instead of a 'complete volume' or a 'single chapter with the promise to translate further', let's make it a 'minimum x chapters'. (I am with minimum 3 chapters).
I remember Zzhk bringing this point up before. The issue is, what do we do if an entire light novel volume is 1 chapter? Or two chapters (My mini-project, Watashitachi no Tamura-kun, is like that)? In those situations, we'd be asking them to translate a minimum 200-300 pages. xD

If we really wanted to be technical, it would be more fair to give a page count. Or percentage.
chancs wrote: Adv. according to me:

1) The project will not remain in the 'Pending Authorization' section for longer time.
2) Readers will have more chapters to read which could help the series in gaining popularity. (A booster for TLr).
3) The new project will not look idle on the BT-Main Page index if for some reason the TLs stops just after the start.
4) Attract more contributing members. (conditional)

Disadv. .... let others say.

P.S: better to remove the 'active' word. The TLr introducing the series may or may not be proficient with TLs.
1). New projects will no longer be in Pending Authorization. They will go directly to Teaser (English) or whatever equivalent.

Other points are valid, I guess. Any other opinions?
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by bicube »

Global'd, and thanks cloud for being motivated/masochistic enough to go through with these changes. :D

More on topic: I agree that a certain percentage of a novel should be translated and promised to have the first volume done to be considered a full project. Even though it will take longer and will be more work for the translator(s), it will help prevent having projects with non-finished volumes on the sidebar.

I think there can be some confusion on the requirements of making a petition though. It says that petitioning is optional, but the next bullet point says that, "All new requests must have a discussion thread opened..." It might also be helpful to explain the importance or benefits of having a petition thread on the forum as well.
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by victorrama »

Voted for wait

Requirements
At least one volume of the series must be fully translated.
OR: At least one full chapter of the series is fully translated AND an active translator expects he/she is capable of
completing one volume in the foreseeable future .

regarding this maybe just leave it :

At least one volume of the series must be fully translated.
it simplify things. dividing by chapter / page count / completion percentage is way too complicated. this is only my opinion though.
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by cloudii »

victorrama wrote:Voted for wait

Requirements
At least one volume of the series must be fully translated.
OR: At least one full chapter of the series is fully translated AND an active translator expects he/she is capable of
completing one volume in the foreseeable future .

regarding this maybe just leave it :

At least one volume of the series must be fully translated.
it simplify things. dividing by chapter / page count / completion percentage is way too complicated. this is only my opinion though.
Oh my. xD I think a lot of people will be split on this. Here's a question for all future respondents of this thread:

Vote: What should be the minimum requirements for full project approval? You must give a concrete number of chapters/pages/percentage.

By the way, I vote for the simplest 1-volume option. xD Doesn't hurt to keep things in Teaser Category for longer.
  • 1 volume OR 1 chapter (+activity) - 0 votes
  • 3 chapters ONLY - 1 vote
  • 1 volume ONLY - 2 votes
bicube wrote:I think there can be some confusion on the requirements of making a petition though. It says that petitioning is optional, but the next bullet point says that, "All new requests must have a discussion thread opened..." It might also be helpful to explain the importance or benefits of having a petition thread on the forum as well.
I'll clarify it later today when I have more time. But we all agree that the first step technically is optional, right?
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by chancs »

1). New projects will no longer be in Pending Authorization. They will go directly to Teaser (English) or whatever equivalent.
By Pendng. Auth. I meant [[Category:Pending Authorisation]] for full project approval. (just to clarify)
The issue is, what do we do if an entire light novel volume is 1 chapter? Or two chapters (My mini-project, Watashitachi no Tamura-kun, is like that)? In those situations, we'd be asking them to translate a minimum 200-300 pages.
Now that's some news for me.

Coming to the point, I agree with bicube's view of complete volume condition and victorrama's views about the the complications for %completion. Reflecting on cloud's comment above, I take back my suggestion for the 'minimum x chapters' condition and support the 'one volume' condition, with removal of ' one chapter with a promise' condition.

----------

Another query:

Do we really need to have a separate Teaser Feedback (TF) and Future Project Suggestions (FPS) thread?

My views ( Future Project as in a Full Project in the future):

Having a more concentrated views of the general public. (If there is teaser feedback+future project combined thread)
Feedback[edit]
If you enjoyed the teaser, why don't you rate it in the Teaser Feedback Thread (link) or discuss it in the forum (FPS link).
Though the above might not be a good example, but, why the need for two separate threads? For the project suggestions a request/post/thread is made in the FPS. When a teaser is created for the series, the feedback thread is linked to TF. And so the thread made in the FPS is not referenced. (Though it is moved to the Auxiliary Brigade (AB) when the project is approved). Either way, one of the two guys are left out at different stages :lol: :P

I suggest for a combined thread where there will be a concentrated view of the public starting with why the series should be translated and continuing with what is their opinion of the current translation. So at the later stage when the project is moved to AB everything is there.... Ummm, more like how you find it on other sites.

In short
Step 2: Create a Teaser Feedback Thread in the forums, giving the following poll options ----> Proposal for Removal
Step 1: All new requests must have a discussion thread opened in the Future Project Suggestions ----> Proposal for Mandatory
My vote being to ' wait' , thanks all for reading my above mess 8) :lol:
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by Misogi »

I haven't voted for now. There's a lot of corrections that I propose.
Reminder: Any new translation project must be UNLICENSED by publishers in the corresponding Baka-Tsuki language. You must clearly show that this is true. Failure to do so will result in the deletion of the offending translations.
I'd rather use the "lack of evidence" argument, as it's easier to prove the license than its absence. "It should be impossible to find any license confirmation of the series."
"Yes"
"I might try translating this"
"Not Really (Please give a reason)"
"No (Please give a reason)"
Order changed (lazy people will put the wrong option).
At least one volume of the series must be fully translated.
OR: At least one full chapter of the series is fully translated AND an active translator expects he/she is capable of completing one volume in the foreseeable future.
I propose:
One volume (or almost) of the series must be fully translated.
However, for particular cases (one-shots, active translators...), the requirements may be lower.

Reasons:
- In case we have muliple translators working on different volumes, if there's the equivalent of one volume translated, then it may be ok.
- The particular case is vague to statute case by case.
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by Darklor »

I voted I object.

I still think that there should be a difference between a real teaser and a startup project. Also I dont think that it isnt the best idea to rise requirements for full project too high. I fear it could possible translators scare away.

I also think that "Project Petitioning" shouldnt be part of the rules for a new project, but the existence of a project thread in the forum should be part of the requirements. This can be either a thread in the Suggestions section or a feedback thread. Or regarding the changes maybe there should be a new section in the forum named startup projects (where it would need a thread).

@Chancs
There is a reason for the teaser feedback section. It has a different purpose than the suggestion section. It has also a different poll. Also previously there was a difference between a new project and a teaser project. Only recenty it was used as a startpoint for a new project. It was even a thing I did suggest to new translators especially since the requirements were lower, but not all teaser projects were created with the intention of an upgrade.
Please don't mind my bad english since I'm german.

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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by cloudii »

Darklor wrote:I voted I object.

I still think that there should be a difference between a real teaser and a startup project. Also I dont think that it isnt the best idea to rise requirements for full project too high. I fear it could possible translators scare away.
I was hoping that we could take the what was decided at the Official Meeting as accepted already, since both Oni and TLG have reviewed them. Your disagreement is welcome, but please understand that there are 13 votes in the opposite direction. ^^;;
  • 1). Teaser tag is the default tag to be put on new project
    2). When the teaser reaches the requirements for full project, translator tags Pending
    3). Oni/DarkoNeko/Vaelis (or any other supervisor) approve

    Vote: In Favor (13) - Not in Favor (0)
Here are several reasons (as mentioned at the meeting) why it doesn't make sense to differentiate between Teasers and New Startups anymore:
  • In practice nowadays, all translators tag "Teaser" for their new project, regardless if they intend or don't intend to continue translating.
  • Are you implying that we should enforce the un-tagging of "Teaser" from the active new projects?
  • The only way for a new project to get visibility on the sidebar is to be tagged in a category (the Teaser Project Category). Otherwise, new project pages will never be noticed if they remain uncategorized.
  • Is there really that much of a difference between a "Teaser" and a "New Startup"? Yes, I know Teaser is supposed to mean "no intentions to continue", but is it really worth having another category for just that? Simpler rules are always better, and we have a huge opportunity to simplify rules right now.
Also, for your last point Darklor, could you give a concrete requirement? It doesn't really help us when you say "don't raise the requirements too high." Either propose a rule suggestion or vote for an existing one. Otherwise, I can't do anything. xD
Misogi wrote: I'd rather use the "lack of evidence" argument, as it's easier to prove the license than its absence. "It should be impossible to find any license confirmation of the series."
Done. Actually, I removed half of the sentence. It just makes it easier. Is that good?
Misogi wrote: Order changed (lazy people will put the wrong option).
Done.
Bicube wrote: I think there can be some confusion on the requirements of making a petition though. It says that petitioning is optional, but the next bullet point says that, "All new requests must have a discussion thread opened..." It might also be helpful to explain the importance or benefits of having a petition thread on the forum as well.
Done.

-----------
Votes
Vote: What should be the minimum requirements for full project approval? You must give a concrete number of chapters/pages/percentage.
  • 1 volume OR 1 chapter (+activity) - 0 votes
  • 1 volume ONLY - 3 votes
  • 1 volume (approximately), but lower in special circumstances - 1 votes
Couldn't figure out where to put Darklor @__@;;;

Vote: What do we do with the Forum Feedback Threads?
  • Keep as is (Project Suggestion is optional) - 0 votes
  • Remove mention of Project Suggestion Poll from rules - 1 votes
  • Chanc's suggestion(?) - 1 votes
(I personally don't care, as a translator. Don't even check the polls. xD) Also, I don't really understand Chanc's proposal. May need to read it more carefully later.
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by Talinnilat »

I think there should be a difference in categories of Teasers that are finished and new projects that might continue. But, again I see it as potentially a lot of admin work to review it all regularly. And if they are continuing then they will hit the pending tag/full project tag fairly soon.

I like the clarity in everything else and wish it had been written that way months ago when I was confused. :)

One thing, can the headers of these be updated when this vote is completed?
http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... _(English)
http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... horisation

The Teaser one should explain what the teasers are for readers. There's absolutely nothing there now. Something like 'These novels fall into 2 categories, 1) new projects that haven't completed a minimum size, 2) teasers offered by translators in the past to generate interest or showcase an interesting novel'"

And the Pending project section's text is mostly 'scary' and has no information for readers like 'These are ongoing projects that will be moved to the left bar if they meet the standards, or moved to Teasers if judged to be abandoned', or something.
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by cloudii »

Talinnilat wrote:I think there should be a difference in categories of Teasers that are finished and new projects that might continue. But, again I see it as potentially a lot of admin work to review it all regularly. And if they are continuing then they will hit the pending tag/full project tag fairly soon.
I'm personally still opposed. xD I've actually never seen a good argument for why "Teasers" (with no TL intending to continue) should be separated from a "New Project" (TL intends to continue). I'd be very enlightened if someone could explain. :3

Here's my view. Suppose, hypothetically, that we had two tags: "New Project" and "Teaser". Both of these projects get approved automatically to "Full Project" after X chapters are translated.

Here's the administrative nightmare if we try to distinguish between the two, assuming translators somehow categorize their projects correctly and don't automatically put their projects in teaser (currently on the Wiki, most translators voluntarily categorize their projects as teaser, regardless of their future intent, anyways):
  1. New translator (never worked on BT before) starts a "New Project", thinking he'll be an epic translator and will translate super fast.
  2. Turns out translating was harder than he thought. Translator takes a break..........
  3. 3 months later... only 33% of chapter one is completed.
  4. Now what? Do we recategorize it to Teaser because it looks like the TL is gone?
  1. Inverse situation. Translator creates a "teaser" thinking he'll never work on it again.
  2. 3 months later, a new translator joins the project.
  3. Now what? Do we recategorize it to "New Project" and remove the "Teaser" tag because there's an active TL again?
Why any new translator wouldn't want to tag their new project as "New Project":
  1. 95% of "Non-Full-Projects" are teasers that aren't actively being translated right now. These projects are all in the same category (~70).
  2. Since I'm an active translator intending to continue, I wouldn't be allowed to tag my project as a "Teaser".
  3. I'd be forced to tag my project as a "New Project"
  4. However, the "New Project" category on the Wiki will always be tiny. Max 3-4 projects, since they must be new AND have an active TL.
  5. Readers will never check that category, IMO. They're lazy and only check 1 or 2 places. Right now, 99% readers only check sidebar and Category:Teaser. I have never heard of a reader that regularly checks Pending Authorisation or the other small categories.
  6. My point: My translations will never be read (and readers won't find it) if it's in the "New Project" Category.
In short, that's why I'm so opposed to having a separate category distinction for "Teasers" and "New Projects". Fewer categories are better. IMO, readers don't care if a New Project is active or inactive. All they know is that "Teasers" and "New Projects" don't have very much translated. Otherwise, they're practically the same thing.

In general, I see nothing wrong with having a huge list of teasers and new projects. All that really matters is that the Full Project Category be populated with projects that at least have enough translations so that a reader can sit down a read a story. One volume is a story, because one volume is a self-contained work. One prologue and one chapter (a stalled project) is not a contained story, and as a reader I'd be frustrated to see it along with the Full Projects. It's like watching a quarter of a movie and being forced to stop in the middle.

As was pointed out long ago, we have more than enough Full Projects. Our sidebar is overflowing. Can't we at least cut out items that don't have one volume completed, as suggested by Cthaeh here. Random quote to support this effort:
cautr wrote:If a one volume rule already scares off translators, then they simply don't qualify for TLing a full project.
@Darklor: I'm in the party that believes "quantity of full projects" is not better than "quality of full projects". We already have a good number of Full Projects, and I'd rather raise the requirements and see more dedicated translators on full projects who have the ability to finish at least a volume, than have 200 "Full Projects" that don't have a complete volume and are primarily populated by translators who find translating a 1-2 chapters too hard.

The capability of a translator to finish a volume, imo, is an excellent metric for whether they will continue the project further in the future.
Talinnilat wrote: I like the clarity in everything else and wish it had been written that way months ago when I was confused. :)

One thing, can the headers of these be updated when this vote is completed?
http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... _(English)
http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... horisation

The Teaser one should explain what the teasers are for readers. There's absolutely nothing there now. Something like 'These novels fall into 2 categories, 1) new projects that haven't completed a minimum size, 2) teasers offered by translators in the past to generate interest or showcase an interesting novel'"

And the Pending project section's text is mostly 'scary' and has no information for readers like 'These are ongoing projects that will be moved to the left bar if they meet the standards, or moved to Teasers if judged to be abandoned', or something.
Added some text to the "Teaser" category for now. We'll deal with the Pending authorization one after this page is approved.
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by Talinnilat »

I understand the admin work for a possibility like that, which is why I just mentioned it not pushed why it should be done.

Thanks for adding some text to the Teasers. I'll also post a thought on the Cthaeh thread though it hasn't been active in a while to avoid distracting this thread.
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by Cthaeh »

+1 vote for one volume only. Cloud post a couple above mine explains most of the reasons (I like basing it on results, not intent which can change).

With regards to teaser vs new project, wanting to make the active new projects more visible is a valid concern, but I also don't want them to be in a small category by themselves. I think that Cloud's efforts in posting recent updates would help offset that somewhat, as it shows readers what is being actively updated.

Also, the two threads, one in Future Project Suggestion and one Teaser, for a single series is my biggest pet peeve of the BT forums. I've said it before, but I think a series should only have a single thread that gets moved, or the old thread should be locked (and things should go FPS -> Teaser -> Aux). But because I've said it before, I already know that not everyone agrees with me.
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by victorrama »

The Teaser one should explain what the teasers are for readers. There's absolutely nothing there now.
Something like 'These novels fall into 2 categories, 1) new projects that haven't completed a minimum
size, 2) teasers offered by translators in the past to generate interest or showcase an interesting novel'"

I just hope we cam clear the 'minimum size' issue first. for the thread of FPS and teaser wouldn't it be better to discuss it later? though if we do....
Spoiler! :
in my opinion FPS and teaser should be completely separate existence. fps is : a thread where anyone who found an interesting LN, with illus / not with a brief summary of it and post it. in hope of anyone will want to translate it in the 'FUTURE'.

and if someone interested in it and actually translating it. he have the right to ask for admin to MOVE the thread to teaser. BUT there should be at least some translation done in the wiki and the LN still fall in the teaser category ( for now i assume it means less than 1 volume TLed).

and when the translation reach 1 volume it got pending project ( means that it wait for approval to be full project) at the wiki. and when it got the approval it went to full project or ongoing(?) at the wiki. by then it's time to move the project to AUX

sorry for the long post
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Re: Rule Ratification: New Project Startup (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by Mystes »

I object to this part:
OR: At least one full chapter of the series is fully translated AND an active translator expects he/she is capable of completing one volume in the foreseeable future.
It needs to be removed. It leaves so much up to interpretation...
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