Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.0

Discuss all topics related to the existing rules and policies

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Vote to officially ratify the Project Conventions (Wiki) and approve from draft status

Yes - I read the proposed rules and vote to officially approve them
17
89%
No - There is something seriously wrong. I object.
0
No votes
Wait - Please make some minor corrections first. I'll change my vote after it's satisfactory.
2
11%
 
Total votes: 19

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Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.0

Post by cloudii »

For this poll, vote ONLY on the:
  • Baka-Tsuki Default Project Conventions

    Please consider these rules independently of the other rules that are still in draft stage.
    Also, assume the broken links lead to perfectly ideal and satisfactory pages. ;)
Little Introduction

First of all, these are half of the rules for contributors. The other half is at Baka-Tsuki Contributor Agreement. Why the split?
  • The Contributor Agreement describes GLOBAL RULES (kind of like a Constitution. Can't ever be violated or changed by anyone.)
  • The Project Conventions describes Project-Specific rules. These rules can be customized by each Translation Project on Baka-Tsuki.
The primary individual who has the authority to customize rules for each specific Translation Project is the Project Manager.

The Default Project Conventions page describes the DEFAULT guidelines/rules for all translation projects. In other words, unless the project manager has clearly stated something contrary (ie: all translations to be in British English), these are the guidelines that all projects should follow by default.

Since these are default conventions, if you take issue with a certain item in this page, you can always modify the rules for your particular project. However, please take into consideration what we want our "defaults" to be.

Important!

This conventions page will replace the current Format Guideline. Stuff in the original format guideline more along the lines of (how-to-use-wikicode) will be split to a separate page.

------------

If you vote, please leave a comment saying what you voted for. This is not a secret ballot.

This is simply so we don't get stumped if 5 trolling readers people vote "no" or something. FYI, the votes are changeable.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by chancs »

I am with all yes.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by rydenius »

4). A Translator may register for no more than ONE VOLUME of chapters at a time on the Project
This is to ensure translators do not sign up and reserve more chapters than they can chew.
This seems a bit vague. One volume worth of chapters spread across multiple volumes? Or is the intent: may only register for multiple chapters within the one volume that the Translator is currently working on?

Personally I think the first case would be odd to allow. Though I have done something similar since I had already completed translations on chapters in other volumes than the one I was currently working on (at the time I joined Baka-Tsuki), and registered those chapters to indicate that I was actively in the process of quickly editing/revising them prior to submission. So it was a one time thing for me and only lasted for a period of about a week or two.

In fact I still have partially completed chapters for both those volumes that I'm not currently working on, that I have not registered or posted, because I don't want to discourage another translator from taking them up while I'm busy working on the volume I'm currently working (it could be months/years before I get back to them at my current pace). So I'm not against having it be explicit that a contributor only have chapters within one volume (actively) registered at a time. (It may also encourage contributors to work toward completing a volume instead of jumping around.)

The only other major case where I can think of it being useful for a Translator(?)/Contributor to register across volumes, would be if they were posting work (with permission) from outside translators. But since such cases would likely be the exception rather than the rule, I'm not sure it merits an allowance in the *default* Project Conventions -- as the Project Manager could make special allowances for his or her particular project, right? Also would they be classified as Translators, Editors, or some other special type of contributor? Would that even apply to this section?

Additionally, with the exception of proven prolific translators, doesn't an entire "volume" seems like a lot to allow for active registration at a time? The argument for it would be to promote consistency and maybe some translators won't undertake a volume if other chapters in a volume might be done by other translators, but... :?
3). Editors are REQUIRED to contact the Project Staff for Major Edits
Major Edits include any edits that change the interpretable meaning of the sentence.
Editors should contact Project Staff to have a translator check over the new sentence.
If in doubt (when it's ambiguous), contact a translator just to be safe.
Should this section (and #7 and #8 as well) have some kind of note about cases in which the project is stalled or there is no Project Manager. Maybe something along the lines of contacting a Supervisor?
Here is the recommended template: Template:Incomplete.
Yay for Incomplete templates. I'm glad to see a formal protocol for that. Should there be anything formalized about the chapter listing on the overview page? For example: chapter name (1/5) or chapter name (20%). Is that something we want to avoid in general because of the Android app? So far I haven't seen any problems with it breaking the app for the project I'm working on. (Hmm... that's sounds like it might be better located in the Overview guidelines, but chapter updates are noted here under #12, so it might fit there.)

Also are there other conventions that should be added to make pages more friendly to the Android app?
Last edited by rydenius on Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: grammar, minor edits for clarity
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by denormative »

rydenius wrote:
Here is the recommended template: Template:Incomplete.
Yay for Incomplete templates. I'm glad to see a formal protocol for that. Should there be anything formalized about the chapter listing on the overview page? For example: chapter name (1/5) or chapter name (20%). Is that something we want to avoid in general because of the Android app? So far I haven't seen any problems with it breaking the app for the project I'm working on. (Hmm... that's sounds like it might be better located in the Overview guidelines, but chapter updates are noted here under #12, so it might fit there.)
I'd rather not have a requirement to alter the 'main page' with a '(incomplete)' or something after the chapter title. If the user is curious enough they can click the link, or follow the Recent Changes page; if they're just going to read that chapter after reading the previous then they'll find out it's incomplete soon enough when the page loads. Extra busywork (and forgetting to add/remove the tag) isn't something I'd want to encourage.
rydenius wrote:Also are there other conventions that should be added to make pages more friendly to the Android app?
Only things I can think of that would help would be standardised 'MainPage's, but they're mostly ok at the moment I think.

If wikimedia's category api was actually good (rather than being exceedingly simple), we could tag pages properly with multiple tags so the app could just automatically generate everything from queries rather then having to parse pages, but that's not really possible at the moment. (Seriously life would be so much less painful if mediawiki had something like a sql-ish 'select' api. :( )
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by Misogi »

I voted Wait.
5). A Maximum of TWO Translators May Be Simultaneously Registered on a Volume
This is to preserve similar writing style and translation style across a single story arc.
->
5). A Maximum of TWO Active Translators may be Simultaneously registered on a Volume
This is to preserve similar writing style and translation style across a single story arc.
Exceptions: Side stories and episodic series.
Correction wrote:If he/she does not respond in TWO WEEKS and the Project Manager does not protest, assume the reservation has expired.
Add the text: "- Completed" next to your username in the Registration Page.
->
Add the text: "Completed" next to your username in the Registration Page.
Correction wrote:Unless otherwise stated, Baka-Tsuki translations use romanized Japanese honorifics:
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by Cthaeh »

If any of this ends up requiring that the default text at the top of registration pages be updated, it would probably be a good idea to make a single page/template to get transcluded into the top of registration pages. That way any future changes or updates would only need to made once.

Default Verb Tenses: Narrative Tenses
I don't know that it's really necessary to include the information about tenses in this guideline. While I personally only read things in past tense narration, present tense isn't really wrong. Project managers still have the ability to change it for their project even though that line is there, so it's not really a big issue if it stays.
6). If an apparently Inactive Translator occupies a registration slot that you want, contact them and the Project Manager
If he/she does not respond in TWO WEEKS and the Project Manager does not protest, assume the reservation is expired.
Two weeks seems pretty short to me. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to be out of contact for two weeks. The "apparently Inactive Translator" implies there is a longer period of inactivity than just two weeks (though I don't see a definition for it), so maybe the two weeks to try to contact isn't as unreasonable. I would personally make it something like after two weeks, contact the project manager or wiki supervisor who tries to contact the inactive translator themselves through multiple means, and then 1-2 weeks after no contact again the reservation is annulled (so at least a total of 3-4 weeks of no contact, if not more, plus some amount of general inactivity).
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by AKAAkira »

Inline Illustrations should be placed in the text exactly in the location they occur in the original novel.
I'm not sure if anyone brought this up before, but most people seem to be inserting the code for the illustration right after the previous page. This always bothered me a little, since it's the picture's top that aligns to that code's location, so when viewing it the illustration actually shows up a bit under the piece of text that describes it, instead of adjacent. Can we specify this so that people will know to place the code for the illustration right above the starting line of the opposite page, so that the text and picture would run parallel? Something like:
Inline Illustrations should be placed so that it will be displayed adjacent to the passages written in the page opposite of it in the original novel. To do this, place the relevant piece of code directly before the sentence that starts the page before the picture.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by denormative »

Not directly relating to these rules I guess, but with the 'Manual of Style' section, it might be worth having a minimal "this is a suggested way of handling things for Japanese translation 'style' quirks". Things like:
  • When to use the {Furigana} tag, when not, and how to use it optimally.
  • When to use honorific and when to translate them, and when to drop them (I recall we've got some "princess-sama"'s around the place); same thing with titles (eg, "kaichou" seems to be common offender that really should be translated as some variant of "President" most of the time, but commonly isn't.)
  • Maybe some examples for the 'painful to translate' things like tsukkomi/chuuni? A lot of the time I see these included and then footnoted because it's easier to do this rather then try to work out a context sensitive English translation, having some examples to work from might help?
  • Common ways of handling the Japanese-bracketed emphasis ([word], <word>, <<word>>, «word», etc), and which is 'preferred' (though that might be difficult to determine since translators seem to pick it randomly...).
  • Use of the ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE unicode character code-point to more elegantly force word wrap when an author insists on a roar or growl take a few hundred characters and distort the webpage. :P
It's not something that needs to be followed in lock step, but it'd likely help with the newbie translators that we're also trying to attract.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by onizuka-gto »

I must be blind, but i can't seem to see anything regarding the use of "translated materials published on wiki" within this document.

I'm looking for any policies that codify anything that says a projects "working scripts must be first published on the wiki" or have they been intentionally left out for ambiguity reasons?

If they are there, my apologies.

Edit: okay, got confused with the another draft rule thingy. please ignore this. carry on.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by cloudii »

Sorry I can't get to everyone. I have a paper due today, and I'll only respond to Cthaeh right now 'cause I'm a little crunched on time.
Cthaeh wrote:I don't know that it's really necessary to include the information about tenses in this guideline. While I personally only read things in past tense narration, present tense isn't really wrong. Project managers still have the ability to change it for their project even though that line is there, so it's not really a big issue if it stays.
I'm an extremely strong advocate of having some standard for tenses in a project guideline (whether it be past or present). Different translators may translate in different tenses, and it's necessary for the cohesiveness of the story to have one unified tense in the finished product. You can't have several chapters in present tense, and a several other chapters in the past.

My even bigger peeve is when translators translate a little bit in past tense, revert to present tense, and switch all around. D:<

If I were to choose between past and present tenses at default, past tense is the standard of publishing (though it's being challenged recently in YA writers, recently), and I'd almost 100% guarantee you that if Yen Press picked up a light novel, they would translate it in past tense.

I could go on a super long rant about why I dislike noobie writers in present tense, but in short, I'd say it's difficult to pull off present tense. It's doable, but given the language expertise we have on Baka-Tsuki, I'd generally advise against it. But, if anyone really wants a their project in present tense, that's what the ability to change the guidelines is for. ;D
http://thewriteditor.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/writing-in-present-tense-might-be-a-bad-idea/ wrote:Present tense novels are an editor’s nightmare because no matter how much you think you understand present tense, you don’t. You really don’t. Every single present tense novel I’ve ever edited has had hundreds of mistakes in the tense. If you’re an unpublished, unknown writer, having hundreds of errors makes it a pretty short trip to the rejection pile. And that’s if the agent/editor likes present tense.
Soooo true. D: This is especially true of BT projects. It's even worse when some editors think they're trying to edit in present, while others are trying to edit in past. ;D ....Hence, necessity for guidelines. BT projects need to pick one and stick with it, but I'd push for a past tense default. xD

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http://editorialass.blogspot.com/2010/07/some-very-quick-thoughts-on-present.html wrote:First off, let me say that present tense is not a reason I categorically reject a novel submission. But it often becomes a contributing reason, because successful present tense novel writing is much, much more difficult to execute than past tense novel writing. Most writers, no matter how good they are, are not quite up to the task.
http://thewriteditor.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/writing-in-present-tense-might-be-a-bad-idea/ wrote:First, just let me say that I do not hate the present tense. In fact, I have a present tense story being published in an anthology later this year. The problem with present tense is that it’s great when it’s great, and when it’s not….*shudder* it’s horrible!
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by Cthaeh »

cloudii wrote:(stuff about present tense)
I agree with all of that. I guess my thinking behind my comment was more that codifying it in the project conventions might make it more likely for editors who don't pay attention to specific project guidelines to come into conflict with the translators who have strong opinions about present tense. But it might be a fallacy on my part to assume that an editor who wouldn't pay attention to the specific project guidelines would take the time to read these project conventions.

Being an editor, I guess I was biased thinking about it from that direction. I now see more value in it from the perspective of helping guide new translators in choosing what tense to translate into.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by onizuka-gto »

Editing: I recommend that any edits per session (i.e. 5 changes, userx5) that exceeds 1000 words will be considered a "Major Edit".
As for monitoring purposes, anything over this number tells me an edit is not minor in any such form as it will have takes a person considerable effort in one sitting session or of an vandalising nature, therefore require my attention to to check the username against the project staff and registration list if it is not familiar. If it is an anonymous, then i will revert it immediately.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by rydenius »

Regarding tense it's probably good to have some general guidelines, and maybe I'm a bit naive on this, but shouldn't the translator do his or her best to maintain the tense found in the original work? :?
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by Mystes »

For
>Editors are REQUIRED to contact the Project Staff for Major Edits

I suggest to put them on the chapter's discussion page. If it's a general on, then put it on the project discussion page.
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Re: Rule Ratification: Project Conventions (Wiki) Version 1.

Post by cloudii »

rydenius wrote:[stuff about the one-volume registration rule]
so…… what do you propose we do about it? (TBH, it's a carry-over rule from the last guidelines. That's actually the only reason why it's there. xD)
rydenius wrote:Should this section (and #7 and #8 as well) have some kind of note about cases in which the project is stalled or there is no Project Manager. Maybe something along the lines of contacting a Supervisor?
Will be in the editor's guide/walkthrough. I dislike complicating rules to cover every single possible case, since covering the normal cases makes these rules long enough already. I think we should generally remember that this page describes guidelines/conventions of best practice. These aren't necessarily rules that we're banning people for if they break them @____@;; If fact, there are many users who don't even fully the current format guideline (i.e.: Teh Ping, many others…).
rydenius wrote:Yay for Incomplete templates. I'm glad to see a formal protocol for that. Should there be anything formalized about the chapter listing on the overview page? For example: chapter name (1/5) or chapter name (20%). Is that something we want to avoid in general because of the Android app? So far I haven't seen any problems with it breaking the app for the project I'm working on. (Hmm... that's sounds like it might be better located in the Overview guidelines, but chapter updates are noted here under #12, so it might fit there.)
Like denormative said, I see no real reason to have a requirement to alter the main page, especially if the incomplete template is being used.
rydenius wrote:Also are there other conventions that should be added to make pages more friendly to the Android app?
Not my area of expertise. Someone will need to communicate explicit recommendations to me.
Misogi wrote:[All of the minor edit recommendations]
Added. You know, you're free to edit the page yourself, especially if they're really really minor things (like grammar). ;D
Cthaeh wrote:If any of this ends up requiring that the default text at the top of registration pages be updated, it would probably be a good idea to make a single page/template to get transcluded into the top of registration pages. That way any future changes or updates would only need to made once.
From my experience, each project can place slightly different text on top of their registration pages (depends on what they do for project-specific guidelines). So in that sense, I'm not sure a template would be as useful as we think, if a lot of projects end up writing something custom. IDK though.
Cthaeh wrote:Two weeks seems pretty short to me. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to be out of contact for two weeks. The "apparently Inactive Translator" implies there is a longer period of inactivity than just two weeks (though I don't see a definition for it), so maybe the two weeks to try to contact isn't as unreasonable. I would personally make it something like after two weeks, contact the project manager or wiki supervisor who tries to contact the inactive translator themselves through multiple means, and then 1-2 weeks after no contact again the reservation is annulled (so at least a total of 3-4 weeks of no contact, if not more, plus some amount of general inactivity).
As you pointed out, the "general inactivity" is the key point. Honestly, I wouldn't want to expand a requirement longer than 2 weeks, because I see projects like Hatamaou where lots of people register for a chapter but never upload a thing, and vanish. Their names stay on the registration page and new members don't want to overwrite those registration slots. Hatamaou, by the way, gets a lot of new members.

If I could Supervise Hatamaou, I would put in a requirement that registration slots automatically expire in 1 month if you fail to upload anything (and mark incomplete). But that would be a project-specific type guideline that I think would be better suited for cases like Hatamaou.

Also, the clause of contacting the Project Manager is supposed to play two roles. A): The PM knows of the original translators is actually active or not. B): The PM could try contacting the inactive translator. C): The PM could just say no because he/she knows the (potentially) inactive translator already started some translations, or for some other reason. Furthermore, the PM could opt to ask the interested translator to wait longer than two weeks.

I guess my concern is that there's an active translator who wants to translate (but can't because of logistical restrictions). Compared with an inactive one, I'd rather let the active one translate sooner.
AKAAkira wrote:Inline Illustrations should be placed so that it will be displayed adjacent to the passages written in the page opposite of it in the original novel. To do this, place the relevant piece of code directly before the sentence that starts the page before the picture.
Done.
denormative wrote:Not directly relating to these rules I guess, but with the 'Manual of Style' section, it might be worth having a minimal "this is a suggested way of handling things for Japanese translation 'style' quirks". Things like...
Want to make a Baka-Tsuki Manual of Style? ;D I'll take you up on it if you can start brainstorming items for it. Perhaps split this and add it to AKAAkira's format guideline thread.
Onizuka-gto wrote:Editing: I recommend that any edits per session (i.e. 5 changes, userx5) that exceeds 1000 words will be considered a "Major Edit".
As for monitoring purposes, anything over this number tells me an edit is not minor in any such form as it will have takes a person considerable effort in one sitting session or of an vandalising nature, therefore require my attention to to check the username against the project staff and registration list if it is not familiar. If it is an anonymous, then i will revert it immediately.
We've defined a major edit as anything that would necessitate an editor contacting the translator… so does that mean we should try and shift some definitions?
rydenius wrote:Regarding tense it's probably good to have some general guidelines, and maybe I'm a bit naive on this, but shouldn't the translator do his or her best to maintain the tense found in the original work?
Arguably, you could say all stories in Chinese narrate in present tense. But that's the norm in asian literature. It would be weird to carry it over literally.

i.e.: "Once upon a time, in a land far far away, there is a dog who chases mice. This dog loves being mean to mice, and eats all the mice he can. One day this dog runs outside and sees a mouse. He thinks it's great that he can chase mice every day!"

In Western languages, the normal way of telling a story is in past tense (hence, the classic openings like "On a dark and stormy night" or "Once upon a time"). While it's become increasingly common to narrate novels in present tense nowadays, it's an unusual narrative tense for an English reader.

As a translator, I often say it's important to translate the effect, not the literal. A japanese reader reads a novel seamlessly. With that regard, the translation should read seamlessly. If we translated the tense as present, it can stick out and feel "unusual." But that feeling wasn't present for the original japanese reader.

http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index ... kaya_style Something you might find interesting. ;D Lare-tan is amazing, as usual.
Kira082 wrote:For
>Editors are REQUIRED to contact the Project Staff for Major Edits

I suggest to put them on the chapter's discussion page. If it's a general on, then put it on the project discussion page.
We had this discussion before. xD

From what I observe, the most popular way editors communicate with translators is on user talk pages (or some other direct communication means).

With that respect, I'd prefer that these conventions reflect the most popular behaviors on Baka-Tsuki. Of course, if you'd prefer that editors put them on chapter discussion pages, that's something as a translator you can request.
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