Physics of Kara no Kyoukai universe

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Florin
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Physics of Kara no Kyoukai universe

Post by Florin »

Shiki can even kill a God, if it's alive. What exactly does "alive" mean? Is she unable to cut wood? Steel? If so, is armored opponent safe from her attacks?
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Post by onizuka-gto »

well, the male shiki can cut/break non organic objects as he can still see it's lines of destruction.

however on living objects he can also see the lines of life.

while on most living object simply cutting the lines of destructions is more then enough to *kill* it, but for immortal beings, it merely destroys it, the spirit/soul still lives.

however ever if male shiki cuts the lines of life, the soul and container is destroyed/killed.

However, he can only cut that he can touch, hence only third dimensional objects.

While i think the female shiki has a slight variation, in that she can't cut the lines of life, but she can attack a wider dimension of object.

She can also apparently "grab" or "tug" on other dimensional connections.

i suppose there might be other powers, but i only read the first book, so i'll get back to you about it.

but right now, i think male shiki has the upper hand so far.
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dt
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Post by dt »

Spoiler! :
Image
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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon »

The Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are what both Shikis have. Enormous spoilers follow.

Origin:
Spoiler! :
Tohno Shiki's eyes came from experiencing death. His family possessed psychic eyes called the Jougan, which allowed him to see unnatural things. These eyes let him witness death when he was killed. He saw the source of all things, beginning and end, so he came to understand the termination of all things. Ryougi Shiki's eyes are different, and I don't want to spoil that in this. They both get it from going into death and returning, though.
Basis:
Spoiler! :
Their eyes can see lines and points (well, Tohno sees lines, Ryougi doesn't see points). The lines are where objects will break most easily. Points are where the ingrained destruction of the entire object is contained. These lines and points don't affect the physical object directly, but rather its concept. Lines break the concept at parts, points destroy the entire concept. Magic, armor, weapons, and psychic abilities have no effect on the Mystic Eyes' function. Concept is defined as an object's existence in the universe.

Anything that is created has a set span of existence. All things will eventually be destroyed. Both Shikis can pre-emptively end an object's existence by understanding its nature and striking. Something destroyed cannot be returned, even by magical means. (Arcueid cannot regenerate her line wounds, as she has to replace the parts from outside matter.) Both Shikis see an alternate view of the world, so that they can cut the lines or points of objects through other objects. Even non-physical things can be cut. As long as a concept of its exists, their eyes can see it. Tohno kills the soul of a reincarnating vampire priest, for God's sake. It's beyond understanding.
Limitations:
Spoiler! :
Lines and points can only be cut by the possessor of the eyes. They can only be harmed by a direct extension of the person's body. For Tohno, seeing the existence of an object's death causes his brain to overstress and his blood vessels to break. (In Nanaya mode, this doesn't occur, because he's exercising the full power of his Jougan which allows him to understand the nature of unnatural things when he sees them.)

For either Ryougi or Tohno to cut a line, they must first see it. If they can't understand the object's existence, no lines or points will show to them. Tohno can't see points on non-living things because he can't understand the absolute end of non-living concepts. When Arcueid is at full power under a full moon, he cannot understand her end. Ryougi is different. She can see lines on anything and everything because she's touched a different understanding of the universe than Tohno.

The biggest limitation of the eyes is that only things which are part of the cycle of destruction and creation can be ended. Things removed from the flow of time or fate will not have lines of death. I suppose if you understood the end of the universe, though, even this might be broken (Hint hint, Ryougi.)
Final Notes:
Spoiler! :
For Tohno, his eyes eventually can overpower his mystic eyekiller glasses if he's crazy enough. They grow stronger with each use. He starts off only seeing lines, then seeing points. For Ryougi, she can never shut off her eyes because they're too strong. While Tohno can't cut thin air, she can. Can also see and cut magic, lots of variations.

They're the ultimate weapons... if you can get to your target.

Work with anything that has a theoretical edge, even your bare hands. Ryougi uses her fingernails, Tohno uses a flat hand thrust.

Death is instantaneous at the demise of the object's concept, which only occurs in Tohno's case vs. points.
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Post by Florin »

dt: :lol:
Dragoon:
Spoiler! :
Are you sure Ryougi can't see points? Her fight with Fujoh Kirie goes like this:
One on each of her legs, one on her back, and one point on her left chest. The cutting section called death can be certainly seen. The one on her chest would be a good one to aim for. That would be an instant kill. Even if that woman is just an image, I could kill a God.
The reason I thought about the armor issue in the first place is the scene where Shiki is using her nails against the zombie and breaks her finger. This made me think, that, even when cutting along the lines, physical matter provides resistance, and, if corpse's flesh provides enough resistance to break her finger, isn't steel armor's resistance enough to stop the knife? However, if you say Shiki can cut through other objects, does this mean armor is going to remain without a scratch while the person inside is cut in half?
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Post by Byakko »

Tohno can't see points on non-living things because he can't understand the absolute end of non-living concepts.
Actually he does. In Arc route when facing Roa and in Ciel route to remove Arc's full moon time invulnerability.
SHIKI (the white-haired one) (and thus Roa too) is the one who can't see lines (and points) on non-living objects.

Ryougi Shiki can kill concepts and non-physical things (Fujino's special vision), and physical thing are indeed harder to cut for her - she sees lines alright but there's still some physical resistance (less than normal, but still). She sees points, but no differentiation has been made between dots and lines for her, I think. Not that we have met any case where the difference would hold any importance, though.
Shiki can cut through magic stuff (Akiha's draining strands) and as long as he cuts the lines, it's as if there was no resistance at all - he can cut anything, be it wood or, say, adamantium as if it just... wasn't there.
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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon »

Byakko wrote:Actually he does. In Arc route when facing Roa and in Ciel route to remove Arc's full moon time invulnerability.
SHIKI (the white-haired one) (and thus Roa too) is the one who can't see lines (and points) on non-living objects.
Hmm. When he crashes the bridge in Arc's route, I was pretty sure he was cutting a major line of it to bring it down. Did he cut a point? If so, then I guess he can see points on non-living objects at the end of Arc's route. It has been a while since I played it. In Ciel's route, Tohno isn't cutting the "ground." The point he sees is the will of Gaia itself. He destroys Arc's unlimited backup ability, which allows her to naturally increase her power to always exceed her opponent's. Unlimited backup would be a pseudo-living, non-physical entity, which he can see points on.
Ryougi Shiki can kill concepts and non-physical things (Fujino's special vision), and physical thing are indeed harder to cut for her - she sees lines alright but there's still some physical resistance (less than normal, but still). She sees points, but no differentiation has been made between dots and lines for her, I think. Not that we have met any case where the difference would hold any importance, though.
I suppose so. Kara no Kyoukai was done before Tsukihime, so the rules might still have been open to change then. For Tohno's eyes, points and lines are completely different in value, and cutting them leaves no resistance whatsoever. Was pretty sure Ryougi only saw lines, but there does appear to be instances of "points," too.
Shiki can cut through magic stuff (Akiha's draining strands) and as long as he cuts the lines, it's as if there was no resistance at all - he can cut anything, be it wood or, say, adamantium as if it just... wasn't there.
Akiha's hair is a bit different. As far as I can tell, when she draws out heat from people she's attacking, her hair is extended into them. It's actually a real thing and not just a magical concept. Tohno should be able to cut that rather easily.

And yeah, both Shikis should be able to cut something through another thing. The armor and the person within it have different concepts, so they should be able to be killed independent of the other. However, if you were looking at the object as "a person wearing heavy armor," you might be able to cut both at the same time. Tohno can kill individual parts or the whole entity, as shown when fighting Nrvnqsr's familiars vs. all of them together as the 999th Beast.
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Post by Byakko »

her hair is extended into them.
I don't think it's said so in a litteral sense.
I'd have to replay the game, but I'm pretty sure NShiki really stabs a dot in the ground in both Arc and Ciel routes - I don't remember anything indicating otherwise, at least.
Tohno can kill individual parts or the whole entity, as shown when fighting Nrvnqsr's familiars vs. all of them together as the 999th Beast.
That's because he's killing the entity that makes the beasts alive, which isn't the same thing as killing both a guy and his armor, though.
Otherwise, cf Kohaku and the poison - the default should be that he cuts whatever the knife physically goes through, but concentrating allows him to kill something that is inside something else without harming what's outside.
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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon »

Wrong. Nrvnqsr Chaos is not an entity of one that has familiars. All of his familiars together are in fact Chaos. Each one is its own entity, seperate from the others yet together. In fact, Fabro Rowan, the human who became Chaos, doesn't really exist anymore. He admits this himself, as he's slowly losing what's left of that prior existence as he comes closer to pure chaos.

Each familiar had a point of existence to itself (each individual consumed animal), just as the existence of all of them together had a point to itself (the 999th Beast, the amalgamation of chaos itself). If the familiars had been merely an extension of the body, when they exited the body they shouldn't have had points. They do, however, implying they are seperate entities at heart. This is further proven if you take the Dawn story from Kagetsu Tohya to heart, in which after Chaos dies his remaining familiars that were not a part of the 999th Beast form continue to live on past his death.

The MEoDP kill concepts within reality, not physical existences. The eyes cut not only the body of the person they hit, but also anything they wear, as shown in the novel, anime, and manga. This would imply that the concept his eyes cut are "this person and everything that is a part of them," including what they wear. Otherwise, their bodies alone should be cut and not anything which isn't physically a part of them. So it goes to say that if he can kill the conceptual existence of [a poison], he should be able to kill the conceptual existence of [a person] or [an armor] independently of the other, or [a person wearing armor] together, as long as the two parts really have a connection with the other.

Ryougi Shiki's eyes have a similar connection: When she kills the floating existence of the girl in the hospital, the death of that existence begins to flow back into the girl slowly. She would have died anyway if she hadn't jumped and hadn't had the assistance of Tohko. The extension is still considered a part of the original concept... so I guess if the extension is killed, it begins to creep back to the original's whole concept. You can't kill some concepts without killing what's attached to it. If you killed the [a vampire] concept of a person, they would still die because they can't go back to being [a human]. Even if you cleanly cut away the damaged portion of an organ, the organ may die anyway without the missing part.

EDIT:

I know "Dawn" is fan-made, but it was included at Nasu's permission, so it must be considered at least partly canon. In addition, Shiki's little familiar bandaid in Arc's path continues to live, as well, after Chaos is destroyed.
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Byakko
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Post by Byakko »

... ? For the part about Nero, you're not contradicting anything of what was said.

As for the clothes thing.
You're didn't get anything of what I said.
I was saying it is possible to kill them separately, I wasn't saying it is impossible to kill them both at the same time.

Did you just want to tell me I was wrong or something ?
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Post by Dragoon »

Byakko wrote:... ? For the part about Nero, you're not contradicting anything of what was said.
Hrm. I think the misunderstanding I had was somewhere along the lines of you not agreeing to the parallel. Different parts can be different concepts, so that the familiars, which are actually Chaos, can be killed differently than when they fuse together and become a bigger concept of the 999th Beast. You can kill one or the other, or all of them together depending on the concept you're attacking.

I think I just misunderstood what you were trying to say, so sorry. It seems you were agreeing with me(?)

Oh well, it's not important in the long run. Nasu changes his mind on the physics of things constantly.
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Byakko
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Post by Byakko »

It seems you were agreeing with me(?)
Yes, I wasn't disputing the nature of Nero, just adding informations on how Shiki, not only could kill the whole thing (the whole chaos, and the beasts that aren't inside at that time are leftover life forces), but also can kill, say, the poison inside a body without harming the body, or the guy inside an armor without touching the armor, if he fries his brain enough :P
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Post by alyeris »

Shiki (Tsukihime) does suffer from the downside that his body is not adapted to handle the concept of death. You can see that with his continual headaches when he uses his mystic eyes.

And can we assume that he can kill things inside armor? I remember that in the korean version of Tsukihime, he talks about killing the 'world' that is Nero Chaos, along with all its 666 inhabitants. Armor is inanimate too, and the concept of a person inside the armor wouldn't necessarily be visible. That would mean that Shiki (both) would have the ability to cut the emotional/spiritual ties between a person and an object too. How do you kill something that doesn't exist? Things like steel bars and rocks still have a physical presence upon the world, and ghosts would at least have a psychic presence.

Oh and Ryougi's handling of spirits (in chapter 1 where she pulls Fujoh towards her) is due to Touko having augmented her arm after she cut it off while fighting Fujino in chapter 3. Go check it out, I think she specifically mentions changing her arm so it can touch spirits.
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Byakko
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Post by Byakko »

And can we assume that he can kill things inside armor?
Considering he can kill the poison inside Kohaku's body without harming her ?
I remember that in the korean version of Tsukihime, he talks about killing the 'world' that is Nero Chaos, along with all its 666 inhabitants.
Kewyords : Korean version. It's the "entity" that is chaos, and the beasts are part of that entity.
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