Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

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Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby DissmalScientist » Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:36 pm

Thanks for moving forward with the translation ShadowHeart :D You're a speedy devil.
Both Hiyono and I had a question about this sentence.

"Seemingly hard to understand, yet abnormally relaxed, someone with a definite 'right'." -this is describing Kazuma
Now, this sounds a little awkward in English. When it says he has a definite 'right,' what exactly is that meant to describe? From the context my guesses were; calmness, powerful/relaxed aura, air of freedom (the idea that Kazuma is super confident, never feels like he is wrong).

Another bone of contention:
"Even so, if the opponent is just someone who devotes all nutrients, even those that should go into the brain, into her breasts and waist, Ayano will not conceit defeat."

Now does it does it say that all her nutrients go to her breasts AND waist? That kind of conjures the image of chubby woman with large breasts, rather than a woman with an hourglass figure, which I think is more what the author is going for. Maybe this is only confusing to me, Hiyono didn't seem bothered by it.

Hopefully you can clear those up for us :wink:
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby ShadowZeroHeart » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:19 pm

DissmalScientist wrote:Thanks for moving forward with the translation ShadowHeart :D You're a speedy devil.
Both Hiyono and I had a question about this sentence.

"Seemingly hard to understand, yet abnormally relaxed, someone with a definite 'right'." -this is describing Kazuma
Now, this sounds a little awkward in English. When it says he has a definite 'right,' what exactly is that meant to describe? From the context my guesses were; calmness, powerful/relaxed aura, air of freedom (the idea that Kazuma is super confident, never feels like he is wrong).


Okay, thanks for pointinng that out... Actually this is something which i had a very hard time coming up with a word to put in... maybe due to my poor english vocab... lemme dig it out... *flips KnS book2*

The phrase used in the chinese text is "資格",
http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/% ... 0%BC/57058
This webby shows the meaning of the phrase... However, in my own personal opinion the sentence goes a little awkward still... it means that he has the right to be on Ayano's mind, to compare with his father or for her to notice him etc... I am not exactly sure how to put it in words... Sorry for the trouble...

DissmalScientist wrote:Another bone of contention:
"Even so, if the opponent is just someone who devotes all nutrients, even those that should go into the brain, into her breasts and waist, Ayano will not conceit defeat."

Now does it does it say that all her nutrients go to her breasts AND waist? That kind of conjures the image of chubby woman with large breasts, rather than a woman with an hourglass figure, which I think is more what the author is going for. Maybe this is only confusing to me, Hiyono didn't seem bothered by it.

Hopefully you can clear those up for us :wink:


I believe the reason Hiyono is not bothered by it is because Hiyono got my meaning? @@ (Yay, a supporter!)

Anyways, in this sentence, "someone who devotes all nutrients, even those that should go into the brain, into her breast and waist" would mean that this someone has no brains, since even those nutrients meant for the brains go into her breasts and waist, and yes, likely to be an hourglass figure... The reason i placed that the nutrients go into her breast and waist, is because it is closest to a direct translation to the original text. The reason about the waist might be(cannot be sure) that chinese/japanese, would think that females with a big waist makes a good wife? i am not really sure though...

Anyways, from the entire sentence, it would mean that if the opponent only has a good figure and no brains, Ayano would not conceit defeat.

And thank you, for telling me your doubts. Feel free to point out anything else, i will be more than happy to clarify them, and hopefully improve on my quality of translations for the good of all who read it. Thank you very much for all your comments ^^
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby Hiyono » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:05 am

Point #1
ShadowZeroHeart wrote:
DissmalScientist wrote:Thanks for moving forward with the translation ShadowHeart :D You're a speedy devil.
Both Hiyono and I had a question about this sentence.

"Seemingly hard to understand, yet abnormally relaxed, someone with a definite 'right'." -this is describing Kazuma
Now, this sounds a little awkward in English. When it says he has a definite 'right,' what exactly is that meant to describe? From the context my guesses were; calmness, powerful/relaxed aura, air of freedom (the idea that Kazuma is super confident, never feels like he is wrong).


Okay, thanks for pointinng that out... Actually this is something which i had a very hard time coming up with a word to put in... maybe due to my poor english vocab... lemme dig it out... *flips KnS book2*

The phrase used in the chinese text is "資格",
http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/% ... 0%BC/57058
This webby shows the meaning of the phrase... However, in my own personal opinion the sentence goes a little awkward still... it means that he has the right to be on Ayano's mind, to compare with his father or for her to notice him etc... I am not exactly sure how to put it in words... Sorry for the trouble...

While it might be troublesome to translate directly/literally, I would suggest simply clarifying. A good translator, particularly of grammatically different languages such as Chinese/Japanese and English, will often vary between degrees of translating by "letter" and by "spirit" (intended meaning). Perhaps something along the lines of "Seemingly difficult to approach [assuming that hard to understand = unapproachable], yet uncommonly relaxed/at ease [with a connotation of unconstrained] - a person undoubtedly qualified to be considered alongside her father."

Point #2
"Even so, if the opponent is just someone who devotes all nutrients, even those that should go into the brain, into her breasts and waist, Ayano will not conceit defeat."

I've briefly commented on this issue on the discussions page, but I'll try to clarify more deeply here. In Japanese culture, there are three important measurements: BWH, which are breasts, waist, and hips, respectively. The so-called hourglass shape refers to a large bust and hip size, with a thin waist, with the "ideal" three size measurement being 90cm, 60cm, 90cm. This is the standard for physical appeal. As I mentioned on the discussions page, this statement attempts to clarify the difference between someone with only physical appeal and someone who has both physical appeal and intelligence. From this we can conclude that, as both of you have surmised, the hourglass shape is the one in question.

Now, if the hourglass shape is the intended meaning, how is it that the description reads "breasts" & "waist" when the hourglass shape requires large "breasts" and "hips" and a thin "waist"? I believe the answer is quite simple. In Chinese, the character for "waist" and "hips" is the same (腰部). Simply put, the translation reads "waist" when it should have been "hips".
Last edited by Hiyono on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby ShadowZeroHeart » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:11 am

Hiyono wrote:Point #1
While it might be troublesome to translate directly/literally, I would suggest simply clarifying. A good translator, particularly of grammatically different languages such as Chinese/Japanese and English, will often vary between degrees of translating by "letter" and by "spirit" (intended meaning). Perhaps something along the lines of "Seemingly difficult to approach [assuming that hard to understand = unapproachable], yet uncommonly relaxed/at ease [with a connotation of unconstrained] - a person undoubtedly qualified to be considered alongside her father."


It is meant that Kazuma has the right to be with her, or to be compared to her father, there is nothing to do with aura, unapproachability, at ease or feelings... it is more of he has the priviledge, or right... >"< that is why i had a hard time finding a proper word there...

Hiyono wrote:Point #2
"Even so, if the opponent is just someone who devotes all nutrients, even those that should go into the brain, into her breasts and waist, Ayano will not conceit defeat."

I've briefly commented on this issue on the discussions page, but I'll try to clarify more deeply here. In Japanese culture, there are three important measurements: BWH, which are breasts, waist, and hips, respectively. The so-called hourglass shape refers to a large bust and hip size, with a thin waist, with the "ideal" three size measurement being 90cm, 60cm, 90cm. This is the standard for physical appeal. As I mentioned on the discussions page, this statement attempts to clarify the difference between someone with only physical appeal and someone who has both physical appeal and intelligence. From this we can conclude that, as both of you have surmised, the hourglass shape is the one in question.

Now, if the hourglass shape is the intended meaning, how is it that the description reads "breasts" & "waist" when the hourglass shape requires large "breasts" and "hips" and a thin "waist"? I believe the answer is quite simple. In Chinese, the character for "waist" and "hips" is the same (名). Simply put, the translation reads "waist" when it should have been "hips".


Sorry about this point, i did not realise the part about the waist and hips being of the same chinese word... so i guess it is correct that it should be hips, instead of waist. I sincerely apologise about this error i made. Thank you for realising this.
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby DissmalScientist » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:30 am

Thanks for clearing that up, Shadow and Hiyono.

I went ahead and changed 'waist' to 'hips' and used the phrasing that Hiyono came up with for that 'right' passage.
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby Hiyono » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:32 am

DissmalScientist wrote:Thanks for clearing that up, Shadow and Hiyono.
I went ahead and changed 'waist' to 'hips' and used the phrasing that Hiyono came up with for that 'right' passage.

Er, didn't Shadow just say I was wrong about that first part? :?:

@ Shadow, would you mind giving us the full Chinese text for that sentence? That would help.
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby DissmalScientist » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:59 pm

Shadow said:
It is meant that Kazuma has the right to be with her, or to be compared to her father, there is nothing to do with aura, unapproachability, at ease or feelings... it is more of he has the priviledge, or right... >"< that is why i had a hard time finding a proper word there...

seems pretty close to your suggestion-"a person undoubtedly qualified to be considered alongside her father"

At least to me that seems to get at the heart at what were trying to express.
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby ShadowZeroHeart » Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:35 pm

Sorry, i went to sleep yesterday... This is the chinese text you requested Hiyono, starting from two sentences before...

"才沒有這回事. 爸爸他以前也曾經年輕過啊, 只要我能夠找到感覺相近的人----"

綾乃說到一半便閉上嘴巴, 皺起了眉頭, 因為這些話讓她不自覺地想起了那個討厭的人.

看上去令人捉摸不定, 卻又異常沉穩, 擁有絕對"資格"的男人.


And sorry about the late reply, i read Dissmal saying that the text Hiyono suggested would be used, and i read it again and thought it might be suitable to use undoubtedly qualified to be considered alongside her father, which i did see in the B-T page, that is why i did not make a reply. Sorry for the inconvience caused. anyways may this help to solve the questions?

P.S. Have you guys read chapter 1,2 and 4 of the KnS volume one? what do you guys think? i checked it and found that it is different in some ways, but if you guys think it is okay i wont touch it(and if possible i dun wanna)

Edit: does anyone know the meaning of this? 桀騖不遜... i am going to indicate where it is in my translation, i shall use the word dogmatic for now...

And what is the jap name for 雅行? Misao's father...? i need to know... can anyone help?

Edit part 2: Seeking help from SnS thread...
Spoiler! :
Doing translations... stuck...
how to translate 不自量力 in english?
I need it in a simplified form... since the author wants to explain it in another form later...
跩什麼跩 is the later meaning that the author wants to use... i am taking it as "what are you so boastful about"? but it seems to differ from the meaning of 不自量力 at the same time... need... help... dying...

Full sentence:你們這群不自量力的臭蟲簡直不知天高地厚! and later the author says the idiots dont understand the meaning of 不自量力, and that for them to understand it would be like 跩什麼跩...

And if possible, 刀鑿般的深邃五官泛起淡淡的笑意 too?


Argh, SnS is really hard... hard to spell names, hard to translate phrases...
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby Vaelis » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:33 am

ShadowZeroHeart wrote:桀騖不遜...

I don't know if it will help you but:
桀: cruel
騖: fast / greedy / run rapidly
不遜: rude / impertinent

And what is the jap name for 雅行? Misao's father...?

Masayuki.

how to translate 不自量力 in english?
I need it in a simplified form... since the author wants to explain it in another form later...

http://www.babylon.com/definition/%E4%B ... 9B/English ?
Not being able to measure one's own strength.
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby ShadowZeroHeart » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:26 am

Vaelis wrote:
how to translate 不自量力 in english?
I need it in a simplified form... since the author wants to explain it in another form later...

http://www.babylon.com/definition/%E4%B ... 9B/English ?
Not being able to measure one's own strength.


Yes... i got that webby too... but if i put it into my translation... it would be too funny...? either that or i must by some skillful way insert it into the sentence such that it seems right... argh...

And thanks for the rest of your post, i intend to confirm the first with my dad once he is back, hopefully he knows,
as for the second, maybe i will leave it to the editors =X lolz we shall see
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby Vaelis » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:52 am

ShadowZeroHeart wrote:Yes... i got that webby too... but if i put it into my translation... it would be too funny...? either that or i must by some skillful way insert it into the sentence such that it seems right... argh...

In the japanese raws it sounds like "to know one's own place".

So the translation is probably something like this: "those [trash? insect?], there is a limit of not knowing one's own place!"
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby ShadowZeroHeart » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:43 am

Vaelis wrote:
ShadowZeroHeart wrote:Yes... i got that webby too... but if i put it into my translation... it would be too funny...? either that or i must by some skillful way insert it into the sentence such that it seems right... argh...

In the japanese raws it sounds like "to know one's own place".

So the translation is probably something like this: "those [trash? insect?], there is a limit of not knowing one's own place!"


Yes ^^" i had something of that meaning... but the author has a prank, in the next line, saying that the punks/insects/trash/pests are too dumb to understand what it means by "to know one's place"? >"< or something in that sense, so i have been trying to think of a good way to phrase it... GEEZ! WHAT IS THEIR EDUCATION LEVEL?? Grrr....
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby DissmalScientist » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:43 am

This phrase here:
“Hmph! To forget who it is that raised them for so long, and to even try to fight back! What foolish beings!” [actual text says to feed and raise them to their size(like a dog/animal) and to even bite us back]

There's acutally an English idiom that is pretty close-when someone you look after betrays you it's described as 'dogs biting the hands that feed them.'

So maybe we cold put that in like so- "Hmph! Stupid dogs-biting the hand that fed them!"
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby ShadowZeroHeart » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:57 am

No complaints on that, sorry, not exactly good with idioms
God!!
You need not forgive me.
For those I love,
The violence brought about by sinful men
Shall now be used once more.
If you were created to save this world,
If there is a single shred of hope left for the future of mankind,
I am very sorry, but, please begone!
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Re: Book 2, Chapter 1 discussion

Postby Hiyono » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:04 pm

ShadowZeroHeart wrote:Sorry, i went to sleep yesterday... This is the chinese text you requested Hiyono, starting from two sentences before...
看上去令人捉摸不定, 卻又異常沉穩, 擁有絕對"資格"的男人.

This is indeed tricky to translate. It should be somewhere along the lines of "At first glance, a man difficult to gauge, though in truth a person of calm poise - truly a 'man' qualified." The wording in the original text is quite odd.

ShadowZeroHeart wrote:Edit: does anyone know the meaning of this? 桀騖不遜... i am going to indicate where it is in my translation, i shall use the word dogmatic for now...

桀: cruel/merciless
騖: fast/rapid
不遜: unyielding
Assuming that these are describing an attack of some sort, the meaning is probably along the lines of "fast, merciless and unyielding."

ShadowZeroHeart wrote:how to translate 不自量力 in english?

It refers to an inability to understand your limits.

ShadowZeroHeart wrote:Yes ^^" i had something of that meaning... but the author has a prank, in the next line, saying that the punks/insects/trash/pests are too dumb to understand what it means by "to know one's place"?

It means they're too stupid to realize they're outclassed.

Also, could I catch a link to your Shana translations? :D
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