[ch 5] "Consortium" -> ?

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Da~Mike
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[ch 5] "Consortium" -> ?

Post by Da~Mike »

"Consortium" -> ?

How about "Brotherhood?" instead? sounds like a smaller group, and not like some multinational government-like group.

Edit: or even "fellowship"

Onizuka-gto 10:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, they use a weird term... 機関 literally means "organ, mechanism, facility, engine". I don't know about that... "Consortium" seems to miss the tone of the word. Another translation used by the fansubbers of the anime is "Organization", which is better, but still off.

I'm going to go off on a tangent and suggest a different term. One that gibes well with the idea that Tanigawa-sensei is a science fiction fan. I think the term he's trying to use is one that was borrowed from Cordwainer Smith, and that the word ought to be: "Instrumentality".

I'm not going to make an edit of the entire chapter, because this obviously needs to be discussed beforehand -- but that's my opinion.

--Freak Of Nature 13:28, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


"noted, guess we should get this out the way as soon as possible but with some discussion before hand.

after having it clarified, i propose another term for it.

"Agent"

i.e. I'am part of the "Agent". sounds quite good, if i say so myself.

Onizuka-gto 14:45, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Well, okay, I guess that works -- but then it should be "The Agency", as "Agent" implies an individual.

One problem I see with this is that "The Agency" is a universally recognised euphemism for the C.I.A.

--Freak Of Nature 14:47, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


oh...really?

i guess thats a US thing, we have no such thing in the backwards Brit isles.

how about The "System"? ..."Implement" or the "Operation"?


mmm...kinda like the "Operation" ...... you can say it in oublic and people would think your either a doctor or some sort of.....doctor. lol

Onizuka-gto 15:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

My vote is still for "The Instrumentality". Partly because it fits the mechanistic tone of teh original word 機関, and partly because it's such an obvious reference to a classic science fiction master, Cordwainer Smith. I'm convinced that Tanigawa-sensei is making a deliberate literary allusion, just as he has done elsewhere in the book (with "The Fall of Hyperion" and with "The Blue Bird of Happiness").

--Freak Of Nature 15:18, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i have no idea why i don't like that word, it just...doesn't sound right.

personally we could of called it the "council" or even the "carbinet", but they have the ring of a government sponsored large group.

Oh well, i just went round in circles just because I don't like that word, so i'll throw my last alternative and leave it at that for others to decide,

"The Encephalon" which means brain, the centre of knowledge, part of the whole. sorta mechanical thing as well.


Onizuka-gto 15:40, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Okay, now, I personally like "The Encephalon". It's cool in a geeky sort of way, and it's the sort of thing that I'd name my own secret society, if I had one. And we'd have cool black robes and scantily-attired handmaidens and all that jazz, and a plan to rule the world. And a secret handshake, and decoder rings. And they would rue the day they took us lightly! Muahahahahahhhh!

But... it just doesn't sound right for Koizumi's group's name. Sorry.

--Freak Of Nature 16:52, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


ok...so we are back to square one.

dammn this..this..suxs..... :/

ok.. how about the "Ministry" which means One that serves as a means; an instrumentality.

or "Puissance" which means power, might.

"Ministry" actually sounds alright, it gives abit of a religous group, but that's ok, as essential thats what they are in regard to Haruhi.

But the word "Puissance" does give it the same shadowry image, on the same level as Illuminati.

I just realise why i don't like your word, its too long, it has whatch-call-it, five thingys. i.e. in, stru, ment, ta, li, ty. five phonic bits.

while i preferr one that is around four or less. i.e. Mi, ni, stry or pu, i, sance.

Onizuka-gto 17:46, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Six syllables, yes. I know, but on the other hand, there is a certain rolling sonorousness to it.

In-stru-men-TA-li-ty.

But I'm serious about my conviction that Tanigawa-sensei is making a literary allusion. I am certain that he's referencing Cordwainer Smith's classic SF stories. It would be perfectly in keeping with the obvious fact that the series, at least to begin with, is an elaborate SF fanfic.

If I'm voted down on this, so it goes -- but I'm still convinced this is how it is.

Brainstorming some possible alternatives: "The Complex", "The Structure"... meh.

--Freak Of Nature 18:05, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


Hmm, out of the possibilities listed above "Instrumentality" does sound best I think, given we need a mechanical feel to it that also serves as a reference. Make sure to mark this word with a "translator's note/reference" just to point out the connection to Cordwainer Smith's work. Besides, for the odd case where such a long word might sound awkward, we can always refer to it as "Itsuki's group/affiliation" (inserting whatever pronoun is appropriate) though I can't immediately think of such odd cases.

Btw, am I correct in interpreting that, while there are only ~10 Espers in Itsuki's group, that there's likely a bunch of ordinary people too who deal with the Administration and stuff?

--Psieye 18:21, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


gaaah. psieye. grrr.

well he says 10 members, that was my impression.

But if that does not include other personals, part of the group who has no powers, then calling it the organisation,"council" even the "agency" or the one original would be more accurate.

I hate waiting for votes, three voters don't count. need more people.

p


GTO-Kun 18:32, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

There's nothing weird about 機関. It is a very common word used for decision making bodies and organizations that were created for the fulfilment of specific goals. The suggestions here are the ones that are weird if you ask me. They're also fairly creative, but the original word itself doesn't really imply these sort of things.

I'd just go with a simple and widely accepted translation. "Organization", "Agency", "Council" (in rough order of preference).

--Cruzz 21:28, 24 April 2006 (PDT)


sheesh. i've done so many backpeddling i might as well just run backwards or something, but anyway, after giving it a run about in my head. "Council" doesn't have the same ring, and neither does "Agency". Which gets me back to square one. dammit.

But Cruzz has a point, it's really just a simple word, but we all trying to find some deeper meaning into it. After all this, i'm beginning to think its better we just left it as it is. But i still don't like "instrumentality". heh.

But i can go with "complex" or even "Manifold" or..ok. i'll stop. just the first one. really. no really. unless you like the other one? arrgh. Someone vote before i change my mind.

Onizuka-gto 22:14, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

27th April, Deadline for this Debate to be concluded

ok. i hate to say this, but i'm gonna give this one more day, that is until it's the 27th, i don't want this to drag on, so thats the deadline for any other suggestion or aye/nay votes. After that we count the votes, and leave it at that. Which means though I loath to say it, if no one else put another suggestion or nay votes. FoN's "instrumentality" gets the spot. dammit. someone, anyone. help. \(;_; )/

Onizuka-gto 21:12, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Let me make it easier for you: Although I favour "The Intrumentality", I think "The Organization" ought to be our compromise. I have a feeling it is the option that best suits everybody's idea, and which stays closest to the original.

If anyone ever has the chance to find out from Tanigawa-sensei, directly or indirectly, whether the name was (as I think) intended as a nod to Cordwainer Smith's "Instrumentality of Man", I want to know. But for now, I think "The Organization" is the phrase to stick with.

(I kind of liked "The Encephalon", though -- it would look great on a business card: "F. On, Supreme Inquisitor, The Encephalon". Groovy...)

--Freak Of Nature 01:24, 26 April 2006 (PDT)


Hmm, then how about this: use "The Organisation" as our offical term throughout the text, but leave a footnote/reference note pointing to the "Translator's Notes/References" section (wherever they'll be) where we mention our thought of "Instrumentality" and the rest of FON's posts above. It's indeed nice to make note of references but the English equivalent seems slightly unwieldly to be used in 'everyday field talk'.

Heck, it may even be that the group's name is something different and more elegant, but because it's a nuisance to say it in full each time the field agents simply refer it as The Organisation - much easier for other people (read: Kyon) to understand too.

--Psieye 03:31, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

It's really quite confusing if you have to use "The Organization" in lines like "So this organization of yours, 'the Organization', what does it do?" This creates unnecessary repetition, which was why I used 'Consortium'. Because in the original text, "organization" is "souseki" while "kikan" is Koizumi's group.

As for the other alternatives, while "Instrumentality" sounds long and bulky, with a whopping six syllables, it's certainly easier for the reader to understand what it is than "Encephalon". Because when I read "kikan", I knew what it meant right away.

--Kinny Riddle 22:26, 26 April 2006 (HKT)

I can go with organisation, but i can see your point Kinny, but in that case you mentioned all you have to do is change the words, i.e.

"So this group of yours, 'the Organization', what does it do?"

like so.

oh i like the footnote thing too, just link it to the format style guideline on the correct terms, and add a nte under it or something. saves adding the same footnote to each individual chapters.

Onizuka-gto 08:58, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

"Kikan Kakei Keizai Kenkyu" = The Institute for Research on Household Economics... So "Institute" ?? my 2 cents...


*

At the moment, its on "organisation"

But "Institutes" not that bad.....

it does sound better then "organisation"

Onizuka-gto 11:51, 26 April 2006 (PDT)


Nah, I still prefer Organisation to Institute - the latter doesn't quite sound right and I get the impression it's not so Global from such a word. I can go with it, but my vote's still on Organisation.

And of course, the above line can be changed to something like "So this group/association of yours, The Organization, what does it do?"

--Psieye 13:17, 26 April 2006 (PDT)


Hi, newcomer here giving my two cents:

How about the word "order"? "Order" carries a connotation of covertness and "cultishness", which might be what we're looking for here. It implies that the group exists for a special purpose -- that they're mere instruments or disciples serving a greater cause.

The thing I don't like about "order" though is that it also carries religious undertones.

Synecdoche 14:55, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, "order" for me, doesn't seem to fit.

it seems to me that "organisation" is the best fit, Sounless three other users support an alternative we will be back to deadlock, but hopefully it will not come to that and we will finally have a solution to this. Just pasted 2300hours UTC gentlemen. Times ticking, i'll be back to check on this before it's midnight.

Onizuka-gto 15:13, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Guess it's decided then.

"Organisation" it is.

Onizuka-gto 17:08, 26 April 2006 (PDT)
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