What I think needs changing is that "coffee" is not something you can usually refer to with a number, like "one." You can refer to a cup of coffee with a count, but that is not how the current sentance is structured. I am going to change "one" to "it" for now, but I'm not sure I'm happy with that phrasing. Anyone else have any ideas?Mmm, too sweet, he should've bought one with less sugar.
[ch 5] Coffee
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BlckKnght
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[ch 5] Coffee
I'm trying to rewrite the sentance:
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the_naming_game
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It's kind of relaxing to bring one's forces to bear on a single, poor, defenseless sentence. Especially one where the translated meaning is simple enough to be unambiguous. None of that pesky "I wonder what the original Japanese said" business.
If I imagine myself as Kyon, in that situation, with a cup of too-sweet coffee, these are the sentences I'd probably be thinking.
edit:
Just wanted to add that I only used the "Mmm, too sweet" as a jumping off point, and then without any real reference to the original sentence, tried to express the thought in whatever English came immediately to mind. I find that that it helps a lot when trying to think up rewordings.
(And yeah, I realize all this is pretty much overkill for just one sentence.)
If I imagine myself as Kyon, in that situation, with a cup of too-sweet coffee, these are the sentences I'd probably be thinking.
As a point of reference, my particular dialect of English is mostly-educated American English, though I try to keep a cap on the overly stuffy elocutions. It's hard though, since they're so tempting. Oh, and of course, mix that with the typical pop culture brainwashing that most Americans go through, though I disconnected from that a few years ago.He should'veless sugar.
- asked for
- ordered
- got one/it with (this choice is a distant third, honestly. and I have no particular preference for either of "one/it.")
edit:
Just wanted to add that I only used the "Mmm, too sweet" as a jumping off point, and then without any real reference to the original sentence, tried to express the thought in whatever English came immediately to mind. I find that that it helps a lot when trying to think up rewordings.
(And yeah, I realize all this is pretty much overkill for just one sentence.)
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Kinny Riddle
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the_naming_game
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- Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 6:36 am
- Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
(setting sugarcubes aside for the moment. interesting to note that detail, though.)
I guess it's entirely a feel thing. In context, both "He should've ordered less sugar." and "He should've ordered this coffee with less sugar." say the exact same thing to me, but the shorter one is what I'd likely say on the spur of the moment. (The fact that the thought is referring to coffee with less sugar, and not to ordering less bags of sugar from some warehouse, is entirely through context. Judging when it's more natural to leave things out and assume context, is instinct, I suppose.) I suppose it's a dilemma between balancing mood and meaning.
One example I've noticed from Japanese, is the "I'll never forgive this!" idiom. It just doesn't sound that good in English, but there's really no direct correlate. "You won't get away with this" is corny, even though people (at least in movies) do actually say this.
The "never forgive" sentiment would usually be communicated in English indirectly. As in "No matter how far you think you've run, it won't be enough. Because I will hunt you down, and I will make your remaining time on this earth as painful as possible." (imagine some spaghetti Western) -- but if there is no sentence in which you can indirectly communicate "unforgiveness," then you're stuck, and you just have to state it awkwardly. ("I will never forget what you did to me" works, but not universally. I've heard it used in courtroom dramas.)
Anyway ... translation issues, very messy if you want to be perfectionist about it -- am learning that every time I touch this project. I'm actually fine with any of the possible sentences.
So how can I explain having written so much in this topic ... ? Because it was under discussion, and using the method described (here is the thought -- "koizumi has ordered coffee that was too sweet" -- If you were thinking that, what phrases would be going through your head?), the answer was immediate. Other than that, I guess I enjoy discussing these things.
About the sugarcubes:
Does the phrase in Chinese need the "sugarcube" designation in order to sound right? What I mean is -- is the sugarcube thing an idiom, or was it an actual translation choice, in your estimation? Would it sound just as natural in Chinese to say "not enough sugar"?
edit ... (circa 6-8 hours later?)
Just realized that I probably sounded incredibly flippant about the whole thing. I don't discuss these things JUST for the heck of it. I actually do believe in what I'm arguing for. I just don't believe that what I'm arguing for is SO much better than the alternatives, that it's worth being insistent about it.
And this is going to sound trite, but uh ... I really appreciate the translation job you're doing. (first time I've had a chance to "talk" to you directly, so I guess I'm allowed a little triteness.) I actually knew you were pretty fast before, but I didn't realize just how fast, until Volume 2. (The worst of the withdrawal symptoms are over now, though)
I guess it's entirely a feel thing. In context, both "He should've ordered less sugar." and "He should've ordered this coffee with less sugar." say the exact same thing to me, but the shorter one is what I'd likely say on the spur of the moment. (The fact that the thought is referring to coffee with less sugar, and not to ordering less bags of sugar from some warehouse, is entirely through context. Judging when it's more natural to leave things out and assume context, is instinct, I suppose.) I suppose it's a dilemma between balancing mood and meaning.
One example I've noticed from Japanese, is the "I'll never forgive this!" idiom. It just doesn't sound that good in English, but there's really no direct correlate. "You won't get away with this" is corny, even though people (at least in movies) do actually say this.
The "never forgive" sentiment would usually be communicated in English indirectly. As in "No matter how far you think you've run, it won't be enough. Because I will hunt you down, and I will make your remaining time on this earth as painful as possible." (imagine some spaghetti Western) -- but if there is no sentence in which you can indirectly communicate "unforgiveness," then you're stuck, and you just have to state it awkwardly. ("I will never forget what you did to me" works, but not universally. I've heard it used in courtroom dramas.)
Anyway ... translation issues, very messy if you want to be perfectionist about it -- am learning that every time I touch this project. I'm actually fine with any of the possible sentences.
So how can I explain having written so much in this topic ... ? Because it was under discussion, and using the method described (here is the thought -- "koizumi has ordered coffee that was too sweet" -- If you were thinking that, what phrases would be going through your head?), the answer was immediate. Other than that, I guess I enjoy discussing these things.
About the sugarcubes:
Does the phrase in Chinese need the "sugarcube" designation in order to sound right? What I mean is -- is the sugarcube thing an idiom, or was it an actual translation choice, in your estimation? Would it sound just as natural in Chinese to say "not enough sugar"?
edit ... (circa 6-8 hours later?)
Just realized that I probably sounded incredibly flippant about the whole thing. I don't discuss these things JUST for the heck of it. I actually do believe in what I'm arguing for. I just don't believe that what I'm arguing for is SO much better than the alternatives, that it's worth being insistent about it.
And this is going to sound trite, but uh ... I really appreciate the translation job you're doing. (first time I've had a chance to "talk" to you directly, so I guess I'm allowed a little triteness.) I actually knew you were pretty fast before, but I didn't realize just how fast, until Volume 2. (The worst of the withdrawal symptoms are over now, though)