Ookami to Koushinryou / Wolf and Spice

[AlephNull]

Something to think about for now: Regarding the unique manner of Horo's speech, someone suggested Shakespearean earlier, but I think that's too strong. Consider Ista's manner of speech and thought in Lois McMaster Bujold's novel, "The Curse of Chalion". It is at times high-born and courtly, but far from Shakespearean. There are other qualities to it as well, I can't properly describe it any further, if anyone's interested you'll have to read it for yourself. (I'll see if I can think up other similar examples. It's an excellent book btw.) Would that be a good English parallel to Horo's? It's also useful to keep in mind what Koshimizu Ami said about her role as Horo, in particular that "If you overdo it, it becomes like dialect." I think the key is really a light touch, not a heavy one. I haven't translated anything related to her beyond her thoughts in the prologue, so I can't properly judge for myself yet.

The other characters also seem to use oldish speech, other characters from Bujold's Chalion series, Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea series and the non-hobbit characters from Lord of the Rings might be useful models as well. Outside of character speech, is the general style of writing also oldish (to a lesser degree)? The pages I've worked on so far seem pretty normal.

[AlephNull]

A rewritten prologue, somewhat more in the style of what I was describing above, as well as fixing some goofs. Does this manner of writing work/fit?

Spoiler! :

　この村では、見事に実った麦穂が風に揺られることお狼が走るという。
　風に揺られる様子が、麦畑｛むぎほ｝の中お狼｛オオカミ｝が走ているように見えるからだ。
　また、風が強すぎて麦穂が倒れることお狼踏まれたといい、不作の時わおお神に食われたという。
　上手｛うま｝い表現だが、迷惑なものもあるのが玉に瑕｛きず｝だな、と思った。
　しかし、今となってはちょっとした洒落｛しゃれ｝た言い方になっているだけで、昔のように親しみと恐れおこめてその言葉お使う者わほんとんどいない。
　ゆらゆらと揺られる麦穂の間から見える秋の空は何百年も変わらないのに、その下の様子はじつに様変わりおしていた。
　来る年も来る年も、麦お育ててきたこの村の者達も、せいぜい長生きして七十年なのだ。
　むしろ何百年も変わらないほうが悪いのかもしれない。
　ただ、だからもう昔の約束お律儀｛りちぎ｝に守る必要はないのかもしれないと思った。
　何よりも、自分はもうここではひつようとされていないともった。
　東にそびえる山のせいで、村の空お流れる雲わたいてい北へと向かっていく。
　その雲の流れる先、北の胡郷のことお思い出してため息おつく。
　視線お空から麦穂戻せば、鼻先で揺れる自慢｛じまん｝の尻尾｛しっぽ｝が目に入った。
　することもないので尻尾の毛づくろいに取り掛かる。

In this village, they say that when the resplendently ripened ears of wheat are swaying in the wind, the wolves are running. (1)
From their appearance, swaying in the wind, you can make out what seems like wolves running in the wheat fields.
Also, they say that when the wind is too strong and the wheat stalks fall over, the wolves have trampled them. When the harvest is poor, it is said that the wolves have eaten it.
All appears well on the exterior, but trouble lurks like a flaw in a gem, so it is thought. (?)
Such things are spoken lightly and casually nowadays, whilst fewer and fewer people say them with the affection and fear of old. (?)(2)
Looking up from amidst the gently swaying ears of wheat, while the autumn sky hasn't changed in hundreds of years, the world below has in fact changed completely.
The people of this village who tend the wheat, passing year after passing year, live for at most seventy years.
If I had to say, then I'd say that hundreds of years of stasis is bad. (?)(3)
Or just, they think it's no longer necessary to honour the agreement of old, perhaps. (?)(4)
Ultimately, I feel I'm not needed here anymore.(?)(5)
Because of the mountains rising up in the east, the clouds in the village sky generally drift towards the north.
Where they are headed lies the northern country, the memories of which evoke a sigh. (6)
Would I return my gaze from the sky to the wheat, I should see my proud tail wagging before my nose. (?)(7)
With nothing else to do, I set about grooming it.

(1) [[ Literally, I think it should be "In this village, the beautifully ripened ears of wheat swaying in the wind _are_ said to be the wolves running.", not merely that there is some correlation between the wheat swaying and the wolves running. But this sounds odd. Same deal with the first half of the third sentence. Best I could come up with was to insert "when", but the text here makes no reference to time, unlike the second half of the third sentence (時). Also, should I go with "it is said", instead of "they said"? ]]
(2) [[ I'm not sure whether Horo here is merely stating an adage she believes in, or whether she thinks that there's actually trouble lurking in this village, maybe the text is deliberately vague ? I suspect the と思った is literal here. ]]
(3) [[ What exactly does むしろ mean? How about "Perchance hundreds of years of stasis is bad."? ]]
(4) [[ What does the ただ mean here exactly? There are furigana beside 律儀; could they mean some kind of emphasis? Do authors use furigana for emphasis? Is such emphasis similar to italics in English prose? ]]
(5) [[ What exactly does 何よりも mean here? ]]
(6) [[ Is this too strong? Alternatively: ", and a sigh escapes as I remember it." ]]
(7) [[ Should this be "Returning my gaze from the sky to the wheat, I see my proud tail wagging before my nose." instead? Does a ーば suffix always mean a conditional statement? There are also furigana next to 自慢 and 尻尾, even though they are both fairly common compounds. Could this be emphasis as well, representing how Horo regards her tail with special pride? Would italics work here? ]]


　秋の空は高く、とても澄んでいた。
　今年もまた収穫の時期がくる。
　麦畑お、たくさんの狼｛オオカミ｝が走っていた。

The high autumn sky, so clear.
Harvest time has come again this year.
Many wolves are running through the wheat fields.

[[ Does rhymy work here? These three lines in the Japanese text seem verse-like. ]]

[Kaisos Erranon]

A rewritten prologue, somewhat more in the style of what I was describing above, as well as fixing some goofs. Does this manner of writing work/fit?

Spoiler! :

　この村では、見事に実った麦穂が風に揺られることお狼が走るという。
　風に揺られる様子が、麦畑｛むぎほ｝の中お狼｛オオカミ｝が走ているように見えるからだ。
　また、風が強すぎて麦穂が倒れることお狼踏まれたといい、不作の時わおお神に食われたという。
　上手｛うま｝い表現だが、迷惑なものもあるのが玉に瑕｛きず｝だな、と思った。
　しかし、今となってはちょっとした洒落｛しゃれ｝た言い方になっているだけで、昔のように親しみと恐れおこめてその言葉お使う者わほんとんどいない。
　ゆらゆらと揺られる麦穂の間から見える秋の空は何百年も変わらないのに、その下の様子はじつに様変わりおしていた。
　来る年も来る年も、麦お育ててきたこの村の者達も、せいぜい長生きして七十年なのだ。
　むしろ何百年も変わらないほうが悪いのかもしれない。
　ただ、だからもう昔の約束お律儀｛りちぎ｝に守る必要はないのかもしれないと思った。
　何よりも、自分はもうここではひつようとされていないともった。
　東にそびえる山のせいで、村の空お流れる雲わたいてい北へと向かっていく。
　その雲の流れる先、北の胡郷のことお思い出してため息おつく。
　視線お空から麦穂戻せば、鼻先で揺れる自慢｛じまん｝の尻尾｛しっぽ｝が目に入った。
　することもないので尻尾の毛づくろいに取り掛かる。

In this village, they say that when the resplendently ripened ears of wheat are swaying in the wind, the wolves are running. (1)
From their appearance, swaying in the wind, you can make out what seems like wolves running in the wheat fields.
Also, they say that when the wind is too strong and the wheat stalks fall over, the wolves have trampled them. When the harvest is poor, it is said that the wolves have eaten it.
All appears well on the exterior, but trouble lurks like a flaw in a gem, so it is thought. (?)
Such things are spoken lightly and casually nowadays, whilst fewer and fewer people say them with the affection and fear of old. (?)(2)
Looking up from amidst the gently swaying ears of wheat, while the autumn sky hasn't changed in hundreds of years, the world below has in fact changed completely.
The people of this village who tend the wheat, passing year after passing year, live for at most seventy years.
If I had to say, then I'd say that hundreds of years of stasis is bad. (?)(3)
Or just, they think it's no longer necessary to honour the agreement of old, perhaps. (?)(4)
Ultimately, I feel I'm not needed here anymore.(?)(5)
Because of the mountains rising up in the east, the clouds in the village sky generally drift towards the north.
Where they are headed lies the northern country, the memories of which evoke a sigh. (6)
Would I return my gaze from the sky to the wheat, I should see my proud tail wagging before my nose. (?)(7)
With nothing else to do, I set about grooming it.

(1) [[ Literally, I think it should be "In this village, the beautifully ripened ears of wheat swaying in the wind _are_ said to be the wolves running.", not merely that there is some correlation between the wheat swaying and the wolves running. But this sounds odd. Same deal with the first half of the third sentence. Best I could come up with was to insert "when", but the text here makes no reference to time, unlike the second half of the third sentence (時). Also, should I go with "it is said", instead of "they said"? ]]
(2) [[ I'm not sure whether Horo here is merely stating an adage she believes in, or whether she thinks that there's actually trouble lurking in this village, maybe the text is deliberately vague ? I suspect the と思った is literal here. ]]
(3) [[ What exactly does むしろ mean? How about "Perchance hundreds of years of stasis is bad."? ]]
(4) [[ What does the ただ mean here exactly? There are furigana beside 律儀; could they mean some kind of emphasis? Do authors use furigana for emphasis? Is such emphasis similar to italics in English prose? ]]
(5) [[ What exactly does 何よりも mean here? ]]
(6) [[ Is this too strong? Alternatively: ", and a sigh escapes as I remember it." ]]
(7) [[ Should this be "Returning my gaze from the sky to the wheat, I see my proud tail wagging before my nose." instead? Does a ーば suffix always mean a conditional statement? There are also furigana next to 自慢 and 尻尾, even though they are both fairly common compounds. Could this be emphasis as well, representing how Horo regards her tail with special pride? Would italics work here? ]]


　秋の空は高く、とても澄んでいた。
　今年もまた収穫の時期がくる。
　麦畑お、たくさんの狼｛オオカミ｝が走っていた。

The high autumn sky, so clear.
Harvest time has come again this year.
Many wolves are running through the wheat fields.

[[ Does rhymy work here? These three lines in the Japanese text seem verse-like. ]]

Wouldn't use "stasis". Too modern of a word.

[AlephNull]

Do you mean "stasis"? If so, dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster both date it's origin as 1745 or earlier. Why do you feel it's too modern?

[AlephNull]

I've been translating into British English so far, but the General Format/Style Guideline seems to suggest that American English is the norm for english projects. Should I make the switch? I'm more used to working in British English, but I don't mind switching over if need be.

[Dan]

Wow, alomst 200 people want it translated. I didn't know that many visited this forum.

[onizuka-gto]

I've been translating into British English so far, but the General Format/Style Guideline seems to suggest that American English is the norm for english projects. Should I make the switch? I'm more used to working in British English, but I don't mind switching over if need be.

Well you see it will save us a lot of heartfelt grief if we stick to American English, as i believe there will be less confusion by helpful readers.

besides us Brits are far more adaptable then our American cousins in such things, but it is up to you as we have specific guidelines for each project.

The general is just that, a general sort of thing.

[TheGiftedMonkey]

besides us Brits are far more adaptable then our American cousins in such things, but it is up to you as we have specific guidelines for each project.

Oi, I can understand Brit ramblings just fine. After talking to Symph for so long I became pretty good at it. I wonder where she is anyways...

[onizuka-gto]

besides us Brits are far more adaptable then our American cousins in such things, but it is up to you as we have specific guidelines for each project.

Oi, I can understand Brit ramblings just fine. After talking to Symph for so long I became pretty good at it. I wonder where she is anyways...

Only two things keeps a women occupied.

Work and a karashi

[Kaisos Erranon]

Do you mean "stasis"? If so, dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster both date it's origin as 1745 or earlier. Why do you feel it's too modern?

Whoa, my bad. Misspelling.

"Stasis" has too many connotations in science fiction for me. Like someone who's "in stasis".

Eh, I just think another word would work better.

[AlephNull]

Draft of the first few pages is up on the Chapter 1 Discussion Page. I've moved the 'stasis' discussion there; think the wiki may be a better place for discussing specifics. If you have pretty good knowledge of Japanese, please, please go over, take a look and comment. I'd really like to get feed-back on my Japanese, which I've not had before.

I'm going with American English for the translation.

And what's a karashi?

EDIT: the word 'feed back' (delete the space) gets displayed as 'poke' when you Preview or Submit. What gives?

[onizuka-gto]

...And what's a kareshi?

*wiggles his little finger*

彼氏 (かれし), Koibito, otoko-hito, dorei, ボーイフレンド ....

you get the picture.




edit: just had a look at the nw scripts on the wiki, gochisosama alephnull.

but lets discuss the method you used in it, here is something that i had talked to AlephNull in a P.M that i think should be discussed here:

but i see what you did, translating it line by line in the discussion page, while i can see the point, but it does look a bit cluttered

to be honest, i never liked the "draft" method, because technically every article not locked are defined as "draft" because they are open to users to refine.

If you are determined to display the script such as you have done now, then i think it's best you just move it to the front page, my initial idea was to use the discussion page purely for the japanese.

This is pointless now.

The good thing about the wiki, is that once your satisfied with a sentence, we can just "hide" the Japanese from the general readers, without deleting it when it is done.

we use a lot of hidden text in Baka-Tsuki projects, because most readers "don't care" how we got something or what it meant, they just don't want the "magic" interrupted by an annoying bracket [lolol! he said %^&! but it could be $^$^? maa naa ] <_ hate that. D:

so usually we hide this comments with the <!-- Hide text --> tags, so that those people who are interested, can see them when they want to "edit" the script.

its a very useful thing, and it makes our scripts look clean and almost professional like.

[AlephNull]

It's 'gokurousama' (literally something like 'You've been working hard.'). 'gochisosama' is what you say to the host after a meal

Regarding formatting of the page, the thing is I'd like it if people could do the discussion right on top of the Japanese text and translation, rather than say read my comments via Edit and then reply in the discussion page. Or read my translation in one page (main), and then have to cross reference it with the original Japanese in another (discussion). If I was sufficiently confident of my translation, say I feel I'll make at most one major mistake every page, and I didn't have this many questions to ask, then these approaches may be better, since people wouldn't have to flip back and forth often. But that's not the case right now, which is why I think it's best to put the Japanese text, English translation and comments in the same place.

I'm not sure if this is feasible yet, since it'll put a lot of stuff in one wiki page, which can be hard to manage. I was thinking of trying this out for a few days first to see how it goes. I know that main page articles are still drafts, that's the whole point of a wiki in fact, but my translation is a particularly inaccurate draft, not fit for 'public consumption' yet, and also I think it first needs specific attention from just those people who have Japanese language skills, rather than the general public. I felt that putting it in some place like the discussion page would be better. Once translation inaccuracies are dealt with, we can move pages to the main page and remove the brackets and stuff, then people can do general editing. Putting all this in the discussion page may hide in from most of the general public, meanwhile I've PMed the translators from other projects asking for a review of my translation, and telling them about this unique setup. If you still prefer to put all this in the main page though, I'm fine with it.


Putting these three things together does look cluttered, in particular the brackets in the middle of sentences. I've moved longer comments to footnotes at the bottom of each section (page), but left shorter ones inside the translation so that people don't have to refer back and forth so often. To anyone who's critiquing the translation (thanks!), how does all this look? If it's too messy, I can try something else.


Btw Mew thanks for the raw text file. I'm now using that as a base and making corrections to it, much faster than typing everything in from scratch.

I won't be putting up any more pages for the next few days, just going to see how things go with the draft first.

[onizuka-gto]

It's 'gokurousama' (literally something like 'You've been working hard.'). 'gochisosama' is what you say to the host after a meal

Regarding formatting of the page, the thing is I'd like it if people could do the discussion right on top of the Japanese text and translation, rather than say read my comments via Edit and then reply in the discussion page. Or read my translation in one page (main), and then have to cross reference it with the original Japanese in another (discussion). If I was sufficiently confident of my translation, say I feel I'll make at most one major mistake every page, and I didn't have this many questions to ask, then these approaches may be better, since people wouldn't have to flip back and forth often. But that's not the case right now, which is why I think it's best to put the Japanese text, English translation and comments in the same place.

imagining how chaotic this page will look like if it has discussion upon discussion upon it almost had me in fits.



there is another factor concerning this approach, we have found that having too much traffic on the wiki, speeds up the unreliability of the database coding. The server the wiki is held on does have it's fits, and we are aware of the " all your eggs in one basket" thing.

this is why, we now have a forum and i moved all past discussion to here.

While the wiki has been updated and i think its more reliable a year on, i still like to treat the "basket" carefully.

well, there really isn't much the case of "flipping" we in the age of multiple tabbed browsers, i never click on anything, i just flip tabs and refresh.

Also having so many people editing and using a page which a script in on, is a good way of causing bugs on the wiki, that is why separate pages are used when ever possible.

If you are determined to have comments, included on that one page, then i have to suggest that you segment the pages with 2nd tier headings.

i.e.

Code: Select all

 == Add heading here == 

or even 3rd tier

Code: Select all

 === Add subtitle here === 

this splits the page into edible subsections. It also reduce the strain on the server/wiki database as the page is divided and more user can edit the same page without causing too much conflict or bugs.

personally i think its going to look a real mess if you want to continue with "everything on one page! Yay!" thing.

but what im i to deprave myself of saying "I told you so" , hmm?

[TheGiftedMonkey]

Started watching the anime today. I'm hooked.