Seperate Japanese & Chinese Source

[onizuka-gto]

he initial drive to accept this project for "Education Purposes" stem from the fact that it was difficult to find an experienced Japanese language Translator, which is the default requirement for any project we have here.

This exception was at leased a compromise to at leased give an excuse to spearhead on to this interesting novel series, think of it as a "legal loop-hole", as the general guidelines were set-up as so to prevent unrealistic projects with no support.


However as things has progressed, we have now be fortunate to have not just Japanese but also the Chinese version, this of course opens up a far more realistic prospect as a translation project and not just one for "educational purposes" with no real chance of interest.

The reality i am trying to say is that the project now has experienced Chinese translators, and thus the progress of the translation can be processed and organised like other projects we have here.

Their are two type of readers we have here, those who are genuinely interested in the educational approach we have set-up here, the learning aspect of translating the Japanese into English.

But on the other hand, we have the users who come here with the specific intend to just enjoy and read the novel and will not be interested in the Japanese -> English translating aspect of it. No doubt they would of been absolutely baffled with the disorganization of the current situation that would only interest those who are in for the translating aspect.

We could only cater for those in the first batch, this was unavoidable due to the human resources we had at the time, but now this is different.

We can now provide a normal B-T translation set-up, with the help of the Chinese translation side.

Now the question has to be put forth to those interested in translating Spice & Wolf to consider this.

I do not want to stop the current Japanese translation effort, because foremost, this is what we as Baka-Tsuki stand for, a hobby to enjoy.

But realistically, we must need a more organised project page layout, to allow those users who wish to read and enjoy this novel.

So, i wish propose that we separate the Chinese translation, so that we can have clear pages of translated text, similar to other projects we have here.

I would like as much input as i can get, do you think it's a good idea?

yes? no?

if no. why?

should we reorganise the page layout?

or should we just let this be?

should we ignore the users who just want to read the novel?

[Smidge204]

I'll certainly support the separation of Chinese & Japanese translations if you intend to keep the new + original text mixed like it is now.

However I'm skeptical of the true educational value of the idea, as it is now. I really don't think it's enough to just have the original + translated text. What is required is some explanation of how one becomes the other. For example (just an example, mind you): color highlighting words to match vocabulary and providing notes on things like particle usage and verb conjugation.

That would be a lot more work, obviously, but without it I don't see any real educational value.
=Smidge=

[onizuka-gto]

Yes, the current Japanese translation effort will remain, with original text included.

I understand your reservation about the "educational" aspects of it, at the moment i have trouble even navigating the project, let along try to read the story.

i can see your point about the "highlight" and the lack of technical translation notes, but that cannot be helped without experienced Japanese translators, i think they would have enough trouble with the page as it is.

But putting this aside for now, i think one of the points i don't think i stated in my previous comment, was should i keep consider the idea of asking the Chinese translators for this project to do chapters, straight into English, so it can be published on the wiki, in standard Baka-Tsuki style?
for either:

1) Putting it either on the front pages for the state chapters

2) Putting it on a separate page, and linking it to the same project page

3) create a new project, to differentiate between the two projects

[Smidge204]

To be honest, I never understood why we never just did it like a normal project from the start. The whole double-language page seems like a lot of extra work with no real benefit other than potentially faster TLC - but if the translators would put <!-- page ## --> inline the text it would be just as easy to TLC and a lot easier to read/edit.

Also, we have this handy little fellow:

=={{edit separation|Page ###}}==

Works great.

K.I.S.S.
=Smidge=

[onizuka-gto]

To be honest, I never understood why we never just did it like a normal project from the start. The whole double-language page seems like a lot of extra work with no real benefit other than potentially faster TLC - but if the translators would put <!-- page ## --> inline the text it would be just as easy to TLC and a lot easier to read/edit.

Also, we have this handy little fellow:

=={{edit separation|Page ###}}==

Works great.

K.I.S.S.
=Smidge=

well i have to take the blame for this, because of the lack of interest, the only offer was from alephnull, who was not an experienced Japanese translator.

And since i did not wish to mislead anyone as to consider this as a normal project with full translation, i made an exception under "educational purposes" i had hope that this would eventually draw the attention of more experienced Japanese translator.

However since i did not know how to proceed for this type of project, i left it to Alephnull to managed it.

Well, as you can, this is the result.

But now the situation is different and we have contributors who can help use proceed as usual.

the question now, is how to integrate it into the existing Spice & Wolf project pages, and if not, how to do this so that both the Japanese educational side can still co-exist with the traditional B-T translation effort?
Is it impossible to do this ,without a complete re-organisation and reformat of layout for the entire project?

questions that i haven't really found the answers to yet.

[barbsicle]

onizuka:
i have begun taking down my page contributions on the wiki until we reach a proper decision.

i would go for option 2. having a separate link would indeed lighten confusion on the first batch of people, the ones interested in the educational approach. i also think it wouldn't spoil the story for them as they read in Japanese.

also, on the note of pages, i have realised that the Chinese novels take up sometimes more, and sometimes less space, and thus page 30 on the Japanese version would become page 31 on the Chinese version, give or take a few lines.

therefore if we shift the Chinese pages, we have to also consider whether to follow Japanese paging style (which I haven't found too hard on the two occasions I had to refer) or the Chinese paging style. although this is rather minor I feel that if we follow the Japanese paging style then we can have comparisons of translation and help each other edit large mistakes in translating, if any.

as always, thanks for hearing the Chinese side out.

[onizuka-gto]

You do not have to worry about following the Japanese source layout, since i'm proposing in using the Chinese translation in standard fashion, i.e. not for "Educational purposes" the layout will resemble more like Suzumiya Haruhi.

Meaning no need to publish the Chinese text with the English translation and not on the "discussion" page.

Just a question Barbsicle, do you have a complete translation of the prologue and/or chapter 1 of Spice & Wolf in English?

[barbsicle]

no, onizuka. i started from page 27. i still have the main idea of the prologue+the front parts in my head so i can start from there and go full speed if you'd like me to.

and you can msn me so i can start asap. haha.

[onizuka-gto]

no, onizuka. i started from page 27. i still have the main idea of the prologue+the front parts in my head so i can start from there and go full speed if you'd like me to.

and you can msn me so i can start asap. haha.

hmmm....msn is a problem, haven't used it for ages and i can't remember my login (since this was a new laptop) im a google mail person anyway.

Well, i would like if you can start from the prologue, might as well start from a clear beginning.

not sure if we should link it to the "Educational" overview page, for now please publish the script on the wiki, and put the link on this thread, please?

we'll decide later what to do with them.

p.s: you also need to request to join the translators group, just click "USER CONTROL PANEL", then select "usergroup" tab, find the translators group, and send in a request to join.

Also do you use the same wiki-username as you use here? if not, please tell me so i know it's you.

thanks in advance, barbsicle.

[barbsicle]

haha well i just thought maybe msn would get the message over faster.

indeed i shall start, onizuka, and i'll follow as you say and sign up on the translator's usergroup.
*EDIT*: it says i require an invitation from a group leader. lol oh well.

i'll put the link up once i get the prologue pages done.

and yes, i use the same wiki-username.

thanks alot too!

[TheGiftedMonkey]

haha well i just thought maybe msn would get the message over faster.

indeed i shall start, onizuka, and i'll follow as you say and sign up on the translator's usergroup.
*EDIT*: it says i require an invitation from a group leader. lol oh well.

i'll put the link up once i get the prologue pages done.

and yes, i use the same wiki-username.

thanks alot too!

IRC is the best place to talk to some of the BT staff. Sadly some don't log on there anymore for various reasons... *cough* Oni-kun *cough* You CAN find me on there every day though if you have questions.

[barbsicle]

yeah i noted the irc and logged on to be greeted by Smidge. i guess i'll frequent there from now on. haha.

wow, purple tag's on so fast. thanks alot for the invite guys. i'm now official. lol.

on another note; i have finished the prequel! sadly, it's about almost 12 here and i have to be going off to sleep about now, so work on chapter 1 will start tomorrow.

the link to the wiki page i put up (i spruced the front parts also):http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... sh_Version

now i know how tough it is to work as a translator. but i am glad to say that i am proud of my first contribution to B-T!

so i'll see you guys around tomorrow. haha. *yawn*

[onizuka-gto]

thank you barbsicles! i see what you did there, even tagged it.

So we have the Chinese side, im still wondering if it's justified to have two projects separated by language source?

We never made much distinctions before, and i do not want to start now.

Maybe we should simply reformat the overview page of the "education" project to accommodate the Chinese versions?

i don't like the idea that we will have to double a registration page as well.

hmmm.... comments?

[TheGiftedMonkey]

Why not just expand it to "education" by translating from multiple languages. I don't see it being much of a change anyways. Educating people in multiple language translation to english.

/shrugs

Oh and welcome to the BT Barb if I didn't welcome you already.

[barbsicle]

thanks alot. haha.

actually, either way it's fine for me. maybe what oni wants is a smoother sentence flow so you dont read with breaks between each sentence. but after doing the prologue i realise there are hardly any paragraph breaks anyway. lol.

but yeah i'm still more for integrating it into the main project page after all B-T is meant to be a Jap-Eng translations site. suddenly having a Chinese-Eng project would make it feel a bit awkward no?