Time to talk style guidelines

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Ulrezaj
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Time to talk style guidelines

Post by Ulrezaj »

With the number of regular translators increasing, and large chunks of work getting done, we need to discuss style guidelines specific to this series. I've already put in few naming conventions but those are for the most part pretty arbitrary, based on what I feel sounds right. There are a few points we need to discuss:

Names
The setting is of heavy middle ages european influence so I believe names should reflect that. Horo would be an exception, as one assumes she was named many hundreds of years before the story takes place and so would have a completely different etymology to her name. As a point of interest, "Laurence" in its current form popped up around 1200 in our history, and the Scots were using the pet form, Lowrie, to refer to foxes and crafty people in general. So for names, I think they should take on general latin/german syllabic structures. As I said there's a few up already on the wiki but there are a lot of names. I haven't even started on all the coins yet.

Horo's speech
In the novels she uses a slightly older form of speech with elements that can still be seen in okayama or oosaka dialects. Details aside, it's nothing as archaic as shakespearean english is for us. It's more akin to, perhaps, educated english in the early 1900s. Think Sherlock Holmes. Regardless, I don't see a need to overly differentiate her style. Her speech should reflect her character - aloof, impulsive at times, mildly patronizing.

Grammar
The story is written in third person past. Similarly to the Haruhi novels, speech is not done inline, and usually isn't attributed. See the first dozen or so lines of Haruhi vol 1 ch 2 for an example of what I mean. I see no reason not to keep this style.

One final thing to make clear: the Japanese version is canon. Any dispute over source translation will go to the japanese version.

Also, this post is an informative post, as I will be going ahead with writing the guidelines specifically. If you want to dispute any points, which I welcome you to, please do it on the wiki discussion page.
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Krikit
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by Krikit »

Ulrezaj wrote:With the number of regular translators increasing, and large chunks of work getting done,
haha :o
Ulrezaj wrote:Horo's speech
In the novels she uses a slightly older form of speech with elements that can still be seen in okayama or oosaka dialects. Details aside, it's nothing as archaic as shakespearean english is for us. It's more akin to, perhaps, educated english in the early 1900s. Think Sherlock Holmes. Regardless, I don't see a need to overly differentiate her style. Her speech should reflect her character - aloof, impulsive at times, mildly patronizing.
I found the best way to represent Horo speech. What we were looking for is an older form of english, but not filled with "haveth at thee! thine blood shalt fortwith be spilt upon this holiest of ground!" we don't want that...what we want is actually found in the 21st Century King James Bible. Compare Horo's speech to the way Jesus talks in this rendition. It's an older form of english without being filled with words that are un-intelligible. If you read the stuff by the disciples or others, it's harder to understand than Jesus' speech, and I don't think Horo's speech is this old. So just look at how Jesus talks, and reference in mine-my, etc. However, if horo uses standard japanese for a word, it will be translated as thus. This is for "wacchi" and the like mainly.

http://bibleresources.bible.com/passage ... ersion1=48
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Centu ... es_Version

Just look for the text where Jesus is talking. Horo's "wacchi" instead of "watashi" can be akin to "mine" as opposed to "my"

Sentence example: "wacchi no namae wa Horo ja" ---> "mine name is Horo ya." (The part I'm not sure about is the ja--->ya. Horo says ja alot at the end of sentences, and I think ya accurately represents this. However, it must be noted that it makes the sentence sound really really strange...dattebayo) It seems a bit strange, but that's how it's supposed to be. In Japanese, you say "watashi." "wacchi" is just as strange as saying "mine..."

How it would be in 'normal' japanese: "watashi no namae wa Horo" ---> "my name is Horo." add desu to make it more polite.
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ShApEsHiFt3r
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by ShApEsHiFt3r »

Please don't ever write "mine name is" or I won't be able to take it, because even my lazy self's hand would be itching to move the mouse up and press the edit button xD

There has to be a better way to translate that ^^`

I'm guessing ja is simply an old form of desu(de), so there's no need to translate it.

It will be fine to translate wacchi as "I" too...

Can't you just translate it as "I am named Horo." or something like that?( And the equivalent for more complicated sentences) It sounds old enough, as no one would say it like that nowadays, while at the same time it's understandable...

Ahh *goes into happy and careless mode, while listening to Tabi no Tochuu, that just started playing on animenfo radio"

Anyway, I hope I helped(confused) you at least a bit :P
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by Krikit »

lol, confusion ftw =).

Hmm...actually, I really can't read the Japanese text well right now, so I'm not sure how it is structured in Japanese...but what I do know is that Horo does say "wacchi" instead of "watashi," which means at least that word is said with an older form of referring to oneself. maybe 'mine' might not be right..but if that is the word, then it has to sound similarly as wierd in japanese right? reading "wacchi" instead of "watashi", would be similar to...mine...i guess....but would changing the sentence form to a different word being what the old accent is, does it work?

"wacchi wa Horo ja" ... "I am called Horo..." well, not that I think about it...it does seem to be more of a refined, dignified way of referring to oneself, similar to bragging or acting more important, than saying "my name's Horo." And Horo does tend to think of herself with quite a bit of pride...maybe it is okay to do this....

There was a comment about educated english in the early 1900's, aka Sherlock Holmes. I never read that yet, is there a way for an example from the text to be posted??

Thanks for the supporting argument shifter =)
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barbsicle
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by barbsicle »

well by far i have no problem following the guidelines. they're easy to except for Horo's speech. i suppose this is a very debatable topic.

for me in chapter 1 i've just made Horo talk like anyone would talk now. minus about half of the contractions. i suppose we could cut that down to minimal contractions if you want to make Horo more refined, yet not speaking in a way that few people know about (i assume people know Shakespearean english more than this half-half style) like "I am called Horo...". but yes, as Ulrezaj has said, japanese version is canon. so i'm just here giving some sort of an opinion but i'll follow whatever you guys agree on.

oh and seaghyn i have a sherlock book somewhere deep in my bookshelf. maybe i'll dig it out later and have a look.

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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by onizuka-gto »

seems like someone needs a english-to-english translator here.

:)
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barbsicle
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by barbsicle »

onizuka-gto wrote:seems like someone needs a english-to-english translator here.

:)
the great oni has just created a new job line.

english-to-english.

brilliant.

xD
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BASS in SPACE
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by BASS in SPACE »

Since the topic has been brought up, I have a question regarding Horo's use of "nusshi" (sp?). Can someone please explain to me what this is? The fansub (from Ayako) I was watching of this translated it as "master" which didn't make sense to me. Why would Horo call Lawrence her master? Judgment on the other hand translated it as "you" or "hey you" in the novel translations. Some Ayako staff must have read the RAW Japanese novels too, because there were little novel information snippets at the end of each episode that they had put in, so it's not like they made up "master"...I think. So hopefully someone can clear this up for me?
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barbsicle
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by barbsicle »

BASS in SPACE wrote:Since the topic has been brought up, I have a question regarding Horo's use of "nusshi" (sp?). Can someone please explain to me what this is? The fansub (from Ayako) I was watching of this translated it as "master" which didn't make sense to me. Why would Horo call Lawrence her master? Judgment on the other hand translated it as "you" or "hey you" in the novel translations. Some Ayako staff must have read the RAW Japanese novels too, because there were little novel information snippets at the end of each episode that they had put in, so it's not like they made up "master"...I think. So hopefully someone can clear this up for me?
i watched BSS subs, and its taken as "hey you". i wouldn't think it means master so yeah.

and then again, i don't translate from japanese so i have no clue.
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by ShApEsHiFt3r »

主 【ぬし】 (n) owner, master, lover, god, (P)
So there. To Horo, a semi-god, Lawrence is a higher being :o xD
I'm guessing it's some kind of old, more refined way of saying you. Like, not master, but you with a "higher" meaning. Perhaps You would be enough. I thought it's more disrespectful too, but when I checked jwpce it was translated like that :o
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BASS in SPACE
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by BASS in SPACE »

Ah I see, thanks for that guys. I guess I'll just take it as a way of referring to someone with more respect. It really was bugging me that Horo would refer to Lawrence as "master" so this makes sense. As ShhApEsHiFt3r said Lawrence is on a higher level than all other humans in Horo's eyes 8)
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barbsicle
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by barbsicle »

BASS in SPACE wrote:Ah I see, thanks for that guys. I guess I'll just take it as a way of referring to someone with more respect. It really was bugging me that Horo would refer to Lawrence as "master" so this makes sense. As ShhApEsHiFt3r said Lawrence is on a higher level than all other humans in Horo's eyes 8)
after all, she did promise that she would tell stories of him that only hold good words and which would be passed down through the generations for eternity. so yeah, i suppose that's a good comparison point to show how much Horo respects him.

but for me, i'm still going to leave it at "you". it does seem a bit ironic that she would call him in a respectful way when much of her speech directed at him is to tease or make fun of him. so i will leave it at that.


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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by onizuka-gto »

why don't you substitute the word to "sir" or "sire" which is an honourific of "you" to denote someone of respect, same status/equal or higher social rank.

it's certain sounds alot better then others of the same english words, i.e.

Master, Esquire (Medieval English/Modern use, USA for Lawyers only ), Mister & Lord
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by DissmalScientist »

This is just a suggestion due to the many times i saw the word/phrase 'bosom' used in the volume 3 translation ('she cried in my bosom').
It does a good job of conveying an image (Horo's face pressed to Lawrence's chest as she cries) but bosom usually, but not always, references breasts in English. So usually a man would not clasp something or someone to his bosom. Also the word is barely used in modern English.

My suggestion would be to replace the use of bosom with a less literal translation, add some stuff so you get the imagery we want while using language the reader will be a little more familiar with. When Lawrence is bragging to the rich kid about how Horo cried in his bosom, it might be better to say "During our travels Horo has cried in my arms three times" or "while being held by me, with her face pressed close to my heart." Something like that.
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barbsicle
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Re: Time to talk style guidelines

Post by barbsicle »

DissmalScientist wrote:This is just a suggestion due to the many times i saw the word/phrase 'bosom' used in the volume 3 translation ('she cried in my bosom').
It does a good job of conveying an image (Horo's face pressed to Lawrence's chest as she cries) but bosom usually, but not always, references breasts in English. So usually a man would not clasp something or someone to his bosom. Also the word is barely used in modern English.

My suggestion would be to replace the use of bosom with a less literal translation, add some stuff so you get the imagery we want while using language the reader will be a little more familiar with. When Lawrence is bragging to the rich kid about how Horo cried in his bosom, it might be better to say "During our travels Horo has cried in my arms three times" or "while being held by me, with her face pressed close to my heart." Something like that.
that you'll have to discuss with the volume 3 translator, judgment26, who's currently away in korea. he does frequent the animesuki thread more often though. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1745133)
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